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LogicaL Chaos
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Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp?
#22332816 - 10/04/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey guys,
So i currently have a weed plant growings. Its no where near ready for flowering, but it will be someday.
So right now its outside, getting sunlight, but at night, i have outdoor lights that turn on automatically when its too dark. So its practically getting 24 hours of light.
Lets say i wanted to start flowering, could i override the 24-hour vegging light cycle by putting a red-spectrum lamp near the plant at night to start flowering?
I know i can just move the plant from away from the outdoor exterior light, im asking this out of pure curiosity...
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#22333240 - 10/04/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm not really sure what you mean by over-ride? You mean you want to run a regular light and a red spectrum at the same time in hopes of triggering flowers? If that's what your driving at the answer is no, you will not trigger flowering.
If you don't understand what phytochrome is, researching that is a good place to start.
Edited by invitro (10/04/15 03:27 PM)
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psillyboy
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#22334184 - 10/04/15 07:01 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You force budding by reducing the light to 12 hours per day and plant will flower. The color of the light will not affect when the plant flowers.
-------------------- "True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country - K. Vonnegut βThe real truth, that dare not speak itself, is that no one is in control. Absolutely no one.β β Terence McKenna "LSD is a psychedelic drug which occasionally causes psychotic behavior in people who have never taken it." - Timothy Leary
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: psillyboy]
#22334206 - 10/04/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Not entirely true, certain wavelengths of light can convert the phytochrome, causing the plant to think it's in 12/12 when it's really not, causing it to flower.
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Zombi3
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Registered: 01/11/13
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: invitro]
#22334296 - 10/04/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: Not entirely true, certain wavelengths of light can convert the phytochrome, causing the plant to think it's in 12/12 when it's really not, causing it to flower.
Link?
@LogicaL, as far as I know cannabis is an obligate short day flowering plant. This means no matter the spectrum given, it will only flower when the days shorten to 12 hours or less of light.
If a simple light spectrum change could cause a cannabis plant to flower while receiving a long day (18+ hours) of light then it would be classified as a facultative short day plant.
Cannabis sativa = obligate short day flowering. Cannabis indica = obligate short day flowering. Cannabis ruderalis = facultative short day flowering.
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22334337 - 10/04/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you read abt phytochrome you should be able to figure it out... active/inactive and how they convert.
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: invitro]
#22334405 - 10/04/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you could flower a cannabis plant on 18/6 or more simply by changing the light spectrum then why isn't everybody doing it to increase yield?
What nanometer range of light spectrums would one need to give a cannabis plant in order to see it flower in a 18/6 photoperiod?
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22334420 - 10/04/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Has any experimental growing been done on the subject?
Should i be the first to try and see if it works?
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#22334445 - 10/04/15 07:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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From my cursory Google search it appears that flashing red light during the dark period will afford you an extra 2 hours of light during the light period and still get an optimal flowering. This means you could flower in 14 hours of light the same you could flower in 12 hours of light. However 14 hours is still a short day so really all this does is afford you a measly 2 extra hours which may translate to a small increase in yield. But it's not the same as force flowering a short day plant in a long day photoperiod by controlling light spectrums.
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22334618 - 10/04/15 08:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I guess it depends on how you look at it. 2 extra hours is a 16% increase in the amount of light you can use during flowering.
Does 16% more yield sound like a good deal?
Edited by invitro (10/04/15 08:34 PM)
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: invitro]
#22336004 - 10/05/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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A %16 increase in light does not guarantee a %16 increase in yield lol
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Matt87

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336019 - 10/05/15 08:30 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I bet you can flower in 24 hours light. 12 green light then 12 red.
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Matt87]
#22336031 - 10/05/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes that would work but it's a total waste of electricity and won't make a difference in the end lol
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Matt87

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Matt87]
#22336033 - 10/05/15 08:33 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You can flower with 14 hours of light anyways, it just takes longer. I used to go 12/12 for 3 or 4 weeks then increase the time once they were fully transitioned into flowering. I used to experiment a lot.
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  Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi
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Matt87

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336041 - 10/05/15 08:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zombi3 said:
yes that would work but it's a total waste of electricity and won't make a difference in the end lol
Oh yeah, it's dumb for sure.
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  Once you understand the way broadly, you see it in all things. -Musashi
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Matt87]
#22336051 - 10/05/15 08:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes but 14 hours is still a short day photoperiod, I'm not surprised that works. This started because someone said you can flower in a long day photoperiod which is 16+ hours a day simply by changing the light spectrum, which is false. Cannabis is a short day photoperiodic response plant, that's just a fact.
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Matt87

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336156 - 10/05/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeeeeeaah booooooyyyy! That's what flavor flav would say about it anyhow.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336212 - 10/05/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zombi3 said: Yes but 14 hours is still a short day photoperiod, I'm not surprised that works. This started because someone said you can flower in a long day photoperiod which is 16+ hours a day simply by changing the light spectrum, which is false. Cannabis is a short day photoperiodic response plant, that's just a fact.
the plant uses red spectrum light to determine day length. this is why weed flowers outdoors even though it get moon and star light at night. even just a momentary flash of red spectrum resets the plant's internal clock. thus, you could blast them with blue spectrum light all night long, and the plant will still think it is night.
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El Torcho
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: ballsalsa]
#22336532 - 10/05/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit" ~Dennis McKenna "There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to." ~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: ballsalsa]
#22336704 - 10/05/15 12:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Zombi3 said: Yes but 14 hours is still a short day photoperiod, I'm not surprised that works. This started because someone said you can flower in a long day photoperiod which is 16+ hours a day simply by changing the light spectrum, which is false. Cannabis is a short day photoperiodic response plant, that's just a fact.
the plant uses red spectrum light to determine day length. this is why weed flowers outdoors even though it get moon and star light at night. even just a momentary flash of red spectrum resets the plant's internal clock. thus, you could blast them with blue spectrum light all night long, and the plant will still think it is night.
False.
What you're essentially sayin is someone could keep their MH (blue spectrum) lights on all night long as well as all day for the regular day cycle, and they plant will still flower as long as you flash red spectrum during the night cycle.
That simply will not work.
You can even flower a plant with zero red spectrum, using only blue spectrum, as long as it gets less than 14-15 hours of light in a day. This is because it is a SHORT DAY PHOTOPERIODIC FLOWERING PLANT.
Light spectrum alone can not cause a cannabis plant to flower. Photoperiod alone can cause a cannabis plant to flower. Photoperiod + red spectrum will cause a cannabis plant to flower fastest.
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336707 - 10/05/15 12:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zombi3 said: Yes but 14 hours is still a short day photoperiod, I'm not surprised that works. This started because someone said you can flower in a long day photoperiod which is 16+ hours a day simply by changing the light spectrum, which is false. Cannabis is a short day photoperiodic response plant, that's just a fact.
Who said you can flower in a long day photoperiod, not me.
Edited by invitro (10/05/15 12:14 PM)
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El Torcho
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: invitro]
#22336759 - 10/05/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Flowering depends on genetics. Outdoors some plants will start to flower in early August when light is near 14 hours, some plants will wait to nearer the equinox in September.
OP will probably just induce hermie traits with landscape lighting. I assume the light isn't enough to 'supplement vegetative growth'. Maybe some more miracle grow would help?
--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit" ~Dennis McKenna "There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to." ~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: El Torcho]
#22336775 - 10/05/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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14 hours is still considered a short day. The reason it can flower under 14 hours is still because it is an obligate short day flowering plant.
Most growers choose to use 12 hours light because it will flower faster than it would with 14 and the 2 extra hours will not increase yield enough that it was worth the extra hydro/time.
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invitro

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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336897 - 10/05/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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For the record I'm not saying this will work to boost yield, but it would be cool to see a few people try it out. 
P.S. If you do try this out do some thorough research so you understand the wavelengths and concepts involved, just reading this thread does not provide enough information to do the experiment correctly.
Edited by invitro (10/05/15 01:22 PM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22336977 - 10/05/15 01:38 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zombi3 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Zombi3 said: Yes but 14 hours is still a short day photoperiod, I'm not surprised that works. This started because someone said you can flower in a long day photoperiod which is 16+ hours a day simply by changing the light spectrum, which is false. Cannabis is a short day photoperiodic response plant, that's just a fact.
the plant uses red spectrum light to determine day length. this is why weed flowers outdoors even though it get moon and star light at night. even just a momentary flash of red spectrum resets the plant's internal clock. thus, you could blast them with blue spectrum light all night long, and the plant will still think it is night.
False.
What you're essentially sayin is someone could keep their MH (blue spectrum) lights on all night long as well as all day for the regular day cycle, and they plant will still flower as long as you flash red spectrum during the night cycle.
Incorrect sir. MH does not put out entirely blue light. In fact, pretty much the only way to achieve all blue light is with LEDs(because an individual LED can only emit 1 frequency). Also, you misunderstood what i was saying about short burst red spectrum light. What i was trying to convey is that even just a short period of red spectrum light, makes the plant act as though night has not fallen. in other words, you could Veg plants outdoors even in winter, if you supplement red spectrum light after dark every very hours until your desired photoperiod is simulated.
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: ballsalsa]
#22337112 - 10/05/15 02:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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^ you coul do that same thing with any light spectrum. The colour temp is irrelevant, it's the photoperiod that matters just like you said at the end of the post. Sounds like you're describing night interruption lighting commonly used to keep mother plants in a veg cycle.
This thread is a mess man
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ballsalsa
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22337366 - 10/05/15 03:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zombi3 said: ^ you coul do that same thing with any light spectrum. The colour temp is irrelevant, it's the photoperiod that matters just like you said at the end of the post. Sounds like you're describing night interruption lighting commonly used to keep mother plants in a veg cycle.
This thread is a mess man 
yes, that is what i was describing at the end of that post. Maybe this will clear things up. Question: How does a plant detect photoperiod? does it look at it's watch? No, in fact, plants detect photoperiod by which spectrums of light they are recieving. The sun, for instance, puts out lots of red spectrum and near-IR frequencies. The reflected light of the moon by contrast is made up of blue spectrum light. The way the plant can tell night from day is by the lack of red spectrum light at night. but don't take my word for it, lets ask the almighty Wikipedia
Quote:
Many flowering plants (angiosperms) use a photoreceptor protein, such as phytochrome or cryptochrome,[1] to sense seasonal changes in night length, or photoperiod, which they take as signals to flower.
Quote:
Phytochrome is a photoreceptor, a pigment that plants, and some bacteria and fungi, use to detect light. It is sensitive to light in the red and far-red region of the visible spectrum. Many flowering plants use it to regulate the time of flowering based on the length of day and night (photoperiodism) and to set circadian rhythms.
Quote:
Cryptochromes (from the Greek ΞΊΟΟ
ΟΟΟ ΟΟΟΞΌΞ±, hidden colour) are a class of flavoproteins that are sensitive to blue light. They are found in plants and animals. Cryptochromes are involved in the circadian rhythms of plants and animals, and in the sensing of magnetic fields in a number of species.
As you can see, blue light is not related to photoperiodism though it is involved with the establishment of circadian rhythms
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: ballsalsa]
#22340123 - 10/06/15 08:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hmmm....interesting.
I think i need to research more info off-site.
I bet someone has tried an experiment like this before.
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




Registered: 05/12/07
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
#22340140 - 10/06/15 08:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just found some interesting info:
"The increasing hours of uninterrupted darkness cause the plants to respond as if Autumn is approaching, and begin to flower."
From here: http://www.marijuanagrowershq.com/light-cycles-and-flowering-cannabis/
So the key to flowering is uninterrupted dark time, according to this guy.
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Zombi3
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: ballsalsa]
#22340812 - 10/06/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wikipedia is not a reputable source. This thread is a mess and I'm out of here. For the record, you can absolutely flower a plant in nothing but blue spectrum light, as long as the photoperiod is a short day. It can tell when night is and when day is without red spectrum playing a role. You can flower a plant with pure blue LED and you can flower a plant with pure red LED. The photoperiodic response is due to any visible light it's not spectrum dependant.
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El Torcho
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22340961 - 10/06/15 12:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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The sun puts out more blue spectrum in spring and summer, moving towards more of a red spectrum in the late summer and fall. The longest day in summer over most of the populated northern hemisphere is about 15 hours, making a 14 hour day still pretty long. Again, it comes down to genetics. Generally a heavy Indica originally from India/Afghan region will start to flower around the middle of August when days are still around 14 hours. More tropical Sativas will wait until September to start. If the OP is still putting a heavy N fertilizer (miracle grow) on his plant, it will delay flowering. Maybe it's time to get in the hoopty and go to wallymart for some flowering/fruiting blue stuff with lower levels of N and higher levels of P and K? (That's why you should grow organic, instead of force feeding garbage to your plant)
This thread is a mess. Arguing about LED's/specific temperatures in a thread about outdoor is kind of pedantic. I assume OP isn't gonna go buy a blue colored LED grow light for his landscape lighting, anyways.
Again . . . .
--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit" ~Dennis McKenna "There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to." ~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama
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ballsalsa
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Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Budding Question: Can u force flower with color temp? [Re: Zombi3]
#22342451 - 10/06/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/phytochrome.htm
Quote:
Light is vital for photosynthesis, but is also necessary to direct plant growth and development. Light acts as a signal to initiate and regulate photoperiodism and photomorphogenesis. There are two light-sensing systems involved in these responses, the blue light sensistive system and the red light sensitive or phytochrome system.
Blue light responses: Many plant responses are regulated by blue light, including phototropism, stomatal opnening and chlorophyll synthesis. The last step of chlorophyll synthesis requires high levels of blue light. The other blue light responses are triggered by lower levels of blue light. For more detailed information, read [ this link ].
Phytochrome responses: Important plant responses regulated by the phytochrome system include photoperiodic induction of flowering, chloroplast development (not including chlorophyll synthesis), leaf senescence and leaf abscission.
Characteristics of phytochrome-mediated responses:
The action spectrum of the light needed for these responses shows a peak in the red at about 660 nm. These responses can be reversed by an application of far-red light (peak at 730 nm) soon after the red treatment. Sensitive spectrophotometers can measure a decrease in absorbance at 660 nm and in increase in absorbance at 730 nm when sensitive plant tissues are exposed to red (660 nm) light. The change in absorbance is caused by the conversion of a the photoreceptor from one structural form to another. The red-absorbing form changes to the far-red absorbing form when it absorbs red light (660 nm) and back again when it absorb far-red light (730 nm).
The phytochrome molecule is the photoreceptor for red light responses. It exists in two forms, Pr and Pfr:
The Pr form:
Absorbs at a peak of 666 nm Is the form synthesized in dark-grown seedlings. When Pr absorbs red light, it is converted to the Pfr form.
The Pfr form:
Absorbs at a peak of 730 nm The Pfr form is the active form that initiates biological responses When Pfr absorbs far red light, it is converted to the Pr form Pfr can also spontaneously revert to the Pr form in the dark over time = dark reversion; Pfr is also susceptible to proteinases. Pfr absorbs some red light, so in red light, there is a balance of 85% Pfr and 15% Pr Pr absorbs very little far red light, so in far red light, there is a balance of 97% Pr to 3% Pfr
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