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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Why don't market forces work for healthcare?
    #22314409 - 09/30/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22314561 - 09/30/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22314601 - 09/30/15 03:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.




I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient. I'm actually trying to express a failure of free market ideology, because it doesn't apply to markets with inflexible demand.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22314694 - 09/30/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

A long and complicated subject for sure, the truth is we haven't had a privatized healthcare system in a looooong time. So for those that say it doesn't work, well, how do you know?

A great example of how capitalism has reduced medical costs is eye surgery, because it is not covered by insurance, there is actually a relationship between the provider and the recipient. When first introduced, it was prohibitively expensive, like 20,000$, now you can get it done for under a grand... No health insurance, no govt intrusion, strictly a doctor and his patient. It works very well...

The fact is once you introduce middleman into the doctor patient relationship, costs go up, and quality of care goes down... I've know many Canadians and most don't care for socialized medicine, if it's not an emergency, be prepared to wait a Looooooong time to see a doctor... And those who can afford it, still come to America for medical procedures.


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22315033 - 09/30/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Clearly social healthcare systems are to blame.  If it wasn't for Medicaid and Medicare blah blah blah...

At least, that's the argument I heard a lot when the ACA was going into effect.




I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient. I'm actually trying to express a failure of free market ideology, because it doesn't apply to markets with inflexible demand.




I thought you were looking for the excuse :wink:

But yeah, I agree.  To take HU's lasik example.  Yes, single payer is a good model, rather it's the individual or the government.  Middle-men just skim off the top.  However he seems to be attributing all of the lowered cost to the single payer model while ignoring factors like improved methods lowering liability, improved manufacturing, mass production, etc. etc.  He's also ignoring the viability of a single payer model in which the transaction is between the government and the doctor rather than the patient and the doctor.

Anyway, lol, you know where I stand on this.  But the argument I've often heard is pretty much exactly what came out of HU's mouth.  The market isn't 'free' enough so how would we know?  And, it worked before medicare and medicaid fucked it all up!


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22315203 - 09/30/15 04:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I never said anything about Medicare or Medicaid...(not that facts matter to liberals)

I merely pointed out that none of has even seen anything close to "capitalistic healthcare system" as Bigbaldwoof called it...

And how In the hell did I attribute any lower costs to single payer? Do you even read what was written? Or just see a con and ATTACK!?


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22316121 - 09/30/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah I'm sorry.  I was talking out of my ass.

Anyway I think we agree that insurance companies are a problem.

But I don't think what you said refuted bbws demand problem.  Even in a free market healthcare is inelastic.  Look at the recent case with that prescription drug price increase.  Even without insurance market pressure does nothing to reduce the demand.

It becomes very easy to corner small markets and extort sick people.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22316821 - 09/30/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I never said anything about Medicare or Medicaid...(not that facts matter to liberals)

I merely pointed out that none of has even seen anything close to "capitalistic healthcare system" as Bigbaldwoof called it...

And how In the hell did I attribute any lower costs to single payer? Do you even read what was written? Or just see a con and ATTACK!?




I understand what you're saying. The only problem that I have is that market forces don't apply to inflexible demand, because the demand side has to fluctuate for the 'invisible hand' to play any sort of role.

As far as the market not being free enough, my argument is that Capitalist forces are the reason it is not free, as Marx predicted quite accurately. It's called 'rent-seeking', and it occurs when two conditions are met: when a business grows to such a proportion that it is capable of corrupting the political system, and when the market matures enough that it is more profitable to game the system via corrupting the government, than it is to actually try to outcompete other companies. Either that, or if a company has already monopolized the market, and wishes to continue growth, they look to government.

Corruption is a symptom of a mature Capitalist society. Marx predicted the wealth disparity and corruption that we have today. He was right.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22316901 - 09/30/15 11:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Has anyone heard about the collapse of the Obamacare Exchange in NY?  It's one of the last ones, and several others are collasing, the administration refuses to release information on which ones are deeply in red.

You see, how the exchanges where set up, obama got good old socialists and radicals who he had worked with as a community organizer and allowed them to set up the exchanges.  Of course, not knowing what they were doing, they are collasing due to not understanding risk evaluation and actuary tables and methods.


SO what we need is 'single payer' and have these same fucking morons running the show, right?

every swinging dick in the US had access to healthcare.  people without means had the ability to use public hospitals, etc.  Of course the conditions werent as good and they didn't get top tier treatment, nonetheless they did have basic and emergency healthcare.  Now we have increased costs for everyone, and 100,000 people are losing their healthcare.  And boy, you should see some of the rate increases for next year. 

DUHHHHH....but we need single payer.... :tard:

OK, I will make an admission..  When I was married, my wife had our daugher in a Japanese hospital.  We had US military coverage, and also my wife had japanese coverage because EVERYONE IN JAPAN WHO HAS COVERAGE PAYS IN A FIXED AMOUNt.  No freebies.  its required.  ANd we paid a fixed cost of $500 for my wife to have our daughter.  It wasn't too bad.  I remember thinking THAT system wasn't too bad.

But also the cost...in Japan there is no tort and suing doctors for anything.  A) Trial lawyers in the US are one of the prime reasons for high healthcare costs.  B) People dont take kids to the doctor for a tiny scratch on their hand, etc.  Coverage is for necessary problems.  The US system is abused by people seeing doctors for non-important problems..


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22317621 - 10/01/15 07:03 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Can you backup A with a source?  I know liability insurance covers a lot of lawsuits.

B I disagree with.  Maybe when a kid is small parents will freak out everytime they have a temperature or get a scratch, especially new parents.  But even when healthcare is free it still takes time and possibly time off work (which does cost money) to take a kid in to see the doctor.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22317856 - 10/01/15 08:22 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Single payer is a lot simpler than what we have now, star. If your hesitation is because "liberals are gonna screw it up," I wouldn't worry too much about it. There are far more liberal politicians abroad screwing it up much less than we are.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22319138 - 10/01/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22319206 - 10/01/15 01:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.




"The ACA is a right-wing plan"

It's a crony capitalist plan, I think it's also called "Obama Care".  Is Obama and all the D's "right-wing" or just sellouts?  :lol:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: qman]
    #22319577 - 10/01/15 03:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Clearly the single payer systems around the world are far more cost effective than our system. They have governments that negotiate drug prices, so you dont have assholes taking a $13 drug and raising the price to $6-$700. That, my friend, is capitalist inneficiency.

They can't do it as cheaply, because Mr. CEO needs to line his pockets, like a fucking vulture.

The ACA is a right-wing plan, which is why it doesnt work, because nothing conservatives propose makes any god damn sense. Single payer systems work better the world over, and you can't even compare the ACA to a single payer system. Its apples to oranges.




"The ACA is a right-wing plan"

It's a crony capitalist plan, I think it's also called "Obama Care".  Is Obama and all the D's "right-wing" or just sellouts?  :lol:




What has Obama done that was left-wing? He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations, continued the patriot act, torture, military conquest, he signed the TPP... he talks like a lefty, but his actions are the same shit Romney would have done, and he same shit George Bush did do.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22319621 - 10/01/15 03:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22319668 - 10/01/15 03:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yup.  They're all in the pockets of somebody.  Just different somebodies.

Well all but Sanders and Trump if he ends up elected.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22320279 - 10/01/15 06:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...




You're right. The reason I call Obama a right winger is because he operates on behalf of big business, instead of regarding the interests of the people. Left-wing politics is supposed to be based on populism.

That's why Obama has to lie, and say he's going to do things that he doesn't do, and Republicans can tell you straight to your face "I'm going to cut taxes on the wealthy, I'm going to cut government programs, I'm going to get rid of the minimum wage, I'm going to get rid of Pell Grants and public education, I'm going to torture people and refuse them a trial, I'm going to spy on you for your safety, and I'm going to bomb whoever the fuck I want etc."

By the way, just so you're aware, Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, and raised them for the middle class. He raised taxes more times than he cut taxes.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/01/15 06:05 PM)


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22320807 - 10/01/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?





well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:







--------------------


Edited by starfire_xes (10/01/15 07:44 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22321146 - 10/01/15 08:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

He's continued Bush's tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations...




Exactly, and raised them on the middle class, he's a fucking asshole, that's for sure...

This is what I find funny about the idea that the GOP is the party of Wall Street, the dems get just as much if not more from the big banks and big business...




You're right. The reason I call Obama a right winger is because he operates on behalf of big business, instead of regarding the interests of the people. Left-wing politics is supposed to be based on populism.

That's why Obama has to lie, and say he's going to do things that he doesn't do, and Republicans can tell you straight to your face "I'm going to cut taxes on the wealthy, I'm going to cut government programs, I'm going to get rid of the minimum wage, I'm going to get rid of Pell Grants and public education, I'm going to torture people and refuse them a trial, I'm going to spy on you for your safety, and I'm going to bomb whoever the fuck I want etc."

By the way, just so you're aware, Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, and raised them for the middle class. He raised taxes more times than he cut taxes.




"I call Obama a right winger"

We know he's a true liberal at heart, what do you think what would have happened if he betrayed his owners?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22321637 - 10/01/15 11:12 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm wondering what excuse folks around here have for the incredibly high healthcare costs in America vs countries with Socialized medicine. The "invisible hand" should be smacking the healthcare system up and down, but they can't.

Capitalism is inefficient in the realm of healthcare. Healthcare has a relatively inflexible demand curve, which removes market forces from the equation.

We need Socialism. Arguments?





well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:










Nope. The reason there was so much support for the ACA in the first place is because the Capitalist system wasn't working. The problem with the ACA is that it is too Capitalist. We need a Socialist program, like the rest of the world, so that people don't have to go to Canada to buy prescription drugs.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22322944 - 10/02/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Or go bankrupt if they get sick.


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Offlinepsyconaught
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22323066 - 10/02/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22323069 - 10/02/15 10:59 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




Not even close to regulated enough.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22323171 - 10/02/15 11:25 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




My point exactly with eye surgery, no govt, no insurance companies, and all we've seen is the cost plummet, and the price of all the HEAVILY REGULATED and SUBSIDIZED services keep going up...


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22324048 - 10/02/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22324218 - 10/02/15 03:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.




So why does the price of eye surgery and other cosmetic surgery NOT covered by insurance or regulated by the govt keep going down???


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22324593 - 10/02/15 04:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.




So why does the price of eye surgery and other cosmetic surgery NOT covered by insurance or regulated by the govt keep going down???




The price of all surgeries goes down as the technology matures. The latest and greatest procedures are always expensive.

Eye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22324819 - 10/02/15 05:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.





Or covered by Medicaid or Medicare, I figured you were smart enough to know what was meant, I guess not...


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22325412 - 10/02/15 07:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22325450 - 10/02/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.




Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22325456 - 10/02/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

ye surgery and cosmetic surgery are regulated by government. They just don't deal with insurance companies.





Or covered by Medicaid or Medicare, I figured you were smart enough to know what was meant, I guess not...




Insurance aside, everything medical is highly regulated by the government. Medicaid and Medicare don't have anything to do with what I said.


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22325499 - 10/02/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
The health care industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in the country. Hardly an example of a failure of market forces, the market isn't allowed to operate on health care.




As I've said before, it is the Capitalists who want the regulation that raises prices. Therefore, Capitalism as an economic structure is to blame, because it leads to rent-seeking corporations purchasing regulatory legislation that excludes competitors from the market.

Socialist countries have much cheaper drugs, because their governments encourage competition. They encourage comoanies to produce chemicals cheaply, because the government will only allow the cheapest high quality product to be sold in their country. They make contractual agreements, and companies want those contracts.



what you've described is not capitalism. The marriage of government and corporations is crony capitalism/fascism.




Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22325958 - 10/02/15 09:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.




By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




That's not the same logic at all. There was actual logic behind what I said, several times. I discussed the reason why Capitalism leads to corporate fascism. There is no necessity for Socialism to lead to Communism. Either way, we've never seen Communism as Marx described it. Communism isn't meant to have a centralized power structure.

In fact, there is even a Libertarian/Anarchist strain of Communist ideology.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: psyconaught]
    #22326122 - 10/02/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22326170 - 10/02/15 10:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.




Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?  An elitist ruling class that owned everything, and everyone else a peasant working for the government?  Its the same thing, it has nothing to do with Capitalist or Socialist Governments.  It has to do with government getting so big it is beyond the control of the people.  It's called STATISM.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326194 - 10/02/15 10:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

What condition am I describing?


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22326197 - 10/02/15 10:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Cronyism.  SOrry, I knew I was unclear as to the reference. My bad.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326199 - 10/02/15 10:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

psyconaught said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:

Crony Capitalism is a biproduct of Capitalist forces, as I have described several times in this thread already.



By this same logic communism is a byproduct of socialist forces.
There are bad actors in any situation, so don't let the government chose winners & losers. In order for corporate influence to be affective you need the government willing to cater to them. This is a problem that exists in any form of government ever.




You've actually stumbled onto a point.

Yes, Marx predicted the failures of capitalism that would lead to what you would call "cronyism."

And the transition from capitalism to communism is intended to be socialism. So yes, by that logic, socialism indeed leads to communism, according to Marx at least.




Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?  An elitist ruling class that owned everything, and everyone else a peasant working for the government?  Its the same thing, it has nothing to do with Capitalist or Socialist Governments.  It has to do with government getting so big it is beyond the control of the people.  It's called STATISM.




Not quite. Soviet Russia was brought about via violent revolution, and skipped over Communism. In order for Socialism to work, it must be implemented democratically, and it must arise from a mature Capitalist society. Then from Socialism, Marx postulated that Communism would be the ideal end result, but would not necessarily ever come to be.

I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Socialism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326209 - 10/02/15 10:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Cronyism existed in the USSR because Stalinism was never communism.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22326245 - 10/02/15 10:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:


I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Socialism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.




I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Capitalism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.

You see, it works both ways.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22326276 - 10/02/15 10:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:


I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Socialism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.




I am not a fan of excessive government power. I agree with you on that. Capitalism only works when the people have a firm grip on their government.

You see, it works both ways.




True. I guess, the way I see it, people have to have a firm grasp on their workplace to have a firm grasp on government. Concentration of money and power in corporations and in government are destructive.


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22327251 - 10/03/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?




because when you're dealing in "theory", you can come up with any result you want, when dealing in the real world and the consequences of centralized power, you get exactly what you described...


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #22327373 - 10/03/15 09:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:





do you remember?  As i recall, its was thoroughly shown that the USPS is a functioning social program that competes effectively with private competition.

How about the LADWP? were you in on that convo?  Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't.

As for the ACA, there is really nothing socialist about it.  It is corporate welfare for insurance companies, plain and simple.  The ACA is a perfect example of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis, scam that is perpetuated by the 2 party system.

Dems: we need single payer healthcare.
Republicans: no, we need government to stay out of healthcare
compromise(?): We need the government to force private citizens to buy individual healthcare policies from private insurers.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22327437 - 10/03/15 10:02 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?




because when you're dealing in "theory", you can come up with any result you want, when dealing in the real world and the consequences of centralized power, you get exactly what you described...




So why don't we cede that centralized power to the people instead of 0.01% of the population?


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22327460 - 10/03/15 10:07 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

Then why did Russia end up in EXACTLY the same condition you are describing?




because when you're dealing in "theory", you can come up with any result you want, when dealing in the real world and the consequences of centralized power, you get exactly what you described...




So why don't we cede that centralized power to the people instead of 0.01% of the population?




oh you mean the govt? Im with you on that one, the govt is way to big, centralized, corrupt, and out of control...


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22327552 - 10/03/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, the government. Unless you know of another mechanism the people can use to push common goals...


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22327559 - 10/03/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
well, hey there homer, remember the stuff about the PO?  Maybe 'mandates' are now making healthcare more expensive.  :lolsy:





do you remember?  As i recall, its was thoroughly shown that the USPS is a functioning social program that competes effectively with private competition.

How about the LADWP? were you in on that convo?  Again, much like the USPS, LADWP is profitable, while providing the same services as private competitors, and helping to fund the gov't.

As for the ACA, there is really nothing socialist about it.  It is corporate welfare for insurance companies, plain and simple.  The ACA is a perfect example of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis, scam that is perpetuated by the 2 party system.

Dems: we need single payer healthcare.
Republicans: no, we need government to stay out of healthcare
compromise(?): We need the government to force private citizens to buy individual healthcare policies from private insurers.




USPS is profitable? HAHAHAHAHA Good joke.

The United States Postal Service has run up $4 billion in losses so far this year, on top of last year’s $15.9 billion deficit. Congress is considering legislation to rearrange the deck chairs on the postal Titanic. The only solution is for Washington to get out of the mail business.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2013/08/12/the-post-office-is-broke-its-time-to-end-washingtons-postal-monopoly/

U.S. Postal Service Records Second Quarter Loss of $1.9 Billion
Urges Congress to Pass Comprehensive Postal Legislation
WASHINGTON — The U.S. Postal Service ended the second quarter of its 2014 fiscal year (Jan. 1, 2014 – March 31, 2014) with a net loss of $1.9 billion. This marks the 20th of the last 22 quarters it has sustained a loss.
https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2014/pr14_031.htm


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22327572 - 10/03/15 10:37 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It's already been explained ad nauseum why the USPS is running losses.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22327585 - 10/03/15 10:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Now that the big government is taking over our lives, we can now all celebrate the fact that we are safe and comfy.

I feel good that the government now has an all-access-pass to my medical records.

I personally would never smoke Marijuana because it is illegal. My blood is free of drugs - how about you?

I'm so glad our big government is protecting each and everyone of us. I personally don't have the mental capacity to think for myself - therefore I need the government to help me. Thanks big brother!

I'll feel much better when the government tells us which foods to eat and which herbs to ingest. Can't wait! Thanks Liberals! - the_conservatarian 





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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22329178 - 10/03/15 04:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
on top of last year’s $15.9 billion deficit.




Every time you fucking talk, I feel like you're hurting the IQ of everyone who reads the fucking horse shit you post.

USPS never ran a $16 billion deficit.


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22329238 - 10/03/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
on top of last year’s $15.9 billion deficit.




Every time you fucking talk, I feel like you're hurting the IQ of everyone who reads the fucking horse shit you post.

USPS never ran a $16 billion deficit.




You may want to write a letter to the editor of Forbes magazine, seems you disagree with their info.


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22329428 - 10/03/15 05:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
on top of last year’s $15.9 billion deficit.




Every time you fucking talk, I feel like you're hurting the IQ of everyone who reads the fucking horse shit you post.

USPS never ran a $16 billion deficit.




You may want to write a letter to the editor of Forbes magazine, seems you disagree with their info.




Link it, and I just might do that, because that is a flat out lie! lmao


--------------------
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22329883 - 10/03/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

"Send corrections to corrections@forbes.com"
http://www.forbes.com/fdc/contact.html


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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22330373 - 10/03/15 09:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"Send corrections to corrections@forbes.com"
http://www.forbes.com/fdc/contact.html




Link me the article that says that they ran 16 billion under last year, and I'll be sure to do that, because that is a lie.


--------------------
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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22330503 - 10/03/15 09:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, i fact checked the 15.9 billion number, and it is technically true. here is what happened

Quote:

Due to the passage of P.L. 112-33 which changed the due date of the scheduled PSRHBF prefunding payment of $5.5 billion originally due by Sep. 30, 2011 into 2012, PSRHBF expenses were zero in 2011. As a result, total PSRHBF expenses in 2012, including the previously scheduled prefunding payment of $5.6 billion due by Sep. 30, 2012, were $11.1 billion




http://about.usps.com/publications/annual-reports/2012/annual-report-2012.pdf


https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13_087.htm
Quote:

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Postal Service ended the 2013 fiscal year (Oct. 1, 2012 – Sept. 30, 2013) with a net loss of $5 billion. This marks the 7th consecutive year in which the Postal Service incurred a net loss, highlighting the need to continue to capitalize on growth opportunities, reduce costs, and enact comprehensive legislation to provide a long-term solution to the agency’s financial challenges.

Even though the Postal Service has implemented a number of strategies that resulted in $15 billion in annual expense reductions since the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act was passed in 2006, the combination of onerous mandates in existing law and continued First-Class Mail volume declines threatens the Postal Service’s financial viability.

“We’ve achieved some excellent results for the year in terms of innovations, revenue gains and cost reductions, but without major legislative changes we cannot overcome the limitations of our inflexible business model,” said Patrick Donahoe, Postmaster General and Chief Executive Officer. “Congress is moving forward with legislation that has the potential to give us greater flexibility and put us back on a firm financial footing, and we strongly encourage that they continue moving forward.”




https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2014/pr14_059.htm
Quote:

At the Board meeting, the Postal Service reported that operating revenue increased $569 million in fiscal year 2014 (Oct. 1, 2013 – Sept. 30, 2014). Excluding a one-time adjustment to revenue of $1.3 billion in 2013 resulting from a change in accounting estimate for Forever stamps, 2014 operating revenue would have increased by $1.9 billion. This revenue growth resulted from the January 2014 price increase and strong growth in the Shipping and Packages business. Offsetting this positive news, however, were legislative burdens and constraints that contributed to a $5.5 billion net loss in 2014. This eighth consecutive annual net loss underscores the need for comprehensive legislation to repair the Postal Service’s broken business model.




so, you can see, that these losses are directly tied to the prefunding requirement. basically, they are being forced to sock away much more than necessary, and any money that isn't paid out to retirees each year is loaned to the gov't at roughly 3%.  If the USPS is doing so poorly, why does congress want to skim its retirement fund so heavily?


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22330633 - 10/03/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Ok, i fact checked the 15.9 billion number, and it is technically true. here is what happened

Quote:

Due to the passage of P.L. 112-33 which changed the due date of the scheduled PSRHBF prefunding payment of $5.5 billion originally due by Sep. 30, 2011 into 2012, PSRHBF expenses were zero in 2011. As a result, total PSRHBF expenses in 2012, including the previously scheduled prefunding payment of $5.6 billion due by Sep. 30, 2012, were $11.1 billion




http://about.usps.com/publications/annual-reports/2012/annual-report-2012.pdf


https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2013/pr13_087.htm
Quote:

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Postal Service ended the 2013 fiscal year (Oct. 1, 2012 – Sept. 30, 2013) with a net loss of $5 billion. This marks the 7th consecutive year in which the Postal Service incurred a net loss, highlighting the need to continue to capitalize on growth opportunities, reduce costs, and enact comprehensive legislation to provide a long-term solution to the agency’s financial challenges.

Even though the Postal Service has implemented a number of strategies that resulted in $15 billion in annual expense reductions since the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act was passed in 2006, the combination of onerous mandates in existing law and continued First-Class Mail volume declines threatens the Postal Service’s financial viability.

“We’ve achieved some excellent results for the year in terms of innovations, revenue gains and cost reductions, but without major legislative changes we cannot overcome the limitations of our inflexible business model,” said Patrick Donahoe, Postmaster General and Chief Executive Officer. “Congress is moving forward with legislation that has the potential to give us greater flexibility and put us back on a firm financial footing, and we strongly encourage that they continue moving forward.”




https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2014/pr14_059.htm
Quote:

At the Board meeting, the Postal Service reported that operating revenue increased $569 million in fiscal year 2014 (Oct. 1, 2013 – Sept. 30, 2014). Excluding a one-time adjustment to revenue of $1.3 billion in 2013 resulting from a change in accounting estimate for Forever stamps, 2014 operating revenue would have increased by $1.9 billion. This revenue growth resulted from the January 2014 price increase and strong growth in the Shipping and Packages business. Offsetting this positive news, however, were legislative burdens and constraints that contributed to a $5.5 billion net loss in 2014. This eighth consecutive annual net loss underscores the need for comprehensive legislation to repair the Postal Service’s broken business model.




so, you can see, that these losses are directly tied to the prefunding requirement. basically, they are being forced to sock away much more than necessary, and any money that isn't paid out to retirees each year is loaned to the gov't at roughly 3%.  If the USPS is doing so poorly, why does congress want to skim its retirement fund so heavily?




We've already been over this. The USPS is functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit. They are being forced to put away $5.5 billion a year unnecessarily, and Republicans want to say they are running a deficit.

It is funny, because they say they are doing this to keep the postal service solvent in the future, but in reality it is making it insolvent today.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Invisibleburgerbrain
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22331199 - 10/04/15 02:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

"We've already been over this. The USPS is functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit." -Bigbadwooof

Derp derp derp from your own link "This eighth consecutive annual net loss underscores the need for comprehensive legislation to repair the Postal Service’s broken business model."

How does an annual net loss mean that USPS is "functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit"? HAHAHHA LOL Socialists aren't very bright.


How can we have meaningful discussion when even the basic facts elude socialists?


--------------------


Edited by burgerbrain (10/04/15 02:38 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22333609 - 10/04/15 05:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

How many times can someone point out a fact until you accept it?

But no, the "HAHA HAHA LOL SOCIALISTS" crowd is the one looking for meaningful discussion.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: burgerbrain]
    #22335430 - 10/05/15 01:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"We've already been over this. The USPS is functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit." -Bigbadwooof

Derp derp derp from your own link "This eighth consecutive annual net loss underscores the need for comprehensive legislation to repair the Postal Service’s broken business model."

How does an annual net loss mean that USPS is "functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit"? HAHAHHA LOL Socialists aren't very bright.


How can we have meaningful discussion when even the basic facts elude socialists?




Do you even understand why they wrote that in the article?

Whatever dude. Your confirmation bias is astounding. Its like you have a logic filter.

Let me ask, real quick, are you an evangelical young earth creationist also?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22336205 - 10/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient.





how exactly do you define efficient?


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22336217 - 10/05/15 09:23 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

burgerbrain said:
"We've already been over this. The USPS is functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit." -Bigbadwooof

Derp derp derp from your own link "This eighth consecutive annual net loss underscores the need for comprehensive legislation to repair the Postal Service’s broken business model."

How does an annual net loss mean that USPS is "functioning perfectly fine, and creating a profit"? HAHAHHA LOL Socialists aren't very bright.


How can we have meaningful discussion when even the basic facts elude socialists?




Do you even understand why they wrote that in the article?





would it be because the postal service is a bad business model and is losing
money as opposed to generating a profit, I mean, let's not allow these facts
to invalidate you argument right away, tell us how losing money is the same
as making a profit


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22336220 - 10/05/15 09:24 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm talking about single payer vs the Capitalist style healthcare system we have.

The Socialist system is MUCH more efficient.





how exactly do you define efficient?




Cost effective? Is there another definition?

Having a nation where you can get the best healthcare money can buy is great if you're an oil baron. For everyone else, it's pretty important to not go bankrupt if you fall ill.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #22336239 - 10/05/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

you mean like the great healthcare that Canada has in which their wealthy has to
buy health insurance in order to come to the US for treatment that doesnt require
waiting 2 years on cancer treatment assuming their treatment isnt rejected by the
boards of health

did you think for a minute that we have people that rush themselves and their kids
to the ER for the sniffles or being dope sick or that the ERs are treating millions
of illegals that arent paying the bills and not to mention it expending the
resources of an ER which costs this company money because regulations say they
cannot turn anyone away and have to treat everyone that walks through their doors

that's why private physicians and hospitals treat people and then send bills as
opposed to always collecting when the service is rendered and refusing you when
there's an outstanding bill


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Why don't market forces work for healthcare? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #22336330 - 10/05/15 10:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah it's kinda like how rich people have to pay taxes to fund the police, but can still employ ex special forces security guards if they so choose.

You want everyone to have to fork over the money to pay the special forces guys because otherwise what's the point? If you can't have the absolute best on the market you don't even deserve to be protected.


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