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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track
#22312995 - 09/30/15 08:47 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi All!
It's been a while, and in the meantime I have grown plenty of Ps cubensis in bulk, and I am currently attempting at growing Panaeolus cyanescens for the first time!
I've acquired my spore print from fsre.nl (Thanks Guys!), and have isolated them on PDYA culture dishes, and inoculated plenty of jars and g2g'ed them, all a mix of milo, rye and wheat, because rye was seasonally unavailable during Winter.
I have made up a couple of trays using pasteurized horse manure and Vermiculite (70% and 30% and added Gypsum at 5% of volume). As soon as the trays were 99% colonized, I applied a pasteurized casing layer consisting of 50% Peat Moss and 50% Vermiculite and 2.5% CaOH (hydrated lime) at 1/2" in thickness. Thereafter the trays were placed directly into fruiting conditions - which are 44 qt. Monotubs - with a layer of bubble wrap covering most of the surface of the casing.
I lift the bubble wrap daily, mist (if needed) until just moist, and fan. I have an oscillating fan for circulation, as well as inline fans with ducting for FAE in the room, all of them running most of the time.
Current Temps run between 74°F and 84°C depending on time of day and when the lights are on. Below are pics of the trays colonizing their casing layers properly, now at Day 12 after applying the casing layer and placed into fruiting conditions, and there are yet no signs of pins.
Am I missing something? I have researched on plenty of threads, but get mixed opinions on whether the casing layer should be colonized or not. I have also noted that fruiting them in mono's is trickier, but I am keen to experiment with removing polyfil from eg. the top holes to increase FAE within the mono's.
Thanks in advance!
 
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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EntheoGod
Entheo



Registered: 03/06/15
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22313004 - 09/30/15 08:50 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ill be watching this. Looking to start a new species finally other than cubensis and would love to see how to do it the best way.
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: EntheoGod]
#22335478 - 10/05/15 01:57 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow no responses yet? 
I still have not witnessed any pins (Day 17 since casing and placed into fruiting), and the trays are fully colonized. I can take pics again... I am experimenting with leaving various holes open in the monotubs, with some trays having bubble wrap covers on and others without. I also try and FAE at least once a day, sometimes twice, but otherwise there are the fans running for ventilation and circulation for the entire room. Temperatures tend to stay in the range of 72-79 °F, and I also still mist the casing daily.
Thanks in Advance.
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22335484 - 10/05/15 02:02 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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stop using the bubble wrap and good luck!(the bubble wrap just is not needed with the casing layer)
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: cronicr]
#22335493 - 10/05/15 02:16 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thanks! I will do so! Because I too reckoned that that is the purpose of the casing, right!? 
Would it be okay for the casing's surface to slightly dry out every now and then?

Thanks again Cronicr!
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22335655 - 10/05/15 04:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Crap: I've just thought of something after reading some more posts...
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Michelle M said: 50/50 is a substrate tek typically used for cubes and it actually refers to the author's name (Damion5050) rather than the exact proportions.
No, 50/50 refers to the percentages of peat and verm. We were referring to 50/50 casings for a decade before he joined the boards here.
Use no more than ten percent by volume(to the peat-don't count the verm) when using calcium carbonate. NEVER use dolomite based lime as it's too high in Mg. If using hydrated lime, use at 1:100 to the peat. RR
Maybe I used too much Lime? I added 25mL of hydrated lime to the casing mix, and the volume of peat moss therein was 500mL. If I was to use a ratio of 1:100, the correct amount of lime I needed to add to my casing mix should've been 5mL 
Could this be the reason?
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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Fantastic Mr. Fox
Grass Seed Connoisseur


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 3,225
Loc:
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22335697 - 10/05/15 05:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I see five problems here 1. You added way too much lime to the mix (which can be detrimental to pan mycelia) 2. Your over misting your casing, (not allowing the moisture to evaporate, you just keep on misting) 3. Inadequate FAE/GE w/ bubble wrap. (practically suffocating your sub) 4. Those trays are no good for Panaeolus, the walls are way to high causing stagnant air @ sub lvl 5. Your casing layer is too deep, (1/4" max!)
Panaeolus shouldn't be taking 12-16d to fruit/pin, Pins should have formed by day 5, and matured by day 8-10
-------------------- Giving is all we have, for we're just grateful to be alive

Edited by Fantastic Mr. Fox (10/05/15 05:48 AM)
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox]
#22335781 - 10/05/15 06:44 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi!
Thanks for the insight 
I definitely will be improving on most the points you've mentioned, by:
1.) Rather adding 1 teaspoon (5mL) of hydrated lime per cup of peat moss to my casing mix (I just made a new 2L-batch of 50/50 casing, and thus added 25mL of hydrated lime as I used 5 cups of peat moss with 5 cups of Vermiculite).
2.) Misting I can do less of, as I am always paranoid of the surface getting too dry whilst being absent from "the grow-op" - When do you mist then, as I have read you only stop misting once pins form?
3.) The Bubble Wrap I will remove, but then surely all my monotubs' holes will have to be re-stuffed as per usual with growing cubensis in mono's, otherwise it will be impossible to maintain +95% RH, as it is usually around 80% when I leave the holes unstuffed for extra FAE.
4.) These trays I have used to great success for growing cubensis-species, which I know is more forgiving, but...they'll have to do They fit perfectly inside my mono's, and I have seen a Trusted Cultivator here grow Pans successfully in trays with the same ratio of tray-height to substrate-depth. I will still be fanning them twice a day with the mono's lid, so that should help lower CO2-levels near the substrate's surface.
5.) I will be applying thinner - 1/4" depth max - casing layers to new trays with the new casing-batch I just made, and also I will go to my current trays and scrape some of the colonized casing off with a sanitized fork, as I have recently read that others have done it and achieved success.
Otherwise you reckon the Temps are okay?
Thanks a lot!
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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Fantastic Mr. Fox
Grass Seed Connoisseur


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 3,225
Loc:
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22335833 - 10/05/15 07:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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1. Sounds about right! Do you have PH testing strips? If not, I suggest buying some so you can adjust accordingly. (you want the PH @ 7.5-8) I stopped using hydrated lime. Its way too easy to add "too much"
2. Stop misting all together. Panaeolus likes it a bit on the dry side! I mist once on the first day of fruiting, then I leave it alone! Dont mist again until it has finished flushing. (If the humidity is too low, you can get away with misting the walls, but BECAREFUL NOT TO GET ANY WATER ON THE FRUIT BODIES)
3. Your gonna want the RH to be high to initiate pinning (90-95%) After the full pinset has formed you drop the RH to about 75% and let it rock.. increasing FAE. (your gonna need to fan more than twice a day unless you have one of the poly holes unstuffed.
4. Still stand by my ground.. Those trays are not suited for Panaeoli. Are you referring to "Blue Helix"?? Cause his trays were alot shorter!! Not to mention, he was using a SGFC and/or automated Greenhouse
5. Sounds good,
74°F is too cold for Panaeolus. You want it near 78-80°F && yess, a 4 degree increase can mean/make the world of difference.
-------------------- Giving is all we have, for we're just grateful to be alive

Edited by Fantastic Mr. Fox (10/05/15 07:20 AM)
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DeTwizzle
Anyone


Registered: 06/08/14
Posts: 353
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox]
#22336059 - 10/05/15 08:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Is it just me or does your mycelium look more like cube myc than Pan Cyan....Anyone else see that?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22336207 - 10/05/15 09:20 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ravenfeeder said: Thanks! I will do so! Because I too reckoned that that is the purpose of the casing, right!? 
Would it be okay for the casing's surface to slightly dry out every now and then?

Thanks again Cronicr!
Thats what ya want it to do
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Fantastic Mr. Fox
Grass Seed Connoisseur


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 3,225
Loc:
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: DeTwizzle]
#22348177 - 10/07/15 11:47 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DeTwizzle said: Is it just me or does your mycelium look more like cube myc than Pan Cyan....Anyone else see that?
LOL Yeah looks like cube mycelia in the yellow&purple totes. Hella rhizomorphic
-------------------- Giving is all we have, for we're just grateful to be alive

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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox]
#22349270 - 10/08/15 09:27 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Haha yes it does look Cube-like, but I got the spore print from fsre.nl, labelled "P. Cyan" - Almost thought they meant Psilocybe cyanescens, but it loves the manure
I just scraped all the surfaces, leaving about 1/8" of casing left. Bubble wrap is off and no more misting. I also checked down in between the substrate and tray wall, and man does the mycelium look solid snow white and healthy! ...
Which made me wonder, what if I popped the substrate out and placed it into the mono onto a wire rack, perhaps even adding perlite at the bottom to add humidity - Would it still fruit? I know the sides aren't cased, but that means a crapload of more fresh air around the substrate and no high tray side walls anymore..?
Thanks so far guys, your input helps!
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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Fantastic Mr. Fox
Grass Seed Connoisseur


Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 3,225
Loc:
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22349465 - 10/08/15 10:18 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Leave it where it is..
You should take the poly out of one of the top holes.
&&Forget about them for a few days.
-------------------- Giving is all we have, for we're just grateful to be alive

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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox]
#22352560 - 10/08/15 11:37 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fantastic Mr. Fox said: Leave it where it is..
You should take the poly out of one of the top holes.
&&Forget about them for a few days.
Gotcha! The short side with the lightly stuffed top hole is facing towards the oscillating fan which is roughly 7 feet away, together with the ventilation ducting system, so I reckon I'd rather leave that hole open than the hole on the farthest side which is facing the wall 
Thanks Fantastic Mr. Fox, let's see what develops in the next couple of days!
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22419658 - 10/22/15 06:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hi All,
Just a small update, and a question... 
Firstly, my Temp's are more stable now, and the scraped trays haven't produced any pins yet. Two I have tossed due to trichoderma contamination, and I have cased 6 fully colonized, 2" deep trays (which are horse-cow manure mixed substrate) to a depth of 1/8", with the correct amount of hydrated Lime adjusting it to a pH of 8. They are placed into fruiting conditions, and I gave them a decent mist - the only one they'll receive - and mycelium should soon poke through.
The humidity within the mono's are suprisingly stable, even if I leave an upper hole unstuffed. And I try and FAE when I can with the lids, about twice or thrice a day. So let's see if I can cultivate some Panaeolus cyanescens 
My Question though... Below is a picture of two spore prints, both I received from FSRE (Thank you),and the one I am growing now is the "P. Cyan"-one. Later on I received the "Pan cyan Jam"-one, after I was already cultivating the former. Could it be that the "P. Cyan"-one is perhaps Psilocybe cyanescens? I know it is woodloving and can colonize on rye berries, but can it also colonize horse/cow manure? The rizomorphic properties of this grow also made me wonder... 
-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: ravenfeeder]
#22419821 - 10/22/15 07:31 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ugh! writing P. Cyan is just dumb, it could be both no way to know what the dude who donated thought..
may be someone who can distinguish the myc from each other tho, I dont have much exp with psi cyan really ..
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



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Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: spacechildo]
#22419874 - 10/22/15 07:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm sure you could distinguish them on agar. Psilocybes (except grass lovers) generally get very rizmorphic, whereas I've never seen rizmorphic pans
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Mad Season]
#22419905 - 10/22/15 07:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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looking good so far. good luck!
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ravenfeeder
Wherever I May Grow



Registered: 01/29/13 
Posts: 238
Loc: South Africa
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: 1st Attempt at Growing Panaeolus cyanescens - Unsure if on the right track [Re: Mad Season]
#22421322 - 10/23/15 02:57 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: Ugh! writing P. Cyan is just dumb, it could be both no way to know what the dude who donated thought..
may be someone who can distinguish the myc from each other tho, I dont have much exp with psi cyan really ..
Lol, I know right? Really bright! 
Quote:
Mad Season said: I'm sure you could distinguish them on agar. Psilocybes (except grass lovers) generally get very rizmorphic, whereas I've never seen rizmorphic pans
Thanks! I've inoculated some new agar dishes with the "P. Cyan"-spores, so once it's running nicely, I'll post some close-ups, in case someone can identify it by studying the mycelium's morphology 
In the meantime, below's a pic of a close-up of a "P. Cyan"-spawn jar g2g'ed a couple of days ago - perhaps it will already help with identification.
Thanks for all the input so far - you guys rock! 

And here's a cased tray at Day 9 showing fierce mycelial growth, but if I compare it to others' Pan cyan grows, it looks almost too rizomorphic, and doesn't have that typical, cottony look...

-------------------- "Live & Let Live"
     
Edited by ravenfeeder (10/23/15 06:07 AM)
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