|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 47 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22346827 - 10/07/15 06:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: What is your religion and why?
My response: At the present moment I am obliged to call myself an atheist however I cannot say that God/Gods does not exist. I do my best to be a reasonable person by applying a scientific method of thought to what reality is and to what it all means in life and beyond. I personally have not seen any evidence to suggest a belief in any God is true.
When I look at religion the first fact I notice is that there are over 2500 historically catalogued Gods and Deities that have existed throughout mankind. From Osiris to Zeus to the Rainbow Serpent of Australia, numerous cultural identities have produce thousands of ideas about how the Earth and Universe were made and why we are all here.
Thousands of years ago in the time periods of these religions, the civilisations were primitive. They were far more tribalistic and did not have anywhere near as much of the knowledge, technology and capability that we as humans have today. One of the greatest examples of religion is in the ancient Incan Aztec Empires where many believed that sacrificing the blood of the living is what affected the growth of their crops, as a result they sacrificed 10,000's of people to their Gods in an attempt make it rain and fertilise the crops or to simply appease them. The brutal truth is that these people were ignorant of the facts. They did not know the nature of the Earth, the chemistry, biology or geology of the Earth. Nature impacted every aspect of the lives of Aztecs so they tried to explain it and did so through religion. It was something they could accept.
Ambiguity is a terrible feeling but it's exactly what you get when nature makes an impact on your life. Tornados, earthquakes, cyclones and death can make a mess of anyone's life. In difficult times acceptance is a good way to start healing and when you have the idea of a God to rely it makes the emotional toll easier to deal with. God was a shoulder to lean on in hard times but their belief in the afterlife came at the cost sacrificing countless lives for no purpose in reality other than ignorance.
"It is possible that around 20,000 people were sacrificed a year in the Aztec Empire. Special occasions demanded more blood – when a new temple to Huitzilopochtli was dedicated in 1487, an estimated 80,400 people were sacrificed".-Answered by one of our Q&A experts, Rupert Matthews.
They did not understand evolution, genetics or any aspect of biology that related them to nature. Evolution does not explain the origin of life itself, it explains the origin of the diversity life which gives a clear line on why there is so much life in nature.
When a deer has died its body decomposes and is reabsorbed into the system of nature. My belief on the afterlife is, "When you know where you come from you know where you go."
Evidence would have us believe that life is not eternal, if you want to have God as a shoulder to lean on I respect your right to do so but I would recommend to keep in mind the facts if you really want to know what reality is. Reality is far more magical than any novel we've written, "A teaspoon of degenerate neutronium gas would have a mass of two billion tonnes".
I don't know if referencing the past can be considered objective 
The Aztec Empire for example did a great many things and yet you, the subject, hand picked a few things to support your "objective" case. Not only that but you subsequently interpreted these events definitively - this is what they were doing and why. IMO that's a huge mistake with history and turns what was already biased into callused bias.
In this reference link alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#The_52-year_cycle there are multiple explanations for human sacrifice that do not concur with your own.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22346960 - 10/07/15 07:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, I have to agree with you, Kickle. His conclusions are way oversimplified and simply wrong in an attempt to appear objective, which is not what is happening.
What makes you think modern society is so automatically superior to antiquity in general? We sacrifice thousands today. It's called sending them to Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan in phony wars generated to profiteer and bloat the military-industrial-complex. Which was, I would point out, the primary business of science overall during the twentieth century, in terms of expenditures. And we send them over to Vietnam to expose them to a wonderful chemical called "Agent Orange" -- a defoliant -- which results in thousands of cases of prostate cancer, leading to many more deaths.
Watch out on your generalizations, sudly. It's not as easy as you think.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22347007 - 10/07/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
DQ & Kickle - you boys have both pointed out what I felt to be missing from this argument but couldn't quite put my finger on! Kudos to you both!!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22347151 - 10/07/15 07:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I generalise because it's a complicated topic and most people wouldn't think enough to recognise the overall picture.
In referencing the past I am stating facts that have happened, it isn't my opinion that these things happened.
As for the sacrifices themselves there were far more reasons for sacrifices than appeasing the Sun god for crops, they had multiple gods, festivities, traditions, beliefs, ceremonies etc that integrated sacrifice to different extents but they all share the commonality that they where done for religious reasons and did not have an actual impact on reality/mechanisms of nature.
It's true that the Aztecs had great civilisations and ingenuity for their time, I admire most if not all of their architecture, sculpting, artwork, poetry, agriculture etc.
What makes you think modern society is so automatically superior to antiquity in general?
It's true that we still make sacrifices in modern times to achieve things but as a majority they are not done for metaphysical reasons. We're not supposed to go to war because a god told us to or that another nation has a different god.
That's the difference between the past and now. We've mostly stopped using religion as the reason for our actions.
In the end my point still stands,'The Aztecs sacrificed childrens hearts to the Sun because they believed it would affect the growth of their crops.'
While the examples we see in modern times have diversified, the underlying fact of ignorance of the mechanisms of nature is still prevalent in religion today.
To answer your question directly: I don't believe modern society is entirely superior in mentality, our superiority comes mostly from technological advancements.
@Kickle: I hope you know why the 52 year cycle occurred in the first place because I certainly do. It was done because of a religious belief that the world would end, that the mechanisms of nature would be changed due to their religion.
That is a prime example of the ignorance in religion of nature that I am referring to.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (10/07/15 07:51 PM)
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22347169 - 10/07/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
the underlying fact of ignorance of the mechanisms of nature is still prevalent in religion today.
Science, too.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 47 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22347210 - 10/07/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I generalise because it's a complicated topic and most people wouldn't think enough to recognise the overall picture.
I'm calling BS. Try us
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22347256 - 10/07/15 07:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I just did? I don't think try us is a response..
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22347269 - 10/07/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Science doesn't understand it perfectly but it's still making amazing progress and is well beyond the religious understanding of nature.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 47 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22347355 - 10/07/15 08:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
As for the sacrifices themselves there were far more reasons for sacrifices than appeasing the Sun god for crops, they had multiple gods, festivities, traditions, beliefs, ceremonies etc that integrated sacrifice to different extents but they all share the commonality that they where done for religious reasons and did not have an actual impact on reality/mechanisms of nature.
evidence? I read the references you posted. There are theories citing political reasons, overpopulation reasons, hunger reasons, etc. You continue to claim that it was religious ideation alone. That's over-simplification even of your own sources.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22347383 - 10/07/15 08:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: It's true that we still make sacrifices in modern times to achieve things but as a majority they are not done for metaphysical reasons. We're not supposed to go to war because a god told us to or that another nation has a different god.
It was my impression that the US war machine has sprung into action a few times of late because of 'God' telling US presidents to order it to do so?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 47 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22347427 - 10/07/15 08:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
sudly said: It's true that we still make sacrifices in modern times to achieve things but as a majority they are not done for metaphysical reasons. We're not supposed to go to war because a god told us to or that another nation has a different god.
It was my impression that the US war machine has sprung into action a few times of late because of 'God' telling US presidents to order it to do so?
yeah see even when we have first hand experience with this crap it's hard to tell what's going on. a political entity who espouses religious platitude while economic reasons cannot be ignored 
now let's try and lay that trip on the past, into a very different culture, and come to solid conclusions
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22351510 - 10/08/15 06:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Pretty much anything you look up on the Aztecs will tell you how they sacrificed to appease/feed their gods. http://www.ancient.eu/Aztec_Sacrifice/ http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-sacrifice.html http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp264-ss13/2013/04/25/aztec-human-sacrifice/
Again, the underlying commonality of the various types of sacrifice is an attempt to appease a god.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#22351521 - 10/08/15 07:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Some politicians, more so right minded conservatives use God as a reasoning for their actions. No gay rights, no abortions, no womans rights (Saudi Arabia) etc. This is the problem I've been attempting to highlight and it doesn't seem like you disagree.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,807
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22351542 - 10/08/15 07:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Historically religion was far more prevalent in political structures and had far more influence too. It's only in the past 200 years that secularism has had a growing popularity and society has been making ethical improvements.
Treating others as you would want to be treated. The less religion in politics the better the country seems to be, Eastern Europe and countries like Sweden are beautiful examples of what secular societies are capable of.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
|
Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 47 minutes, 59 seconds
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22353355 - 10/09/15 06:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
sudly said: Some politicians, more so right minded conservatives use God as a reasoning for their actions. No gay rights, no abortions, no womans rights (Saudi Arabia) etc. This is the problem I've been attempting to highlight and it doesn't seem like you disagree.
The key word here is "some"
I don't disagree that the world is and has been full of problems. I disagree that there is some object called religion at root. As I've said a few times there were theories in the links posted suggesting that many factors likely played a role in the practice of human sacrifice. Just as many factors play in our current world. And as you've now suggested with political parties, not every individual responds to those factors in the same way.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
Posts: 7,426
Loc: The Pathless Path
|
Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Kickle]
#22353429 - 10/09/15 07:11 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I just want to add time is Definetely not a human made idea... or concept.. you think time didnt exist before humans? We barely even know what time is what your refering to as a concept is the idea of us MEASURING time , its relative time flows differently depending on where your at in the universe
--------------------
 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
|
|