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OfflineDeiymiyan
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O M G !!!!
    #2234638 - 01/11/04 12:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I just took a glance at something really interesting today..


I've heard of Aristotle [384-322 BC] before, but never never actually looked at any details before.


I specifically looked at the various governmental systems listed by Aristotle.



Here they are, in order from most LAWFUL to most LAWLESS:

1- Monarchy
2- Aristocracy
3- Constitutional Republic
4- Tyranny
5- Oligarchy
6- Democracy  :eek:



Last place !  Did you see that !? Democracy was listed at the bottom of the pile.

According to him, democracy = chaos.

To be QUITE HONEST,  I was rather shocked to read that..





Would anyone like to discuss the various pros and cons of these systems of government?


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Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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OfflinePHARMAKOS
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2234718 - 01/11/04 02:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

interesting that he uses the term less lawless. not less just or less 'good' or whatever. I could see the oppinion that sense every person has an equal say in government laws, then a criminals oppinion is entiteld to legal protection kindathing, so its like anarchy. Whereas in tyranny (which he put before democracy!) at least everyone must answer to the same source. Nevertheless pretty wierd


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Invisiblechodamunky
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Registered: 02/28/02
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2234720 - 01/11/04 02:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

it sure doesn't feel like choas...oh yea, we don't live in a democracy!


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2234833 - 01/11/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes you have realized that Aristotle , like Plato is a fascist. :smile:

Where do you think the word aristocracy comes from?????, fucking elitist whores :smile:(Plato, Aristotle)


I like Kant , Spinoza , Voltaire and others, but I am learning and changing all the time, still these three have merit no matter how much I change.

Psilo


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2234876 - 01/11/04 04:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think by lawless he means least totalitarian


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2234911 - 01/11/04 04:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"the best form of state will not admit mechanics to citizinship..."

"from the hour of their birth some are marked out for subjection, and others, for comand."


"it is better for all inferiors that they should be under the rule of a master"

Aristotle, what a dick :smile:

Long live Spinoza , Voltaire , KANT!


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Invisibletrendal Happy BirthdayM
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2234921 - 01/11/04 04:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The "problem" with true democracy is that there are no protections of rights of the individual or groups of individuals. The "rights" can just be voted away should 51% of the population choose to do so. Combine this with a reliance on mass-media for information...and you can see how "the mob" can be used to get whatever "the elite" want simply by convincing the mob that it is in their best interests.

This is actually stated in older versions of the US Army Training Manual...although in the 50's the definition of Democracy was changed in it to get rid of this "bad" definition.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: trendal]
    #2234933 - 01/11/04 04:54 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes , true, BUT, in a true democracy we would NEVER tolerate mass media, and to get to or stay on track with true democracy , mass media has to go. :smile:

-Psilo


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Invisibletrendal Happy BirthdayM
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2234946 - 01/11/04 05:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

A true democracy would make no provisions for holding back mass-media.

True democracy is not the answer. The Republic is the closest form of political system which provides for a Constitution/Bill of Rights that can not be simply voted away.


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: trendal]
    #2235029 - 01/11/04 05:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

psilo: Yes , true, BUT, in a true democracy we would NEVER tolerate mass media, and to get to or stay on track with true democracy , mass media has to go.

why?

trendal: that can not be simply voted away

is that a good thing?


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Invisibletrendal Happy BirthdayM
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Positronius]
    #2235067 - 01/11/04 06:20 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Well unless you think it's a good thing to be able to vote-away your Rights as stated in a Constitution...yes. :wink:


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: trendal]
    #2235075 - 01/11/04 06:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I do think its a good thing, sometimes. It depends on how esoteric the constitution is.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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Offlinedaba
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2235090 - 01/11/04 06:33 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Of course democracy is the most lawless. Things never get done.

In a monarchy or a Communist society, laws take effect immediately.


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: trendal]
    #2235103 - 01/11/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The constitution was never actually intended as a permanent fixture. Ben Franklin, who was near death at the time, only supported it because he felt that the country needed government, and government in a hurry if it was to survive. Many of the framers wished it to be updated and overhauled on a regular basis, some as often as once a year. They also included that nifty little passage that I love about how it is the duty of the citizenry to overthrow the government when it ceases to work to the benefit of the people. Not an exact quote, I don't have the constitution handy, but it's something like that.

Anyway, this is moot point. Our rights are being voted away, even though it's not legal. PATRIOT act like a motherfucker.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Positronius]
    #2235290 - 01/11/04 08:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"in a true democracy we would NEVER tolerate mass media"

Why not?
Do the majority of the people wish that mass media be destroyed?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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OfflineShizpow
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Phluck]
    #2235546 - 01/11/04 10:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Do the majority of the people wish that mass media be destroyed?"

I sure as hell do. Mass media = big business. I hope we're all in agreeance that nothing so sinister as Rupert Murdoch/Ted Turner's corporate news machines can be trusted to tell us the truth about a government that has made no qualms about pandering to the richest of the rich.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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Invisibletrendal Happy BirthdayM
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Shizpow]
    #2235547 - 01/11/04 11:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

You have to remember that you, and just about everyone else on this site, represents a very small demographic.

The vast majority of people have no problems with mass-media, and no idea that they should have a problem with it. On the contrary, most people trust the mass-media to a mind-boggling degree.


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: trendal]
    #2235582 - 01/11/04 11:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't that frightening? And it leads me to ask: If the public doesn't know what's good for them, what kind of authority are they to be voting? But of course that's the plan...shape the news, shape opinion, and steal the future.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2235585 - 01/11/04 11:25 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Let's talk about Monarchy for a bit.

A Monarchy is a form of government ruled by a monarch.

The dictionary defines a monarch as: one who reigns over a state or territory, usually for life and by hereditary right; a sole and absolute ruler; a sovereign, such as a king or empress.



What are some benefits and setbacks for this set-up?


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: O M G !!!! [Re: Deiymiyan]
    #2235617 - 01/11/04 11:47 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

An advantage of a monarchy would be the fact that a monarch would be trained from birth how to be an effective ruler. The negative side is that all the training in the world doesn't cure stupidity, and since a monarchy is hereditary, there's no way to ensure that the heir to the throne won't be a complete idiot. Also, they could be evil and power-hungry. Of course, stupidity and evil are problems in democracy anyway, so I'm not so sure it'd be all that different from what we have now. Seems to me that a constitutional monarchy and a constitutional republic or constitutional democracy wouldn't be all that different. It doesn't matter so much who's in charge, as long as there are checks and balances limiting what they can do.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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