|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Knowledge
#22333020 - 10/04/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What is the one thing that can be know for certain? No metaphysics no philosophy no theory nothing what is the brute fact that cannot be denied? Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
Edited by soldatheero (10/04/15 02:33 PM)
|
lordhazil
Stranger

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 45
Loc: Israel
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
|
|
I'd say that the only thing I can truly know as an undeniable fact is that I exist. I might not exist in the sense that I think I do. Everything I experience might very well be a hallucination, but I nevertheless experience, and therefore I exist. Aside from that, I can just think and believe.
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
|
Exactly. Being exists there is no question about it, our experience exists and we cannot deny this. So every scientist and philosopher trying to uncover the nature of reality should start from this point. We have experience and we are trying to explain that experience, that is the pursuit of knowledge.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
lighttheway
Space Hitchhiker


Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 29
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
|
The Merkabah. You have it within you.
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
|
Existence itself!!
|
Swarupa

Registered: 10/13/15
Posts: 61
|
|
We know beyond certainty that we are aware, that we exist, yet when we question it cannot say with any certainty what exactly that existence is.
It's a bit of paradox, as we are all undeniably aware, yet at the same time unable to define what awareness is.
So i don't think we can know any thing for certain, at least not as we usually know things, as separate from ourselves. I feel that all i can know for certain is what i can not accept or reject as true or untrue, what is.
Edited by Swarupa (10/14/15 01:09 PM)
|
Devizome
A friend


Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 140
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
|
|
If Science is going to make any real progress in the future, subjective experience must be valued more so than it is presently.
-------------------- Love & Respect, Devin
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said: What is the one thing that can be know for certain? No metaphysics no philosophy no theory nothing what is the brute fact that cannot be denied? Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
nothing i can think of homey i can deny you exist  i can deny I exist  i can deny any word you put out there not that it matters you can just deny them back in a never ending denial
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22380731 - 10/14/15 08:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
LOL..I and you must understand that the Denial must reach a point where you don't exist at all...and than the supreme denial would be to never exist again..
True nihilism starts in a place and only ends in perfect nothingness..
I've tried to do everything to reduce myself to only the most little of everything little..
I actually realized that when I was reduced to a circle of light and i was that light..that the next step of being the Creator in perfect peace..was the only knowledge I knew..and I could not therefore understand anything else..
It was a revelation for me because I realized that the true knowledge of nothingness is what pure consciousness would be without any Data/information at all..
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Might be. I thought your post was good and similar to my experience
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22380868 - 10/14/15 09:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
othing i can think of homey i can deny you exist  i can deny I exist  i can deny any word you put out there not that it matters you can just deny them back in a never ending denial
I don't agree with this. You can deny that "you" exist as a separate distinct self or deny your ego. What cannot be denied however is that there is an experience occurring, even if there is no distinct and continuous self. It is not reasonable to deny experience, it is self-evident. Even if you try to do so you have to acknowledge that denial of experience is at least occurring.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
turtles all the way down you can say you are experiencing something but that doesn't really say anything at all
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22381055 - 10/14/15 09:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
what do you mean, if I told you I am experiencing that means nothing to you? Technically you can deny that other people have experience, its not a reasonable belief but it cannot actually be known directly. Your own personal experience on there hand, that you yourself are having an experience you cannot deny. If you think you can you are in some sort of intellectual trap or something or just aren't being honest with yourself.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
It means nothing to me. And that's a good thing IMO.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22381158 - 10/14/15 10:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Can you elaborate? Not sure what you are getting at here.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Nothing. I don't have a point. Simply: my answer to your question is experience is unknowable imo and that I'm good not knowing experience, not making it a thing to know, or even having it be pursuable as knowable. No sense in trying to experience experience sort of deal for me. That's one too many steps when I don't even need to step
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22381301 - 10/14/15 10:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
"my answer to your question is experience is unknowable "
but what do you mean by know or not know experience, understand it? all I am saying is that we can identify that it exists.. we can all acknowledge that it is occurring and this cannot by any logic or reason be denied.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 2,814
Loc: Northland, New Zealand.
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
|
Death. Impermanence.
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head



Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
|
|
Strangely the only reality is ecstasy or love. Somehow it goes unrecognized, and we generally mistreat each other, sometimes on a mass scale. It comes to the fore when the mind is silenced. I guess this is why religion was founded in the first place, to explain this to people, but has since stagnated into ... SOMETHING, ... I mean, I don't even know what religion is anymore. Why it's not now illegal is beyond me.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
|
FishOilTheKid
Ascended



Registered: 11/14/10
Posts: 5,401
Last seen: 2 days, 7 hours
|
|
Quote:
Why it's not now illegal is beyond me.
WORD
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said: we can all acknowledge that it is occurring and this cannot by any logic or reason be denied.
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said: What is the one thing that can be know for certain? No metaphysics no philosophy no theory nothing what is the brute fact that cannot be denied? Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
To 'know' is to measure/limit. What this here experience is including knowings, but what it 'is' is mystery that cannot be pinned down by a boundary of knowing no matter how complex such knowing or knowingS may be
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22384628 - 10/15/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
soldatheero said: we can all acknowledge that it is occurring and this cannot by any logic or reason be denied.
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
Hmmm, Ive been thinking about this hard for several seconds.
Logic can or cant heal you..or make you feel good..or peaceful etc...
So logic is therefore Good..(secretly think about this until you understand)
But if your saying that since its plain to see..that you dont need to extend your self any further and then therefore: The attempts to make existence into a knowable object are misguided...
So Im thinking that you actually dont pretend to be a Nihilist, but more of a pragmatist..
Am I right?
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22386426 - 10/15/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
You are acknowledging that exists exists tho no? isn't that what can be known, that there is existance? I am just saying existence and experience are synonymous.. existence is an experience, it is because of experience that we can be sure that existence exists.
what needs to be explained is how that experience has come about, that is what philosophy is.
The materialist claims that this experience has come about because of the objects of his senses, the objects he is experiencing ie) his body, his brain
This is a theory to explain experience. Experience is what we know.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Am I right?
Lol As close As before.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22387642 - 10/16/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: turtles all the way down you can say you are experiencing something but that doesn't really say anything at all
Why does that not say anything at all? Take it at face value: there is an experience. Nothing more or less to read into that.
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
|
Yeah exactly, thank you.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
That wasn't the premise of the thread. Not to mention we are in the philosophy forum for debate. Anyone can make any statement and then say take it at face value. Why post it here if that's what you want?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
soldatheero
lastirishman


Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22388799 - 10/16/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Explain how that is it not the premise of the thread? I asked what is it that we can know for certain.
Experience is the one thing we can know for certain, we know there is an experience occurring. You don't need any theories or thinking to reaffirm that fact, it is just self-evident.
Even something such as "I will one day die" is something you infer or have learnt from others, it therefore is not self-evident. Experience is self-evident every second and every moment.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Perhaps what Kickle is saying is that the statement "I exist" only has meaning as communication, and when you get to the level of communication, all sorts of problems and entanglements emerge when it comes to trying to sort out the ontology of things. In that sense, I agree with him.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Bingo. the words in this thread are loaded with meaning. meaning provided by each individual. i chose not to load it with meaning and i get told to take it at face value. which IMO only proves the point.
here is me loading it with meaning: no one needs to "know" they exist in order to exist the knowledge part of the equation is more to do with ego formation than existing IMO
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390160 - 10/16/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think you have to communicate it. Its an internal understanding. Sure, the communication is suspect. You can claim you experience all you like and I can deny your claim. I can't deny my experience to myself. I suspect you can't really deny your experience to yourself either.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
Denial is a common coping mechanism, one which my mind has certainly employed at times
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390200 - 10/16/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What does it help you cope with in this case?
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390221 - 10/16/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Also, the fact that you call it a coping mechanism seems to undermine its authenticity. Is that what you meant to do?
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 2 minutes, 18 seconds
|
|
I threw in coping mechanism to distinguish it, contextually, from prior uses of the word. Denial as a coping mechanism has its own psychological definition.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
|
Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22393557 - 10/17/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I think the Hero Archetype..is the only thing that attempts to answer these questions..maybe along with the Father and Mother Archetype..which are trying to Raise the Hero/Son..
So to do battle with these questions is subjective..and at best you can either devise a strategy to one up people..like what I am doing..Or totally deny everything said in every post as a Nihilist..
I think the one up..and Nihilism are both a type of Heroic Effort..
And to merry both of the subjectivisms..I think are part of a natural extension for living life to the fullest..
Now imagine having both?? As above so below..is where I have my temple..and the Mountain is where I go..
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
Awareness.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said: What is the one thing that can be know for certain? ... Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
I do not accept your premise that there is such a thing.
In the vernacular that might be what it means "to go down the rabbit hole". To confront letting go of the need for certainty.
Actually thousands of years ago Chuang-Tzu, 369—298 B.C.E. gave us the best metaphor, in my opinion:
"Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awakened, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. ..."
I have a dream in which I woke up only to later 'really' awaken. I was sure it's not an uncommon experience - so I looked it up:
"A false awakening is a vivid and convincing dream about awakening from sleep, while the dreamer in reality continues to sleep. After a false awakening, subjects often dream they are performing daily morning rituals such as cooking, cleaning and eating. A subset of false awakenings, namely those in which one dreams that one has awoken from sleep that featured dreams, take on aspects of a double dream or a dream within a dream. A classic example is the double false awakening of the protagonist in Gogol's Portrait (1835)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening
https://www.bing.com/search?q=awakenings+within+a+dream&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=awakenings+within+a+dream&sc=0-20&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=ab43ba72ba504408a61daabfa74f0b58
Also people cannot define any of the following: time consciousness life self numbers thought mind
"I was like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." Isaac Newton ----------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." and "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Einstein ---------------- So certainty isn't what it's cracked up to be. All the fanatics have it. And that's certain?
|
|