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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
At what point do functional spores develop?
    #22326996 - 10/03/15 06:25 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm curious if anyone knows when the spores in a typical cube mushroom develop?  For example, if you were  to take a mushroom that would grow to lets say 5 inches and pulled it at 2 inches and took apart the closed cap, could you find/extract functional spores or do they develop and become fully functional closer to the moment the cap opens?  Are mushroom spores kind of like seeds with plants that mature close to the moment they are ejected?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflinePsilosoulful

Registered: 09/05/14
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327004 - 10/03/15 06:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If you pulled out the mushroom in the early stages of growth when the cap hasn't formed, spores would not be present. It is only when the cap breaks apart from the veil, that it signals the end of the growth cycle, and spores are rapidly produced.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #22327066 - 10/03/15 07:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
If you pulled out the mushroom in the early stages of growth when the cap hasn't formed, spores would not be present. It is only when the cap breaks apart from the veil, that it signals the end of the growth cycle, and spores are rapidly produced.




So, hypothetically, if you were able to grow a mushroom in absolutely sterile conditions so no contaminants ever touched the growing mushroom and then you pulled it early in it's growth phase, say at 1-2 inches, and were able to slurry the entire mushroom, cap, stem and all, again in totally contaminant free conditions to use that slurry to inoculate a grain jar, there would be no functional spores in the slurry, right?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Registered: 10/24/06
Posts: 3,450
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327074 - 10/03/15 07:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
If you pulled out the mushroom in the early stages of growth when the cap hasn't formed, spores would not be present. It is only when the cap breaks apart from the veil, that it signals the end of the growth cycle, and spores are rapidly produced.




So, hypothetically, if you were able to grow a mushroom in absolutely sterile conditions so no contaminants ever touched the growing mushroom and then you pulled it early in it's growth phase, say at 1-2 inches, and were able to slurry the entire mushroom, cap, stem and all, again in totally contaminant free conditions to use that slurry to inoculate a grain jar, there would be no functional spores in the slurry, right?



this is why we use agar. building a ship in a bottle and all this nonsense only to dump ungerminated spores into a slurry to inoculate grain really isn't getting you anywhere. putting the cap stem and all is essentially just putting mycelium in a slurry and then putting it to grain. No matter how "sterile" you try and do that it is not going to end how you want probably 8/10 times.

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22327078 - 10/03/15 07:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SteveRogers said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
If you pulled out the mushroom in the early stages of growth when the cap hasn't formed, spores would not be present. It is only when the cap breaks apart from the veil, that it signals the end of the growth cycle, and spores are rapidly produced.




So, hypothetically, if you were able to grow a mushroom in absolutely sterile conditions so no contaminants ever touched the growing mushroom and then you pulled it early in it's growth phase, say at 1-2 inches, and were able to slurry the entire mushroom, cap, stem and all, again in totally contaminant free conditions to use that slurry to inoculate a grain jar, there would be no functional spores in the slurry, right?



this is why we use agar. building a ship in a bottle and all this nonsense only to dump ungerminated spores into a slurry to inoculate grain really isn't getting you anywhere. putting the cap stem and all is essentially just putting mycelium in a slurry and then putting it to grain. No matter how "sterile" you try and do that it is not going to end how you want probably 8/10 times.

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.




I think you misunderstood his intentions. He's trying to make an LI from a non-producing fruit by growing it in a sterile environment.

OP - short answer, don't do this. Long answer - 9er tek


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22327079 - 10/03/15 07:16 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SteveRogers said:

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.




I do use agar and understand your point.  I was just curious about when in the growth cycle viable spores were produced in the mushroom cap.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327081 - 10/03/15 07:17 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

SteveRogers said:

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.




I do use agar and understand your point.  I was just curious about when in the growth cycle viable spores were produced in the mushroom cap.




if you have agar, then make LI from your agar plates, not a fruitbody. You stand much much much better chances doing so.


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #22327085 - 10/03/15 07:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:

I think you misunderstood his intentions. He's trying to make an LI from a non-producing fruit by growing it in a sterile environment.

OP - short answer, don't do this. Long answer - 9er tek




Thanks!  I actually randomly stumbled on the 9er tek which is what prompted my question.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleSteveRogers
gandy dancer
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #22327091 - 10/03/15 07:23 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
For example, if you were  to take a mushroom that would grow to lets say 5 inches and pulled it at 2 inches and took apart the closed cap, could you find/extract functional spores or do they develop and become fully functional closer to the moment the cap opens?  Are mushroom spores kind of like seeds with plants that mature close to the moment they are ejected?




I was just responding to this statement initially.
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
So, hypothetically, if you were able to grow a mushroom in absolutely sterile conditions so no contaminants ever touched the growing mushroom and then you pulled it early in it's growth phase, say at 1-2 inches, and were able to slurry the entire mushroom, cap, stem and all, again in totally contaminant free conditions to use that slurry to inoculate a grain jar, there would be no functional spores in the slurry, right?



After re reading this statement though, you are correct that I really don't understand what he is trying to achieve here.
a slurry of the entire cap and stem is essentially just live mycelium in a slurry, but there is no way in hell 98% of the users on this board will be able to pull that off without introducing a contaminant by simply picking a fruit off a substrate and blending the entire thing.

9er Tek is just taking a biopsy or injecting spores...
"Culture source:
Either acquire a spore syringe or get started from a fresh fruit body. Spores can be injected into the whole grain recipe or the MMGG recipe. It /seems/ that spores work better in the MMGG recipe, but more tests need to be made. After getting a strain started, you can farm it for a long time with the procedure below."

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

SteveRogers said:

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.




I do use agar and understand your point.  I was just curious about when in the growth cycle viable spores were produced in the mushroom cap.




if you have agar, then make LI from your agar plates, not a fruitbody. You stand much much much better chances doing so.



exactky what I was trying to say. Thanks.


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #22327093 - 10/03/15 07:23 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

SteveRogers said:

just use agar and save yourself a lot of wasted time, aggravation, and crap shoot genetics. Working with isolates and clones will change your life.




I do use agar and understand your point.  I was just curious about when in the growth cycle viable spores were produced in the mushroom cap.




if you have agar, then make LI from your agar plates, not a fruitbody. You stand much much much better chances doing so.




That's kinda what I do ... but just use the "tiger drop" method into a bag of grain instead of making the LI with a blender, which works fine because it's easy to mush up the agar in a grain bag so it distributes really evenly after you shake it up.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
Waterman


Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22327102 - 10/03/15 07:29 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SteveRogers said:
but there is no way in hell 98% of the users on this board will be able to pull that off without introducing a contaminant by simply picking a fruit off a substrate and blending the entire thing.






If the chosen fruit was grown 100% invitro and was plucked in a SAB, why would it be so difficult to get it contaminant free into a jar to be blended up?  Why is that so much more difficult then blending an agar wedge?  Obviously, if you grow it in a SGFC or mono tub in essentially open air, it would be impossible, but if the jar/bag was never exposed to open air, why wouldn't the fruit be contaminant free?  Isn't this essentially what is done with G2G transfers?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (10/03/15 07:31 AM)


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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327106 - 10/03/15 07:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

SteveRogers said:
but there is no way in hell 98% of the users on this board will be able to pull that off without introducing a contaminant by simply picking a fruit off a substrate and blending the entire thing.






If the chosen fruit was grown 100% invitro and was plucked in a SAB, why would it be so difficult to get it contaminant free into a jar to be blended up?  Why is that so much more difficult then blending an agar wedge?  Obviously, if you grow it in a SGFC or mono tub in essentially open air, it would be impossible, but if the jar/bag was never exposed to open air, why wouldn't the fruit be contaminant free?



try it. I dare ya.
I just don't have time for games like that when I am inoculating 50+ jars of grain.
I isolate on agar. Transfer away from contaminants and bacteria. Then expand it in a liquid medium which can be achieved through a variety of methods.
Saves me a great deal of time, money, and heartache in the long run.
I want clones and 100% clean spawn. blending whole fruit bodies is only going to set that process back.
Quote:

KauaiOrca said:
Quote:

SteveRogers said:
but there is no way in hell 98% of the users on this board will be able to pull that off without introducing a contaminant by simply picking a fruit off a substrate and blending the entire thing.





Why is that so much more difficult then blending an agar wedge?



because
1. you could have had hidden bacteria or contaminants in the invitro jar to begin with.
2. you never transfer or confirm it is clean before expanding the culture.
3. you are not taking a clone, you are going to end up with crap shoot genetics if you just blend an entire fruit body.
4. good luck maintaining absolute sterility in an SAB and throughout the entire invitro grow process. Not saying it is impossible, but just something I would highly discourage without at least a flow hood.


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22327113 - 10/03/15 07:37 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SteveRogers said:

I just don't have time for games like that when I am inoculating 50+ jars of grain.
I isolate on agar. Transfer away from contaminants and bacteria. Then expand it in a liquid medium which can be achieved through a variety of methods.
Saves me a great deal of time, money, and heartache in the end.




I'm not trying to argue with you and 100% agree with you that if starting 50 jars, this wouldn't be the right way to go.  I'm just curious that if G2G transfers work so well that a lot of people do successfully, which is essentially an invitro grow, why wouldn't a small mushroom taken from an invitro environment work essentially the same?  I mean if the grain is clean enough to work for a G2G transfer, why wouldn't a small undeveloped mushroom grown in exactly the same conditions achieve similar results?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327129 - 10/03/15 07:43 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I am going to tap out and let someone else jump in if they want.

To be totally honest I don't do g2g because of almost every reason I discussed above. Losing 50 jars or decreasing my yields because I just took the cleanliness of the spawn for granted doesn't make a lot of sense to me....


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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InvisibleMunchauzen
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327138 - 10/03/15 07:45 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

g2g is not "essentially" an invitro grow. invitro growth means you are fruiting them in the jar. and in the case of grain jars, we never fruit them invitro. they need to be spawned to a substrate.

the bottle tek allows for invitro growth, but you can't really g2g them because they don't shake.

Grinding up primordia has a high probability to inhibit bacterial growth. you can read in Stamet's The Mushroom Cultivator that shaking a jar with primordia and expanding it will lead to bacteria.

Just stick to using agar. You have it, you use it, there is no reason to go hard mode on yourself, really. You have much better tools at your disposal than trying to g2g pins.


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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Munchauzen]
    #22327154 - 10/03/15 07:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

thank god for you munch.
it is too early and I am too hungover to coherently make my point haha


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 3,131
Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22327173 - 10/03/15 08:06 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SteveRogers said:
thank god for you munch.
it is too early and I am too hungover to coherently make my point haha




LOL!  Thanks for your interest in responding ... wasn't trying to abandon the tried and true methods that have proven to work.  I stumbled on something totally new, at least to me, that mushrooms will fruit on RGS invitro without ever opening the jar/bag, without casing it, without doing anything to it ... and it prompted my curiosity, that's all.  I was very surprised when, after inoculating a very small amount of RGS in a quart jar, that mushrooms popped up without any fresh air or anything ... It got ime thinking about a very fast way to go from a MS grow to a clone, not for starting a bulk grow, but more for testing it in one jar quickly.

Again, thanks for all your suggestions!


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


Edited by KauaiOrca (10/03/15 08:07 AM)


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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22327187 - 10/03/15 08:21 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KauaiOrca said:

I stumbled on something totally new, at least to me, that mushrooms will fruit on RGS invitro without ever opening the jar/bag, without casing it, without doing anything to it ... and it prompted my curiosity, that's all.



you can get P. Cubensis to pin off agar, invitro Rye Berries, RGS, any number of things if you just wait around long enough, but again I just don't see the advantage of this at all. and please don't get me started on the whole Violet tek thing or any of that bullshit. Like I said, I just grow mushrooms. I don't build ships in bottles or make this 50X harder than it needs to be. They are just P. Cubensis for god sake.


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


Edited by SteveRogers (10/03/15 08:51 AM)


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: SteveRogers]
    #22328522 - 10/03/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It's been a long time since I have stumbled on someone trashing me in a thread just from idle browsing.
Exactly what "bullshit" are you referring to? What is a "ship in a bottle" when it comes to growing?  What would you do to make growing 50X harder than it needs to be? Do tell!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

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InvisibleSteveRogers
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Re: At what point do functional spores develop? [Re: Violet]
    #22328536 - 10/03/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

not gonna do it Violet. Just not gonna do it. I know you love this stuff, but I am just not starting this again. Good luck OP.


--------------------
"General, I am loyal to nothing......except The Dream"


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