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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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DividedQuantum said: And they had an easier life than the agriculturalists in terms of work-hours..
The main advantage of agriculture was that humans could live in one area, allowing the development of more complex social structures, technology, and knowledge. So if you want to just hunt, eat, and have sex and that's it, then being a hunter-gather is fine. But if you care about other things such as knowledge, then we need civilization.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: misinterpreting history *DELETED* [Re: White Beard]
#22529143 - 11/15/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by White BeardReason for deletion: .
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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White Beard said:
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DividedQuantum said: One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc. And virtually no possessions.
Communism has never worked on the large scale in industrial nations.
It's not communism. It has nothing to do with communism.
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White Beard said:
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DividedQuantum said: And they had an easier life than the agriculturalists in terms of work-hours..
The main advantage of agriculture was that humans could live in one area, allowing the development of more complex social structures, technology, and knowledge. So if you want to just hunt, eat, and have sex and that's it, then being a hunter-gather is fine. But if you care about other things such as knowledge, then we need civilization.
That's anthropologically infantile. I don't know where to begin, so I won't.
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White Beard said: DQ, ever thought of running away from civilization and surviving in the woods? Here in Canada we can camp on crown land for free, and I could survive on hunting, fishing, trapping, and forging if I learned all the skills and got the equipment. Also, there is a lot of empty crown land here in Canada. I only need to drive 2 hours north to reach crown land, so if I ever get bored of civilization I could do that. However, the main problem is the winter.
I have very little problem with my life in civilization. I have never even insinuated that we can or should do away with civilization. This is completely inappropriate, and the condescension betrays an ironic lack that, were you to appreciate it, might make you feel a bit sheepish.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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It's rather hard when the people who you're referring to as ignorant are the ones leading the charge against you in a thread they think they oppose.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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DividedQuantum said: It's not communism. It has nothing to do with communism.
Communism is about no private property, no hierarchy, and communal subsistence. Seems pretty similar to communism to me.
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DividedQuantum said: That's anthropologically infantile. I don't know where to begin, so I won't.
I dunno, it seems like where ever civilization first sprung up, so much innovation appeared. Writing appeared in Mesopotamia, paper in Egypt. Both lead to the propagation of knowledge. Thanks for insulting me without trying to enlighten me though.
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DividedQuantum said: I have very little problem with my life in civilization. I have never even insinuated that we can or should do away with civilization. This is completely inappropriate, and the condescension betrays an ironic lack that, were you to appreciate it, might make you feel a bit sheepish.
Wow, Jesus Christ, why are you getting so defensive and rude? I was just making conversation that seemed appropriate, and sharing some of my thoughts. Never mind then.
Edited by White Beard (11/15/15 08:52 PM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Sorry to be testy. Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different. First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all. Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property. There is no property or ownership in hg. Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one. There are other differences, but there are a few.
Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far. However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine. The evidence backs it up. Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter. They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better. Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up. I can provide sources if you would like.
I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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DividedQuantum said: Sorry to be testy. Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different. First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all. Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property. There is no property or ownership in hg. Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one. There are other differences, but there are a few.
Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.
However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?
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DividedQuantum said: Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far. However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine. The evidence backs it up. Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter. They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better. Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up. I can provide sources if you would like.
No need for sources. I agree that civilization did bring about a lower standard of living for most people at it's onset. I know that life expetancies dropped and disease was more prevalent. However, I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run.
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DividedQuantum said: I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.
I'm sorry to hear. No worries man.
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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DividedQuantum said: Sorry to be testy. Communism and hunting-gathering could not be more different. First of all, communism is ultramaterialistic, which hg is not materialistic at all. Communism is a political stance taken by civilized Europeans, in order to convey communal ownership of property. There is no property or ownership in hg. Hg has no political hierarchy; communism has a substantial one. There are other differences, but there are a few.
Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.
However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?
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DividedQuantum said: Yes, writing, arts, sciences, technologies all appeared with civilization, in the few instances in which things got that far. However, civilized people work much harder and most of them arguably have a poorer quality of life than most hgs, as difficult as that is to imagine. The evidence backs it up. Plus, the formation of civilization is not a trivial matter. They didn't pop up because people wanted to settle down and have specialization; specialization occurred because it was necessary for the power base and the economy. Once again, and I can't stress this enough, even though we're pretty comfortable now, in the 21st century, civilization was extremely hard work most of the way, in awful living conditions largely, and quality of life arguably got worse after the onset of civilization, not better. Once again, there is ample ethnographic evidence to back this up. I can provide sources if you would like.
No need for sources. I agree that civilization did bring about a lower standard of living for most people at it's onset. I know that life expetancies dropped and disease was more prevalent. However, I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run. And yes, civilization didn't start with this goal in mind, just in retrospect, I appreciate those people's sacrifice.
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DividedQuantum said: I am sorry I was rude, I had just had a rather difficult time irl.
I'm sorry to hear. No worries man.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Re: misinterpreting history *DELETED* [Re: quinn]
#22529664 - 11/15/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by White BeardReason for deletion: .
Edited by White Beard (11/15/15 09:58 PM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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White Beard said:
Yeah, you're right, they are different with some similarities.
However, I think HG is materialistic in the sense that they still value the materials necessary for survival, they value the meat they hunt, their weapons, etc. For hierarchy, I know HG native american tribes had chiefs. Isn't that still a hierarchy?
The chiefs of the North American Indians were largely what are called "headmen" by anthropologists. They were very respected for their wisdom, and were the first person to go to for counsel. But they could not boss people around like bosses do for us. Every individual was independent, and the chief had no coercive authority. Indians were essentially hunter-gatherers, with some exceptions, and many practiced a small-scale type of agriculture that would not have qualified them as full-blown agriculturalists. They were quite mobile, again with a few exceptions, notably the sedentary tribes in the Pacific Northwest.
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I think the sacrifice was worth it in the long run.
I respect that, and on this I am actually something of an agnostic. I honestly don't know that I'm better off than a Hadza, for example, however I am a modern American, was shaped by being brought up in this country, and will be damned if I have to give up my privileges for any reason. So I definitely sympathize with your position.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: The chiefs of the North American Indians were largely what are called "headmen" by anthropologists. They were very respected for their wisdom, and were the first person to go to for counsel. But they could not boss people around like bosses do for us. Every individual was independent, and the chief had no coercive authority. Indians were essentially hunter-gatherers, with some exceptions, and many practiced a small-scale type of agriculture that would not have qualified them as full-blown agriculturalists. They were quite mobile, again with a few exceptions, notably the sedentary tribes in the Pacific Northwest.
That sounds pretty nice
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I respect that, and on this I am actually something of an agnostic. I honestly don't know that I'm better off than a Hadza, for example, however I am a modern American, was shaped by being brought up in this country, and will be damned if I have to give up my privileges for any reason. So I definitely sympathize with your position.
I agree that I don't know if I'd be better being a HG or civilized man. I've often fantasized about it, as I was talking about in my other post. Though I do like knowledge, and I think we'll never get off earth and explore the galaxy without civilization.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,863
Loc: Foreign Lands
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The history of civilization is clearly much older than 10,000 years. Unfortunately (and correct me if i'm wrong here) written history only goes back about that far (though there's always room for discovering even older writings). 
but even if you just go back to the battle of marathon, you're already talking about 3 divergent cultures from 3 different continents meeting and battling and trading, and assimilating each other, a process that continued unabated for some time.(arguably its still happening)
Which isn't to say that lots of thing can't be inferred from artifacts, bones, rubbish heaps, etc. It's just that people like written records of things.
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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White Beard said:
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quinn said: so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..
Nazi Germany was the closest. http://gcsehistory.org.uk/modernworld/germany/autarky.htm
What percentage of that economy was based on weapons manufacture? which brings to mind What percentage of our economy is based on military related endeavors?
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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White Beard said:
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I agree that I don't know if I'd be better being a HG or civilized man. I've often fantasized about it, as I was talking about in my other post. Though I do like knowledge, and I think we'll never get off earth and explore the galaxy without civilization.
it's like the question: "does a fish know it's wet?"
I like hot running water and toilet paper is convienient ... but then again:
Can a collapse of global civilization be avoided? ------------------------------------
The Myth of Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies - Chris Hedges -------------------------------------------
Collapse of Complex Societies by Dr. Joseph Tainter ---------------------------------------------------
Chris Hedges June 8, 2015 Town Hall Seattle latest book Wages of Rebellion, a talk entitled Defining ‘The Moral Imperative of Revolt’ ----------------------------------------------------------
Future Events leading to further collapse of civilization
more extreme weather events / high winds / heat waves / droughts food plants that won't grow in greater heat overconsumption by the well off decline of soil health & fertility Sea level rise Agricultural depletion of water / Change in rainfall patterns micronutrient starvation / Population growth / 2050 2.5 billion more continued acidification of the oceans, detoxification & death of fish populations heat will kill millions of people rise of cults like the religious right but worse increased gap between rich and poor, and increased poverty more urbanization and increased crowding and population
Somewhat speculative future events more robotic armies & more deadly weapons & soldiers with implanted chips unanticipated consequences of GMO plants genetic engineering of people spread of tropical diseases across a hotter earth increased surveillance and reduced rights & more heavily armed police another financial meltdown, and consequent riots, and more poverty and instability more earthquakes from fracking computers in cars that can be controlled by police ------------------------------------------------------- Present Conditions showing failure of civilization
Population growth / by 2050 2.5 billion more Nuclear weapons proliferation, deteriorating missiles and bombs continued Chemical pollution and increased cancer rates Plastic pollution of the oceans, pollution of the great lakes no equal pay for women world wide very high US incarceration rates yet organized crime, human trafficking use of solitary confinement in brutal US prisons dependence on fossil fuels and polluting nuclear power dependance upon air-conditioning in many places hypnosis of humans by not only culture and religion, but now by news media, commercial interests, and TV & movies murder and displacement of indigenous people sick money system--mortgage crises-leveraged financial instruments use of drones in war government tapping of personal cell phones voice & GPS location tracking terrorism-suicide bombers-beheadings on the internet life shortening smog in the large cities of the world antibiotic resistent germs in hospitals Espionage Act to shut down whistleblowers Patriot Act, Erosion of civil liberties and privacy Guatamo Bay, exported CIA torture section 10.21 of National defense authorization act, allowing military to arresst US citizens increased militarization of the police, murder of civilians especially blacks by police institutionalization of lobbying in Washington
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
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White Beard said:
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quinn said: so much of our comfort seems dependant on cheap labour being exported to poorer 'less civilised' countries, i wonder what a completely self contained 'civilised' society would look like..
Nazi Germany was the closest. http://gcsehistory.org.uk/modernworld/germany/autarky.htm
What percentage of that economy was based on weapons manufacture? which brings to mind What percentage of our economy is based on military related endeavors?
I know america it's slightly more than 50% for defense spending.
For the Nazi's: 1939 = 23%, 1940 = 38%, 1941 = 47%, 1942 = 55% , 1943 = 61% http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/nazi-germany-military-expenditure/
So America has a pretty similar % expenditure to the Nazi's during the peak of WW2. America is spending way more though, cause its GDP is way higher.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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laughingdog said: Future Events leading to further collapse of civilization
more extreme weather events / high winds / heat waves / droughts food plants that won't grow in greater heat overconsumption by the well off decline of soil health & fertility Sea level rise Agricultural depletion of water / Change in rainfall patterns micronutrient starvation / Population growth / 2050 2.5 billion more continued acidification of the oceans, detoxification & death of fish populations heat will kill millions of people rise of cults like the religious right but worse increased gap between rich and poor, and increased poverty more urbanization and increased crowding and population
Somewhat speculative future events more robotic armies & more deadly weapons & soldiers with implanted chips unanticipated consequences of GMO plants genetic engineering of people spread of tropical diseases across a hotter earth increased surveillance and reduced rights & more heavily armed police another financial meltdown, and consequent riots, and more poverty and instability more earthquakes from fracking computers in cars that can be controlled by police ------------------------------------------------------- Present Conditions showing failure of civilization
Population growth / by 2050 2.5 billion more Nuclear weapons proliferation, deteriorating missiles and bombs continued Chemical pollution and increased cancer rates Plastic pollution of the oceans, pollution of the great lakes no equal pay for women world wide very high US incarceration rates yet organized crime, human trafficking use of solitary confinement in brutal US prisons dependence on fossil fuels and polluting nuclear power dependance upon air-conditioning in many places hypnosis of humans by not only culture and religion, but now by news media, commercial interests, and TV & movies murder and displacement of indigenous people sick money system--mortgage crises-leveraged financial instruments use of drones in war government tapping of personal cell phones voice & GPS location tracking terrorism-suicide bombers-beheadings on the internet life shortening smog in the large cities of the world antibiotic resistent germs in hospitals Espionage Act to shut down whistleblowers Patriot Act, Erosion of civil liberties and privacy Guatamo Bay, exported CIA torture section 10.21 of National defense authorization act, allowing military to arresst US citizens increased militarization of the police, murder of civilians especially blacks by police institutionalization of lobbying in Washington
Well, I suppose it's just time to sit back, relax and enjoy the crisis.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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