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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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misinterpreting history * 1
    #22332198 - 10/04/15 11:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

People more often than not mistake the history of western civilization for the retelling of the world, which could not be a worse mistake.  There were a lot of different people doing a lot of different things all over the planet until relatively recently.  While it is true that hierarchy sprang up in many different spots, these were not in our image, and there was plenty of non-hierarchy as well.  History is the story of our civilization, not humanity.  We have some very wrong ideas when we think about the past with this corrupt bias.


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Offlineshroominated
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22332373 - 10/04/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

what if history isn't true at all and this world was created with false memory's and the past doesn't exist at all and whenever the programmer wants to change the past it just implants another memory in us and we always think its always been true


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: shroominated] * 1
    #22332489 - 10/04/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroominated said:
what if history isn't true at all and this world was created with false memory's and the past doesn't exist at all and whenever the programmer wants to change the past it just implants another memory in us and we always think its always been true




Great idea for a movie.  We can call it "The Matrix" then make several really bad sequels because we are the programmers hoping to duplicate the past.


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Invisibleenlightened seed
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22332593 - 10/04/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

can a brain be programmed somewhat like a computer?  a brain probably has a more complex code to it.


Edited by enlightened seed (10/04/15 12:56 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523297 - 11/14/15 04:11 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

What most people fail to realize is that our civilization is unique, not general.  Every other civilization that sprang up -- and there were not that many -- confined itself to its own region, and did no conquering outside of it.  Mesopotamian civilization didn't stop until it swallowed everything, and it's still going, making a slave out of Earth and everyone on it.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523305 - 11/14/15 04:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Every other civilization that sprang up -- and there were not that many -- confined itself to its own region, and did no conquering outside of it.




Who is misinterpreting history?  This is a ridiculous and baseless claim.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DieCommie]
    #22523334 - 11/14/15 04:24 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I'm just saying that many people tacitly assume that our history is the history of everybody.  Our history excludes 99% of the cultures that have existed on this planet.  I think it's a very widespread and obvious phenomenon how parochial we can be in our understanding of the past.  We put the beginning of history at the Fertile Crescent, for example, in about 8,000 BCE.  There was a lot of other stuff going on in other places both before and after that, and we disregard it as if it never happened.  Our history covers very little, but we tacitly assume it covers everything and everybody.  It's definitely a mistake a lot of people make; I see it all the time, everywhere.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523397 - 11/14/15 04:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It's definitely a mistake a lot of people make; I see it all the time, everywhere.




I don't.  I see history as extending back billions of years, human history as starting from the migration out of africa hundreds of thousands of years ago and written history starting independently in many places along with agriculture and cities also starting independently.

Perhaps you only see a limited perspective because you are not actually looking everywhere.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DieCommie]
    #22523436 - 11/14/15 04:49 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Just because it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it doesn't apply to others, DieCommie.  Ever since I was an anthropology student, I have seen this phenomenon at work all over the place.  I don't really know why we're disagreeing about this, but whatever.  I see people mistake the history of our civilization for a general history of the world, extrapolating it to the development of other cultures, spuriously placing it on a continuum with other cultures, etc., etc.  all the time.  I'm really not sure what your problem is.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523451 - 11/14/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I'm really not sure what your problem is.




It looks like you are making things up and projecting some kind of bias.  Maybe your anthropology program wasn't that great...  They didn't teach you about people from all over the world?  Did they actually teach you that only one civilization conquered outside of "its region"?  The fact that you are implying ancient mesopotamia is "our civilization" is weird...

People who are keen on history are generally keen on all of it.  Most people don't care about any of it.  Watch something popular like NOVA, its filled with info on ancient civilizations in the americas, china, africa, australia as well as europe and the middle east.  Go to a book store and see books on all kinds of aspects of history.

I'm not sure what your problem is... :shrug:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DieCommie]
    #22523482 - 11/14/15 05:04 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

I'm really not sure what your problem is.




It looks like you are making things up and projecting some kind of bias.  Maybe your anthropology program wasn't that great...  They didn't teach you about people from all over the world? 





Okay.

I can see this is lost on you.  Perhaps others will have more constructive things to say.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523516 - 11/14/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

There is a lot more recorded and surviving primary historical sources from western civilization written by greek, roman, and christian historians than from other parts of the world so it's been studied a lot more than other cultures and the story is a lot more complete.

Western Civilization had a huge impact on the world due to the age of exploration and colonialism spread Western Culture. Additionally, the large amount of innovation emerging from Western Civilization has had a huge impact on the world.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22523546 - 11/14/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
There is a lot more recorded and surviving primary historical sources from western civilization written by greek, roman, and christian historians than from other parts of the world so it's been studied a lot more than other cultures and the story is a lot more complete.

Western Civilization had a huge impact on the world due to the age of exploration and colonialism spread Western Culture. Additionally, the large amount of innovation emerging from Western Civilization has had a huge impact on the world.




Yes, White Beard, indeed -- that could have a lot to do with why many people have a view of history that is more largely colored by the exploits of our people, at the expense of acknowledging or understanding many other cultures that are not as well represented.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523642 - 11/14/15 05:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

How aren't they represented? There's been research work done on all cultures and you can get a book from your local library on india, china, inuits, or whatever if you're interested. There's just more work done on the west cause there's way more primary sources to go off of and the west had a larger impact on world history as a whole.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22523727 - 11/14/15 06:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I personally see a lot of ignorance in the media and in all sorts of things I read.  Of course by now anthropology is well established.  That doesn't mean there's an especially general awareness of its findings.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523808 - 11/14/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I dont see it. many it's just an american thing


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22523853 - 11/14/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well let me give you an example.  I think most people believe that before civilization, life was nasty, brutish and short -- that it was a struggle to survive.  Modern anthropology has proven that wrong, finding that hunter-gatherers, even in inhospitable lands like the Arctic or Australia, lived quite well and did not suffer food shortages or a surplus of attacks from animals, for example.  The Hobbesian understanding of existence was completely wrong, yet most people still cling to it and feel that civilization saved us.  It's completely false.

So there's one example.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523872 - 11/14/15 06:46 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


…Sahlins contrasts the traditional view of hunter-gatherer life as “nasty, brutish, and short” with the reality of societies that enjoyed abundant leisure time and whose material needs were easily satisfied.  Most important, Sahlins spells out a simple yet revolutionary idea with profound implications for our turbulent times: scarcity is a social construct, not an inevitable condition of human existence.

Gowdy, John (ed.).  Limited Wants, Unlimited Means.  Washington, D.C.: Island Press, 1998.





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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22523889 - 11/14/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Well let me give you an example.  I think most people believe that before civilization, life was nasty, brutish and short -- that it was a struggle to survive.  Modern anthropology has proven that wrong, finding that hunter-gatherers, even in inhospitable lands like the Arctic or Australia, lived quite well and did not suffer food shortages or a surplus of attacks from animals, for example.  The Hobbesian understanding of existence was completely wrong, yet most people still cling to it and feel that civilization saved us.  It's completely false.

So there's one example.




First you were talking about western civilization and now you've flipped to civilization as a whole.


Edited by White Beard (11/14/15 06:52 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22523967 - 11/14/15 07:10 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Well, it applies to civilization in general.  Before civilization, and after its onset -- in Mesopotamia and other places -- hunter-gatherers were all over the place.  And they had an easier life than the agriculturalists in terms of work-hours.  I don't really understand your point.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22524400 - 11/14/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I don't really understand your point.




My point is that I don't really understand the point of this thread. I think you're basically saying that people sometimes have a wrong views about history?


Edited by White Beard (11/14/15 08:41 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22524546 - 11/14/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think what I said is trivial, as it is an insidious set of memes.  Although, I'm not sure I've made myself very well understood.  I think my above point about hunter-gatherers is a sound example of what I am talking about.  Yes, it has to do with people having wrong views about history and prehistory (and especially anthropology) -- in a way that is alarmingly common.  If you don't understand the point, I apologize for not making it clearer.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22524653 - 11/14/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Better to de-construct than misunderstand history.

Getting ready for thanksgiving DQ?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Kurt]
    #22524800 - 11/14/15 09:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, little get together with the fam. My brother cooks a mean turkey.  I look forward to the shrimp dip more than anything, though.  You?


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22524879 - 11/14/15 09:26 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I haven't seen my own family in a while.
Either anticipation or apprehension, I am not sure which.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Kurt]
    #22524897 - 11/14/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

You should have sudly do a reading.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22524958 - 11/14/15 09:34 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: I should.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22525181 - 11/14/15 10:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
People more often than not mistake the history of western civilization for the retelling of the world, which could not be a worse mistake.  There were a lot of different people doing a lot of different things all over the planet until relatively recently.  While it is true that hierarchy sprang up in many different spots, these were not in our image, and there was plenty of non-hierarchy as well.  History is the story of our civilization, not humanity.  We have some very wrong ideas when we think about the past with this corrupt bias.




Who are the "people" you refer to. It seems you make a huge generalization, and then accuse others of generalization.
And it is trivial that the uneducated are uneducated.


consider this Pulitzer Prize winner, which was not under the radar


Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies
by Jared M. Diamond (Author)

Guns, Germs and Steel won the 1997 Phi Beta Kappa Award in Science.[8] In 1998, it won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction, in recognition of its powerful synthesis of many disciplines, and the Royal Society's Rhône-Poulenc Prize for Science Books.[9][10] The National Geographic Society produced a documentary of the same title based on the book that was broadcast on PBS in July 2005.[1].

as well as these:

Cannibals and Kings: Origins of Cultures Paperback – June 4, 1991
by Marvin Harris (Author)


Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture Paperback – December 17, 1989
by Marvin Harris (Author)


The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal (P.S.) Trade Paperback Edition Edition
by Jared M. Diamond (Author)



Our Kind: Who We Are, Where We Came From, Where We Are Going
by Marvin Harris (Author)

so the material is readily available, a college education is not necessary, just average intelligence, and curiosity.
In fact one doesn't even have to read, or even leave home, just surf over to youtube, where Jarred Diamond's talks are available, for free.
-----------------------------------

That some percentage of folks would rather watch TV or bet on sports or go to church, than do any reading is I agree perhaps sad.


Edited by laughingdog (11/15/15 05:16 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: laughingdog]
    #22526876 - 11/15/15 09:53 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's not just the uneducated being uneducated.  If any of you could appreciate how general this phenomenon is, and how ubiquitous, your comments would seem rather lame as you looked at them again.  Still, no one has addressed my comments about hunter-gatherers above.  Most of our educated people do not understand that.  The majority.  I feel that is non-trivial.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22526919 - 11/15/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

what's a non-heirarchical society?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: quinn]
    #22526941 - 11/15/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc.  And virtually no possessions.


Quote:

At the 1966 "Man the Hunter" conference, anthropologists Richard Borshay Lee and Irven DeVore suggested that egalitarianism was one of several central characteristics of nomadic hunting and gathering societies because mobility requires minimization of material possessions throughout a population. Therefore, no surplus of resources can be accumulated by any single member. Other characteristics Lee and DeVore proposed were flux in territorial boundaries as well as in demographic composition.

At the same conference, Marshall Sahlins presented a paper entitled, "Notes on the Original Affluent Society", in which he challenged the popular view of hunter-gatherers lives as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short," as Thomas Hobbes had put it in 1651. According to Sahlins, ethnographic data indicated that hunter-gatherers worked far fewer hours and enjoyed more leisure than typical members of industrial society, and they still ate well. Their "affluence" came from the idea that they are satisfied with very little in the material sense. This satisfaction, Sahlins said, constituted a Zen economy. Later, in 1996, Ross Sackett performed two distinct meta-analyses to empirically test Sahlin's view. The first of these studies looked at 102 time-allocation studies, and the second one analyzed 207 energy-expenditure studies. Sackett found that adults in foraging and horticultural societies work, on average, about 6.5 hours a day, where as people in agricultural and industrial societies work on average 8.8 hours a day.

Recent research also indicates that the life-expectancy of hunter-gatherers is surprisingly high.

Mutual exchange and sharing of resources (i.e., meat gained from hunting) are important in the economic systems of hunter-gatherer societies. Therefore, these societies can be described as based on a "gift economy."





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#Social_and_economic_structure

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22526968 - 11/15/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Still, no one has addressed my comments about hunter-gatherers above. 




Why should i repeat on an internet forum what Marvin Harris, has said better than I can, in his highly readable books. I have provided the titles.
You are correct that civilization is a disaster. Expecting the average person to see the world this way seems unreasonable. If you were to go to a Buddhist monastery, you would be more likely to find sympathy for such a view.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: laughingdog]
    #22527002 - 11/15/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
You are correct that civilization is a disaster. Expecting the average person to see the world this way seems unreasonable. If you were to go to a Buddhist monastery, you would be more likely to find sympathy for such a view.




That's true.  What's unsettling to me is how many above-average people are not aware of the anthropological reality.  I see very destructive ramifications of this in all walks of life.  Perhaps I'm making more of this than I should, but I don't think I've been on the same wavelength with most of the contributors in this thread, through no fault of theirs.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22527189 - 11/15/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

ok who wants to start a hunter gatherer society with me?

like, imagine how much more effective we can be with portable gas stoves and google maps and so on :strokebeard:....


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22527221 - 11/15/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

there was a study: "People Prefer Electric Shocks to Being Alone With Their Thoughts ."

This is our modern world

https://www.bing.com/search?q=being+alone%2C+electric+shocks&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=being+alone%2C+electric+shocks&sc=0-17&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=B60EB9C965354637BFD18D1BAED2512F

I'm 'afraid' Aldus Huxley had it pretty much right in "Brave New World" written in 1931 . He was inspired.
Watched a corny version of "Brave New World" turned into a film on youtube, but Huxley's ideas shone thru.

Of course he didn't predict everything, who could imagine people would become addicted to phones and little screens?
Eisenhower predicted the military industrial complex.
But, it seems to me, the modern world has gone beyond corrupt to surreal. even parodying itself. I guess some authors like Joseph Heller (Catch 22) have felt the same way.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: laughingdog]
    #22527330 - 11/15/15 12:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Yep.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22527826 - 11/15/15 02:50 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, if you don't like civilization, then you can get out



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard] * 1
    #22528560 - 11/15/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

I do think world history has been watered down in the last couple decades. Not so much to cover up the past but to produce good little consumers. History is now a tool for teaching the values of social justice. Beyond that it currently has no usefulness for the common masses.

That being said, the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate, and perhaps tidbits to demonize the competition, if they had any history lessons at all generally being religious in nature. A person educated in world history has always been the exception.

Perhaps OPs expectations of humanity are a little high?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Rahz]
    #22528613 - 11/15/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I do think world history has been watered down in the last couple decades. Not so much to cover up the past but to produce good little consumers. History is now a tool for teaching the values of social justice. Beyond that it currently has no usefulness for the common masses.

That being said, the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate, and perhaps tidbits to demonize the competition, if they had any history lessons at all generally being religious in nature. A person educated in world history has always been the exception.




Quite perceptive.  Especially:  "...the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate..."

Essential.  Very much agreed.


Quote:

Perhaps OPs expectations of humanity are a little high?




Perhaps.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529115 - 11/15/15 07:52 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc.  And virtually no possessions.





Communism has never worked on the large scale in industrial nations.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529133 - 11/15/15 07:56 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
And they had an easier life than the agriculturalists in terms of work-hours..




The main advantage of agriculture was that humans could live in one area, allowing the development of more complex social structures, technology, and knowledge. So if you want to just hunt, eat, and have sex and that's it, then being a hunter-gather is fine. But if you care about other things such as knowledge, then we need civilization.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history *DELETED* [Re: White Beard]
    #22529143 - 11/15/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by White Beard

Reason for deletion: .



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22529234 - 11/15/15 08:13 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc.  And virtually no possessions.





Communism has never worked on the large scale in industrial nations.




It's not communism.  It has nothing to do with communism.

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
And they had an easier life than the agriculturalists in terms of work-hours..




The main advantage of agriculture was that humans could live in one area, allowing the development of more complex social structures, technology, and knowledge. So if you want to just hunt, eat, and have sex and that's it, then being a hunter-gather is fine. But if you care about other things such as knowledge, then we need civilization.




That's anthropologically infantile.  I don't know where to begin, so I won't.

Quote:

White Beard said:
DQ, ever thought of running away from civilization and surviving in the woods? Here in Canada we can camp on crown land for free, and I could survive on hunting, fishing, trapping, and forging if I learned all the skills and got the equipment. Also, there is a lot of empty crown land here in Canada. I only need to drive 2 hours north to reach crown land, so if I ever get bored of civilization I could do that. However, the main problem is the winter.




I have very little problem with my life in civilization.  I have never even insinuated that we can or should do away with civilization.  This is completely inappropriate, and the condescension betrays an ironic lack that, were you to appreciate it, might make you feel a bit sheepish.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22529274 - 11/15/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

It's rather hard when the people who you're referring to as ignorant are the ones leading the charge against you in a thread they think they oppose.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529382 - 11/15/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It's not communism.  It has nothing to do with communism.




Communism is about no private property, no hierarchy, and communal subsistence. Seems pretty similar to communism to me.


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's anthropologically infantile.  I don't know where to begin, so I won't.





I dunno, it seems like where ever civilization first sprung up, so much innovation appeared. Writing appeared in Mesopotamia, paper in Egypt. Both lead to the propagation of knowledge. Thanks for insulting me without trying to enlighten me though.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I have very little problem with my life in civilization.  I have never even insinuated that we can or should do away with civilization.  This is completely inappropriate, and the condescension betrays an ironic lack that, were you to appreciate it, might make you feel a bit sheepish.





Wow, Jesus Christ, why are you getting so defensive and rude? I was just making conversation that seemed appropriate, and sharing some of my thoughts. Never mind then.


Edited by White Beard (11/15/15 08:52 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22529508 - 11/15/15 09:01 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Sorry to be testy.  Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different.  First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all.  Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property.  There is no property or ownership in hg.  Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one.  There are other differences, but there are a few.

Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far.  However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine.  The evidence backs it up.  Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter.  They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy.  Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better.  Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up.  I can provide sources if you would like.

I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529599 - 11/15/15 09:16 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sorry to be testy.  Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different.  First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all.  Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property.  There is no property or ownership in hg.  Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one.  There are other differences, but there are a few.





Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.

However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far.  However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine.  The evidence backs it up.  Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter.  They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy.  Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better.  Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up.  I can provide sources if you would like.





No need for sources. I agree that civilization did bring about a lower standard of living for most people at it's onset. I know that life expetancies dropped and disease was more prevalent. However, I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.




I'm sorry to hear. No worries man.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22529614 - 11/15/15 09:18 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Sorry to be testy.  Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different.  First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all.  Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property.  There is no property or ownership in hg.  Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one.  There are other differences, but there are a few.





Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.

However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far.  However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine.  The evidence backs it up.  Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter.  They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy.  Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better.  Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up.  I can provide sources if you would like.





No need for sources. I agree that civilization did bring about a lower standard of living for most people at it's onset. I know that life expetancies dropped and disease was more prevalent. However, I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run. And yes, civilization didn't start with this goal in mind, just in retrospect, I appreciate those people's sacrifice.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.




I'm sorry to hear. No worries man.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529619 - 11/15/15 09:19 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history *DELETED* [Re: quinn]
    #22529664 - 11/15/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by White Beard

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by White Beard (11/15/15 09:58 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22529673 - 11/15/15 09:30 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:

Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.

However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?




The chiefs of the North American Indians were largely what are called "headmen" by anthropologists.  They were very respected for their wisdom, and were the first person to go to for counsel.  But they could not boss people around like bosses do for us.  Every individual was independent, and the chief had no coercive authority.  Indians were essentially hunter-gatherers, with some exceptions, and many practiced a small-scale type of agriculture that would not have qualified them as full-blown agriculturalists.  They were quite mobile, again with a few exceptions, notably the sedentary tribes in the Pacific Northwest.


Quote:

I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run.




I respect that, and on this I am actually something of an agnostic.  I honestly don't know that I'm better off than a Hadza, for example, however I am a modern American, was shaped by being brought up in this country, and will be damned if I have to give up my privileges for any reason.  So I definitely sympathize with your position.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529701 - 11/15/15 09:37 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The chiefs of the North American Indians were largely what are called "headmen" by anthropologists.  They were very respected for their wisdom, and were the first person to go to for counsel.  But they could not boss people around like bosses do for us.  Every individual was independent, and the chief had no coercive authority.  Indians were essentially hunter-gatherers, with some exceptions, and many practiced a small-scale type of agriculture that would not have qualified them as full-blown agriculturalists.  They were quite mobile, again with a few exceptions, notably the sedentary tribes in the Pacific Northwest.





That sounds pretty nice


Quote:



I respect that, and on this I am actually something of an agnostic.  I honestly don't know that I'm better off than a Hadza, for example, however I am a modern American, was shaped by being brought up in this country, and will be damned if I have to give up my privileges for any reason.  So I definitely sympathize with your position.




I agree that I don't know if I'd be better being a HG or civilized man. I've often fantasized about it, as I was talking about in my other post. Though I do like knowledge, and I think we'll never get off earth and explore the galaxy without civilization.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22529704 - 11/15/15 09:38 PM (8 years, 2 months ago)

The history of civilization is clearly much older than 10,000 years. Unfortunately (and correct me if i'm wrong here) written history only goes back about that far (though there's always room for discovering even older writings). :shrug:

but even if you just go back to the battle of marathon,  you're already talking about 3 divergent cultures from 3 different continents meeting and battling and trading, and assimilating each other, a process that continued unabated for some time.(arguably its still happening)

Which isn't to say that lots of thing can't be inferred from artifacts, bones, rubbish heaps, etc.  It's just that people like written records of things.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22531372 - 11/16/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

quinn said:
so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..




Nazi Germany was the closest.
http://gcsehistory.org.uk/modernworld/germany/autarky.htm




What percentage of that economy was based on weapons manufacture?
which brings to mind
What percentage of our economy is based on military related endeavors?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard]
    #22531388 - 11/16/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:

Quote:


I agree that I don't know if I'd be better being a HG or civilized man. I've often fantasized about it, as I was talking about in my other post. Though I do like knowledge, and I think we'll never get off earth and explore the galaxy without civilization.




it's like the question: "does a fish know it's wet?"

I like hot running water and toilet paper is convienient ... but then again:


Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided?
------------------------------------

The Myth of Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies - Chris Hedges
-------------------------------------------

Collapse of Complex Societies by Dr. Joseph Tainter
---------------------------------------------------

Chris Hedges June 8, 2015 Town Hall Seattle
latest book Wages of Rebellion,
a talk entitled Defining ‘The Moral Imperative of Revolt’
----------------------------------------------------------

Future Events leading to further collapse  of civilization

more extreme weather events / high winds / heat waves / droughts
food plants that won't grow in greater heat
overconsumption by the well off
decline of soil health & fertility
Sea level rise
Agricultural depletion of water / Change in rainfall patterns
micronutrient starvation / Population growth / 2050 2.5 billion more
continued acidification of the oceans, detoxification & death of fish populations
heat will kill millions of people
rise of cults like the religious right but worse
increased gap between rich and poor, and increased poverty
more urbanization and increased crowding and population

Somewhat speculative future events
more robotic armies & more deadly weapons & soldiers with implanted chips
unanticipated consequences of GMO plants
genetic engineering of people
spread of tropical diseases across a hotter earth
increased surveillance and reduced rights & more heavily armed police
another financial meltdown, and consequent riots, and more poverty and instability
more earthquakes from fracking
computers in cars that can be controlled by police
-------------------------------------------------------
Present Conditions showing failure of civilization

Population growth / by 2050 2.5 billion more
Nuclear weapons proliferation, deteriorating missiles and bombs
continued Chemical pollution and increased cancer rates
Plastic pollution of the oceans, pollution of the great lakes
no equal pay for women world wide
very high US  incarceration rates yet organized crime, human trafficking
use of solitary confinement in brutal US prisons
dependence on fossil fuels and polluting nuclear power
dependance upon air-conditioning in many places
hypnosis of humans by not only culture and religion, but now by news media, commercial interests, and TV & movies
murder and displacement of indigenous people
sick money system--mortgage crises-leveraged financial instruments
use of drones in war
government tapping of personal cell phones voice & GPS location tracking
terrorism-suicide bombers-beheadings on the internet
life shortening smog in the large cities of the world
antibiotic resistent germs in hospitals
Espionage Act to shut down whistleblowers
Patriot Act, Erosion of civil liberties and privacy
Guatamo Bay, exported CIA torture
section 10.21 of National defense authorization act, allowing military to arresst US citizens
increased militarization of the police, murder of civilians especially blacks by police
institutionalization of lobbying in Washington


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InvisibleWhite Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: misinterpreting history [Re: laughingdog]
    #22531457 - 11/16/15 09:21 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

quinn said:
so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..




Nazi Germany was the closest.
http://gcsehistory.org.uk/modernworld/germany/autarky.htm




What percentage of that economy was based on weapons manufacture?
which brings to mind
What percentage of our economy is based on military related endeavors?




I know america it's slightly more than 50% for defense spending.

For the Nazi's: 1939 = 23%, 1940 = 38%, 1941 = 47%, 1942 = 55% , 1943 = 61%
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/nazi-germany-military-expenditure/

So America has a pretty similar % expenditure to the Nazi's during the peak of WW2. America is spending way more though, cause its GDP is way higher.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: laughingdog]
    #22531672 - 11/16/15 10:11 AM (8 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Future Events leading to further collapse  of civilization

more extreme weather events / high winds / heat waves / droughts
food plants that won't grow in greater heat
overconsumption by the well off
decline of soil health & fertility
Sea level rise
Agricultural depletion of water / Change in rainfall patterns
micronutrient starvation / Population growth / 2050 2.5 billion more
continued acidification of the oceans, detoxification & death of fish populations
heat will kill millions of people
rise of cults like the religious right but worse
increased gap between rich and poor, and increased poverty
more urbanization and increased crowding and population

Somewhat speculative future events
more robotic armies & more deadly weapons & soldiers with implanted chips
unanticipated consequences of GMO plants
genetic engineering of people
spread of tropical diseases across a hotter earth
increased surveillance and reduced rights & more heavily armed police
another financial meltdown, and consequent riots, and more poverty and instability
more earthquakes from fracking
computers in cars that can be controlled by police
-------------------------------------------------------
Present Conditions showing failure of civilization

Population growth / by 2050 2.5 billion more
Nuclear weapons proliferation, deteriorating missiles and bombs
continued Chemical pollution and increased cancer rates
Plastic pollution of the oceans, pollution of the great lakes
no equal pay for women world wide
very high US  incarceration rates yet organized crime, human trafficking
use of solitary confinement in brutal US prisons
dependence on fossil fuels and polluting nuclear power
dependance upon air-conditioning in many places
hypnosis of humans by not only culture and religion, but now by news media, commercial interests, and TV & movies
murder and displacement of indigenous people
sick money system--mortgage crises-leveraged financial instruments
use of drones in war
government tapping of personal cell phones voice & GPS location tracking
terrorism-suicide bombers-beheadings on the internet
life shortening smog in the large cities of the world
antibiotic resistent germs in hospitals
Espionage Act to shut down whistleblowers
Patriot Act, Erosion of civil liberties and privacy
Guatamo Bay, exported CIA torture
section 10.21 of National defense authorization act, allowing military to arresst US citizens
increased militarization of the police, murder of civilians especially blacks by police
institutionalization of lobbying in Washington




Well, I suppose it's just time to sit back, relax and enjoy the crisis.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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