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Kickle
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Quote:
soldatheero said: we can all acknowledge that it is occurring and this cannot by any logic or reason be denied.
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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zzripz
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Quote:
soldatheero said: What is the one thing that can be know for certain? No metaphysics no philosophy no theory nothing what is the brute fact that cannot be denied? Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
To 'know' is to measure/limit. What this here experience is including knowings, but what it 'is' is mystery that cannot be pinned down by a boundary of knowing no matter how complex such knowing or knowingS may be
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22384628 - 10/15/15 05:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
soldatheero said: we can all acknowledge that it is occurring and this cannot by any logic or reason be denied.
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
Hmmm, Ive been thinking about this hard for several seconds.
Logic can or cant heal you..or make you feel good..or peaceful etc...
So logic is therefore Good..(secretly think about this until you understand)
But if your saying that since its plain to see..that you dont need to extend your self any further and then therefore: The attempts to make existence into a knowable object are misguided...
So Im thinking that you actually dont pretend to be a Nihilist, but more of a pragmatist..
Am I right?
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soldatheero
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22386426 - 10/15/15 11:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ive denied it a few times and think your royal we is BS i have no idea what "it" is. what "existence" is. and think that attempts to turn existence into a knowable object are misguided
You are acknowledging that exists exists tho no? isn't that what can be known, that there is existance? I am just saying existence and experience are synonymous.. existence is an experience, it is because of experience that we can be sure that existence exists.
what needs to be explained is how that experience has come about, that is what philosophy is.
The materialist claims that this experience has come about because of the objects of his senses, the objects he is experiencing ie) his body, his brain
This is a theory to explain experience. Experience is what we know.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Kickle
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
Am I right?
Lol As close As before.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22387642 - 10/16/15 09:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: turtles all the way down you can say you are experiencing something but that doesn't really say anything at all
Why does that not say anything at all? Take it at face value: there is an experience. Nothing more or less to read into that.
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soldatheero
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Yeah exactly, thank you.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Kickle
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That wasn't the premise of the thread. Not to mention we are in the philosophy forum for debate. Anyone can make any statement and then say take it at face value. Why post it here if that's what you want?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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soldatheero
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22388799 - 10/16/15 03:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Explain how that is it not the premise of the thread? I asked what is it that we can know for certain.
Experience is the one thing we can know for certain, we know there is an experience occurring. You don't need any theories or thinking to reaffirm that fact, it is just self-evident.
Even something such as "I will one day die" is something you infer or have learnt from others, it therefore is not self-evident. Experience is self-evident every second and every moment.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Perhaps what Kickle is saying is that the statement "I exist" only has meaning as communication, and when you get to the level of communication, all sorts of problems and entanglements emerge when it comes to trying to sort out the ontology of things. In that sense, I agree with him.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kickle
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Bingo. the words in this thread are loaded with meaning. meaning provided by each individual. i chose not to load it with meaning and i get told to take it at face value. which IMO only proves the point.
here is me loading it with meaning: no one needs to "know" they exist in order to exist the knowledge part of the equation is more to do with ego formation than existing IMO
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390160 - 10/16/15 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't think you have to communicate it. Its an internal understanding. Sure, the communication is suspect. You can claim you experience all you like and I can deny your claim. I can't deny my experience to myself. I suspect you can't really deny your experience to yourself either.
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Kickle
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Denial is a common coping mechanism, one which my mind has certainly employed at times
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390200 - 10/16/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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What does it help you cope with in this case?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22390221 - 10/16/15 08:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also, the fact that you call it a coping mechanism seems to undermine its authenticity. Is that what you meant to do?
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Kickle
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I threw in coping mechanism to distinguish it, contextually, from prior uses of the word. Denial as a coping mechanism has its own psychological definition.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Kickle]
#22393557 - 10/17/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think the Hero Archetype..is the only thing that attempts to answer these questions..maybe along with the Father and Mother Archetype..which are trying to Raise the Hero/Son..
So to do battle with these questions is subjective..and at best you can either devise a strategy to one up people..like what I am doing..Or totally deny everything said in every post as a Nihilist..
I think the one up..and Nihilism are both a type of Heroic Effort..
And to merry both of the subjectivisms..I think are part of a natural extension for living life to the fullest..
Now imagine having both?? As above so below..is where I have my temple..and the Mountain is where I go..
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MarkostheGnostic
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Awareness.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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laughingdog
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Quote:
soldatheero said: What is the one thing that can be know for certain? ... Think in regards to the question of the nature of reality.
I do not accept your premise that there is such a thing.
In the vernacular that might be what it means "to go down the rabbit hole". To confront letting go of the need for certainty.
Actually thousands of years ago Chuang-Tzu, 369—298 B.C.E. gave us the best metaphor, in my opinion:
"Once upon a time, I, Zhuangzi, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Zhuangzi. Soon I awakened, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. ..."
I have a dream in which I woke up only to later 'really' awaken. I was sure it's not an uncommon experience - so I looked it up:
"A false awakening is a vivid and convincing dream about awakening from sleep, while the dreamer in reality continues to sleep. After a false awakening, subjects often dream they are performing daily morning rituals such as cooking, cleaning and eating. A subset of false awakenings, namely those in which one dreams that one has awoken from sleep that featured dreams, take on aspects of a double dream or a dream within a dream. A classic example is the double false awakening of the protagonist in Gogol's Portrait (1835)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_awakening
https://www.bing.com/search?q=awakenings+within+a+dream&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=awakenings+within+a+dream&sc=0-20&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=ab43ba72ba504408a61daabfa74f0b58
Also people cannot define any of the following: time consciousness life self numbers thought mind
"I was like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." Isaac Newton ----------------- "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." and "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Einstein ---------------- So certainty isn't what it's cracked up to be. All the fanatics have it. And that's certain?
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