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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife.
#22338097 - 10/05/15 06:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is your religion and why?
My response: At the present moment I am obliged to call myself an atheist however I cannot say that God/Gods does not exist. I do my best to be a reasonable person by applying a scientific method of thought to what reality is and to what it all means in life and beyond. I personally have not seen any evidence to suggest a belief in any God is true.
When I look at religion the first fact I notice is that there are over 2500 historically catalogued Gods and Deities that have existed throughout mankind. From Osiris to Zeus to the Rainbow Serpent of Australia, numerous cultural identities have produce thousands of ideas about how the Earth and Universe were made and why we are all here.
Thousands of years ago in the time periods of these religions, the civilisations were primitive. They were far more tribalistic and did not have anywhere near as much of the knowledge, technology and capability that we as humans have today. One of the greatest examples of religion is in the ancient Incan Aztec Empires where many believed that sacrificing the blood of the living is what affected the growth of their crops, as a result they sacrificed 10,000's of people to their Gods in an attempt make it rain and fertilise the crops or to simply appease them. The brutal truth is that these people were ignorant of the facts. They did not know the nature of the Earth, the chemistry, biology or geology of the Earth. Nature impacted every aspect of the lives of Aztecs so they tried to explain it and did so through religion. It was something they could accept.
Ambiguity is a terrible feeling but it's exactly what you get when nature makes an impact on your life. Tornados, earthquakes, cyclones and death can make a mess of anyone's life. In difficult times acceptance is a good way to start healing and when you have the idea of a God to rely it makes the emotional toll easier to deal with. God was a shoulder to lean on in hard times but their belief in the afterlife came at the cost sacrificing countless lives for no purpose in reality other than ignorance.
"It is possible that around 20,000 people were sacrificed a year in the Aztec Empire. Special occasions demanded more blood – when a new temple to Huitzilopochtli was dedicated in 1487, an estimated 80,400 people were sacrificed".-Answered by one of our Q&A experts, Rupert Matthews.
They did not understand evolution, genetics or any aspect of biology that related them to nature. Evolution does not explain the origin of life itself, it explains the origin of the diversity life which gives a clear line on why there is so much life in nature.
When a deer has died its body decomposes and is reabsorbed into the system of nature. My belief on the afterlife is, "When you know where you come from you know where you go."
Evidence would have us believe that life is not eternal, if you want to have God as a shoulder to lean on I respect your right to do so but I would recommend to keep in mind the facts if you really want to know what reality is. Reality is far more magical than any novel we've written, "A teaspoon of degenerate neutronium gas would have a mass of two billion tonnes".
References: http://www.historyextra.com/qa/how-many-people-did-aztecs-sacrifice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutronium
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (10/05/15 07:24 PM)
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HardTrippin
The Ambivalent



Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1,303
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22338143 - 10/05/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm agnostic (leaning towards theism), but I must point out that just because people have been wrong about God and God's wishes (if God has wishes) it does not follow that there is no God. I personally think religions have their roots in mystical experiences, and just because people interpret God differently and fail in communicating the ineffable, I don't think that shows that there is no God (only that it is so unlikely as to be almost impossible that anyone's conception of God is correct (if indeed there is a God)).
I used to be an atheist but the more I philosophize and learn about the limits of what science has told us about the universe the more inclined I am to believe there must have been some sort of intentional force behind the universe that is not subject to the laws of the universe as we know them. The scientific theory that nothing comes from nothing is simply an admission that the universe may have been spawned from something we cannot understand or observe.
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"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338222 - 10/05/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'll add that I believe the driving force behind the universe and all that happens in nature is coincidence and the only reason it means something to people is because of synchronicity.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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HardTrippin
The Ambivalent



Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1,303
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22338283 - 10/05/15 07:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I'll add that I believe the driving force behind the universe and all that happens in nature is coincidence and the only reason it means something to people is because of synchronicity.
Coincidence by it's very nature is not a thing in itself. Coincidence requires at least two other coinciding things or events, and so it cannot be a cause of the universe.
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"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338292 - 10/05/15 07:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The cause of the universe I do not claim to know but coincidence explains the meaning behind why things happen. Why did a cloud form? A coincidence of pressure/humidity.
Coincidence doesn't say how, it says why.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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HardTrippin
The Ambivalent



Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1,303
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Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338334 - 10/05/15 07:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You seem now to be arguing that people are likely to believe in God because they experience synchronicity and attribute it to God, but you haven't actually touched the reasons for why there might in fact be a God.
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"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338357 - 10/05/15 07:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Neither have you, I'm not arguing for why there might be a god, i'm stating my reasoning for why I believe there is not.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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HardTrippin
The Ambivalent



Registered: 11/05/09
Posts: 1,303
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338387 - 10/05/15 08:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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And I was giving you reason not to be as sure of your belief as you were before. I'm hardly going to try to prove there is a God either. If there was conclusive evidence for the existence or non-existence of God it would have been thought of by now. There are good reasons for both beliefs, and to say things like "if you want to have God as a shoulder to lean on I respect your right to do so" indicates you are more sure of your belief than you seem to want to suggest. You say you respect the right of people to "have a shoulder to lean on" but to even put it that way is to mock people who believe in God. It is to say they only believe because they are afraid. This is simply not true.
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"To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment" - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: HardTrippin]
#22338547 - 10/05/15 08:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I cannot disprove a negative so I can not claim with certainty that a God does not exist, I can only say that I believe one does not from the evidence I've seen.
The Aztecs sacrificed childrens hearts to the Sun because they believed it would affect the growth of their crops. The point I'm making is their gross ignorance of reality due to a religious ideology.
Ignorance just means they didn't know the truth, they didn't know it was precipitation and weather patterns that produced rain.
I believe the same ignorance to facts of nature is prevalent in modern religions too. Evolution deniers, climate deniers, fossil deniers etc.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly] 2
#22343121 - 10/06/15 09:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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some thoughts on the matter of "a personal God" as proposed by the main 3 mid eastern monotheistic religions.
hot and cold are concepts good and bad are concepts
perhaps they may be identified as concepts by the fact that they have opposites there is no hot without cold, for example, they are mutually interdependent.
As such concepts neither exist nor do they not exist.
temperature is not a concept - it is measurable 36º F is not a concept a specific table is not a concept
'God' is a concept the opposite is 'Godless', as in a 'Godless' universe. God is not measurable, or perceivable and has no agreed upon identifiable characteristics ; as such it is an abstraction and abstractions neither exist nor do they not exist. does the number 3 exist, if so where is it?
'God' may even be said to be a collection of concepts about which various theologies and religions and sects within a religion disagree as to what to include.
It seems to me the whole question as to "wether 'god' Exists?", is misguided and a logical error of imprecise thinking. Time has no color. Sound has no smell. Time is not hard or soft, it is not tangible - it cannot be touched. It certainly has no feelings or purpose. Color is a measurable because we have eyes. Existence is a measure of the kinesthetic sense. Tangible objects have weight. Objects have characteristics, but characteristics are not objects. Abstractions, having no measurable characteristics cannot be said to exist or not exist. It is the wrong measure for the category.
Life is a brutal affair, ending in death, for all living creatures. Most are eaten by others. Many while they are still alive. About half of life forms are parasitic. All creatures, suffer from occasional disease, eventual decrepitude, and various pains during the course of life, before finally dying. That's obviously the way it is, God, or no God, or Gods …
Apparently some folks whose lives are less ruled by reason find it comforting to take a collection of hypothetical characteristics they (and their friends and/or family and/or country and/or tribe) approve of and objectify them. The linguistic process by which this done is called reification.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=reification&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=reification&sc=9-11&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=3130B86AFD89447CB13AB870A37C6B00
The linguistic process by which this is done is also called nominalization.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=nominalization&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=nominalization&sc=9-14&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=E5D5276A914E42E6BB8581377AFC2C7D
As humans we easily fall into a sort of hypnosis, because of these linguistic processes.
E-Prime (which obviously never caught on) seems an attempt to deal with a similar issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: laughingdog]
#22343527 - 10/06/15 11:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: It seems to me the whole question as to "wether 'god' Exists?", is misguided and a logical error of imprecise thinking.
Now that, I like.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: laughingdog] 1
#22343921 - 10/07/15 02:56 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The number 3 only exists as a concept because it is inside the human mind, it is not a physical entity, it is an idea. Same goes for time, a man made concept. The problem arises when people claim that these concepts such as god can have an affect on tangibly reality. Prayer, miracles, afterlife etc.
This is the kind of ignorance that allows for behaviors such as sacrificing childrens hearts, suicide bombing and generic religious bigotry. (anti gays etc)
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Jaegar
Formless One



Registered: 05/04/09
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22343927 - 10/07/15 03:01 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sounds good. But let's not sound mathematics short.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,805
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Jaegar]
#22343939 - 10/07/15 03:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Care to explain what you mean by mathematics short?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Jaegar
Formless One



Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 2,217
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22343954 - 10/07/15 03:30 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Never mind I shotgun post without reading any context or history.
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Jaegar
Formless One



Registered: 05/04/09
Posts: 2,217
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22343961 - 10/07/15 03:40 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I agree with you presentation.
I also wonder if beliefs taught early without a critical brain component to filter or discriminate leads to so much intellectual dissonance when older.
Maybe this dissonance can even thrive like a split hemisphere. I would infer biological interference.
Edited by Jaegar (10/07/15 03:45 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: laughingdog]
#22344532 - 10/07/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: some thoughts on the matter of "a personal God" as proposed by the main 3 mid eastern monotheistic religions.
hot and cold are concepts good and bad are concepts
perhaps they may be identified as concepts by the fact that they have opposites there is no hot without cold, for example, they are mutually interdependent.
As such concepts neither exist nor do they not exist.
temperature is not a concept - it is measurable 36º F is not a concept a specific table is not a concept
'God' is a concept the opposite is 'Godless', as in a 'Godless' universe. God is not measurable, or perceivable and has no agreed upon identifiable characteristics ; as such it is an abstraction and abstractions neither exist nor do they not exist. does the number 3 exist, if so where is it?
'God' may even be said to be a collection of concepts about which various theologies and religions and sects within a religion disagree as to what to include.
It seems to me the whole question as to "wether 'god' Exists?", is misguided and a logical error of imprecise thinking. Time has no color. Sound has no smell. Time is not hard or soft, it is not tangible - it cannot be touched. It certainly has no feelings or purpose. Color is a measurable because we have eyes. Existence is a measure of the kinesthetic sense. Tangible objects have weight. Objects have characteristics, but characteristics are not objects. Abstractions, having no measurable characteristics cannot be said to exist or not exist. It is the wrong measure for the category.
Life is a brutal affair, ending in death, for all living creatures. Most are eaten by others. Many while they are still alive. About half of life forms are parasitic. All creatures, suffer from occasional disease, eventual decrepitude, and various pains during the course of life, before finally dying. That's obviously the way it is, God, or no God, or Gods …
Apparently some folks whose lives are less ruled by reason find it comforting to take a collection of hypothetical characteristics they (and their friends and/or family and/or country and/or tribe) approve of and objectify them. The linguistic process by which this done is called reification.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=reification&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=reification&sc=9-11&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=3130B86AFD89447CB13AB870A37C6B00
The linguistic process by which this is done is also called nominalization.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=nominalization&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=nominalization&sc=9-14&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=E5D5276A914E42E6BB8581377AFC2C7D
As humans we easily fall into a sort of hypnosis, because of these linguistic processes.
E-Prime (which obviously never caught on) seems an attempt to deal with a similar issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-Prime
Nice thinking. The concept is not the object = The menu is not the meal = "Whatever you say a thing is, it isn't."
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: sudly]
#22344667 - 10/07/15 10:23 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: The cause of the universe I do not claim to know but coincidence explains the meaning behind why things happen. Why did a cloud form? A coincidence of pressure/humidity.
Coincidence doesn't say how, it says why.
Sudly you're a gem.
The time span we refer to as our life does not exist any more objectively than a the god we lack evidence for or the number three, they are human symbols housed in human minds. What is our life and what does that word represent to us? The collection of our memories and experiences?
It seems almost compulsive for a mind who's existence is comprised of experiences and memories to assert self-assuredly that after the end of experience there is just more experience. Seems pretty natural, like a safety-blanket we have installed into us in the case we decide to use it.
Reminds me of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. Several time throughout the series when characters would say goodbye in instances where soon death was either highly likely or imminent they would wish each other well with the phrase "See you in the clearing at the end of the path." This simply phrase sums up very well to me the essence of this anxiety and the security blanket we're discussing. It's like breaking this complex question of ceasing experience down into basic shapes for the brain to handle. We are moving through time, we are alive, we are on the path. Everyone has their path, some paths cross and some are longer but they all end at the clearing.
This is a nice thought, it soothes me, and as someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife I still enjoy the thought. It's simple, and when I'm soothed I understand why people curl up in the security blanket. I get why the brain clings on to the only thing it knows: Life, and why it can only seem assume there will be more. It takes energy to look into the abyss, and often our bodies don't like it and we need to overcome consequent anxieties.
The thing is as long as this doesn't impose on someone's behaviors in any negative fashion it's not really any of my business and I'm not convinced our species has truly found any reason this reflex. It likely reduces stress, increases meaning, and has a high survival rate from people in that paradigm. I don't think belief in the afterlife is going anywhere soon and I'm not convinced as a species we're ready to drop it.
Religion helps to make the world the shit-show it is, but if you want to really see a shit-show why don't we terrify the masses by educating them on the seemingly harsh reality of things. That'll bring out the rationality.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22344676 - 10/07/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nice thinking. The concept is not the object = The menu is not the meal = "Whatever you say a thing is, it isn't."
The map is not the territory.
Hey who said that? SWAMI? Is that you?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: An objective view of religion and the reasoning behind my lack of belief in the afterlife. [Re: Tropism]
#22344904 - 10/07/15 11:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Korzybski
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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