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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I don't really understand your point.
My point is that I don't really understand the point of this thread. I think you're basically saying that people sometimes have a wrong views about history?
Edited by White Beard (11/14/15 08:41 PM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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I don't think what I said is trivial, as it is an insidious set of memes. Although, I'm not sure I've made myself very well understood. I think my above point about hunter-gatherers is a sound example of what I am talking about. Yes, it has to do with people having wrong views about history and prehistory (and especially anthropology) -- in a way that is alarmingly common. If you don't understand the point, I apologize for not making it clearer.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Better to de-construct than misunderstand history.
Getting ready for thanksgiving DQ?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Kurt]
#22524800 - 11/14/15 09:20 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, little get together with the fam. My brother cooks a mean turkey. I look forward to the shrimp dip more than anything, though. You?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Yeah, I haven't seen my own family in a while. Either anticipation or apprehension, I am not sure which.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Kurt]
#22524897 - 11/14/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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You should have sudly do a reading.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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I should.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: People more often than not mistake the history of western civilization for the retelling of the world, which could not be a worse mistake. There were a lot of different people doing a lot of different things all over the planet until relatively recently. While it is true that hierarchy sprang up in many different spots, these were not in our image, and there was plenty of non-hierarchy as well. History is the story of our civilization, not humanity. We have some very wrong ideas when we think about the past with this corrupt bias.
Who are the "people" you refer to. It seems you make a huge generalization, and then accuse others of generalization. And it is trivial that the uneducated are uneducated.
consider this Pulitzer Prize winner, which was not under the radar
Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared M. Diamond (Author)
Guns, Germs and Steel won the 1997 Phi Beta Kappa Award in Science.[8] In 1998, it won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction, in recognition of its powerful synthesis of many disciplines, and the Royal Society's Rhône-Poulenc Prize for Science Books.[9][10] The National Geographic Society produced a documentary of the same title based on the book that was broadcast on PBS in July 2005.[1].
as well as these:
Cannibals and Kings: Origins of Cultures Paperback – June 4, 1991 by Marvin Harris (Author)
Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture Paperback – December 17, 1989 by Marvin Harris (Author)
The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution and Future of the Human Animal (P.S.) Trade Paperback Edition Edition by Jared M. Diamond (Author)
Our Kind: Who We Are, Where We Came From, Where We Are Going by Marvin Harris (Author)
so the material is readily available, a college education is not necessary, just average intelligence, and curiosity. In fact one doesn't even have to read, or even leave home, just surf over to youtube, where Jarred Diamond's talks are available, for free. -----------------------------------
That some percentage of folks would rather watch TV or bet on sports or go to church, than do any reading is I agree perhaps sad.
Edited by laughingdog (11/15/15 05:16 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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It's not just the uneducated being uneducated. If any of you could appreciate how general this phenomenon is, and how ubiquitous, your comments would seem rather lame as you looked at them again. Still, no one has addressed my comments about hunter-gatherers above. Most of our educated people do not understand that. The majority. I feel that is non-trivial.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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what's a non-heirarchical society?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: quinn]
#22526941 - 11/15/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc. And virtually no possessions.
Quote:
At the 1966 "Man the Hunter" conference, anthropologists Richard Borshay Lee and Irven DeVore suggested that egalitarianism was one of several central characteristics of nomadic hunting and gathering societies because mobility requires minimization of material possessions throughout a population. Therefore, no surplus of resources can be accumulated by any single member. Other characteristics Lee and DeVore proposed were flux in territorial boundaries as well as in demographic composition.
At the same conference, Marshall Sahlins presented a paper entitled, "Notes on the Original Affluent Society", in which he challenged the popular view of hunter-gatherers lives as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short," as Thomas Hobbes had put it in 1651. According to Sahlins, ethnographic data indicated that hunter-gatherers worked far fewer hours and enjoyed more leisure than typical members of industrial society, and they still ate well. Their "affluence" came from the idea that they are satisfied with very little in the material sense. This satisfaction, Sahlins said, constituted a Zen economy. Later, in 1996, Ross Sackett performed two distinct meta-analyses to empirically test Sahlin's view. The first of these studies looked at 102 time-allocation studies, and the second one analyzed 207 energy-expenditure studies. Sackett found that adults in foraging and horticultural societies work, on average, about 6.5 hours a day, where as people in agricultural and industrial societies work on average 8.8 hours a day.
Recent research also indicates that the life-expectancy of hunter-gatherers is surprisingly high.
Mutual exchange and sharing of resources (i.e., meat gained from hunting) are important in the economic systems of hunter-gatherer societies. Therefore, these societies can be described as based on a "gift economy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#Social_and_economic_structure
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Still, no one has addressed my comments about hunter-gatherers above.
Why should i repeat on an internet forum what Marvin Harris, has said better than I can, in his highly readable books. I have provided the titles. You are correct that civilization is a disaster. Expecting the average person to see the world this way seems unreasonable. If you were to go to a Buddhist monastery, you would be more likely to find sympathy for such a view.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
laughingdog said: You are correct that civilization is a disaster. Expecting the average person to see the world this way seems unreasonable. If you were to go to a Buddhist monastery, you would be more likely to find sympathy for such a view.
That's true. What's unsettling to me is how many above-average people are not aware of the anthropological reality. I see very destructive ramifications of this in all walks of life. Perhaps I'm making more of this than I should, but I don't think I've been on the same wavelength with most of the contributors in this thread, through no fault of theirs.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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ok who wants to start a hunter gatherer society with me?
like, imagine how much more effective we can be with portable gas stoves and google maps and so on ....
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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there was a study: "People Prefer Electric Shocks to Being Alone With Their Thoughts ."
This is our modern world
https://www.bing.com/search?q=being+alone%2C+electric+shocks&qs=n&form=QBLH&pq=being+alone%2C+electric+shocks&sc=0-17&sp=-1&sk=&ghc=1&cvid=B60EB9C965354637BFD18D1BAED2512F
I'm 'afraid' Aldus Huxley had it pretty much right in "Brave New World" written in 1931 . He was inspired. Watched a corny version of "Brave New World" turned into a film on youtube, but Huxley's ideas shone thru.
Of course he didn't predict everything, who could imagine people would become addicted to phones and little screens? Eisenhower predicted the military industrial complex. But, it seems to me, the modern world has gone beyond corrupt to surreal. even parodying itself. I guess some authors like Joseph Heller (Catch 22) have felt the same way.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Yep.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Hey, if you don't like civilization, then you can get out
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: White Beard] 1
#22528560 - 11/15/15 06:02 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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I do think world history has been watered down in the last couple decades. Not so much to cover up the past but to produce good little consumers. History is now a tool for teaching the values of social justice. Beyond that it currently has no usefulness for the common masses.
That being said, the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate, and perhaps tidbits to demonize the competition, if they had any history lessons at all generally being religious in nature. A person educated in world history has always been the exception.
Perhaps OPs expectations of humanity are a little high?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: misinterpreting history [Re: Rahz]
#22528613 - 11/15/15 06:17 PM (8 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: I do think world history has been watered down in the last couple decades. Not so much to cover up the past but to produce good little consumers. History is now a tool for teaching the values of social justice. Beyond that it currently has no usefulness for the common masses.
That being said, the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate, and perhaps tidbits to demonize the competition, if they had any history lessons at all generally being religious in nature. A person educated in world history has always been the exception.
Quite perceptive. Especially: "...the masses haven't historically been taught anything regarding history except what is culturally appropriate..."
Essential. Very much agreed.
Quote:
Perhaps OPs expectations of humanity are a little high?
Perhaps.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: One that is egalitarian -- that has no leaders or political structures, no threat of coercion, communal subsistence, reciprocity, etc. And virtually no possessions.
Communism has never worked on the large scale in industrial nations.
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