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Offlineamyloid
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unsterilized casing?
    #2231010 - 01/09/04 02:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)



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Invisiblemicro
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: amyloid]
    #2231027 - 01/09/04 02:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Bigger flushes resulting from microflora is probably the most common reason I've heard, but like you said p.c. is really easy, so it's not a huge factor here. Agaricus, for example, though, needs some microflora (or activated charcoal) to fruit, at all.

I don't bother sterilizing my casings because it takes too long.

--
Micro


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: amyloid]
    #2231074 - 01/09/04 02:45 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I always sterilize my casing mix. As Micro pointed out, bacteria are not known to be important in the fruiting of cubensis.

I find the addition of a buffer (oyster shell) to be much more important in a good casing mix. If the pH is balanced properly the casing layer is much less prone to contamination.

Joshua


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: micro]
    #2231471 - 01/09/04 05:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

yea i have 2 jars of 50/50 coir verm, one pc'd and one that wouldnt fit in the pc'er both are showing no signs of contams after 2 months.

can this microflora be cultivated and added after sterilization?


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: amyloid]
    #2231516 - 01/09/04 05:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

IMO, while it is true that microflora are not known to stimulate fruiting in cubensis the way theyt do in other species, they do protect a casing from contamination. They in a sense, occupy territory that more harmful contams would like, therefore making it less likely to contaminate.

But, the difference is trivial if noticable at home at all given all the other variables. So sterilize or not, it seems to not matter much, with cubes.


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OfflineTeon
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: mycofile]
    #2231730 - 01/09/04 06:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

My Hamster has only once ever had a good flush come out of an unsterilized peat-based casing before contams set in. If you can pull it off, then more luck to you, but anymore my Hamster find the notion of using anything unsterilized in his lab to be absurd. Personally, I agree with him.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Teon]
    #2232035 - 01/09/04 09:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)



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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: ]
    #2232422 - 01/10/04 12:54 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've noticed that microwaving the coco-coir / vermiculite / lime works pretty good.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2232486 - 01/10/04 01:27 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That is pretty ambiguous. It is, to me, like saying, "Heating the casing works well."

By microwaving one can acheive both pasteurisation and sterilisation depending on the duration and intensity of radiation.

I sometimes use the microwave as well, I use it to sterilise the casing mix. The microwave is very nice for a quick fix. I prefer a PC though.

Joshua


--------------------
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Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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OfflineTeon
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Joshua]
    #2232496 - 01/10/04 01:30 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, but packing casing into jars is a (most unnecessary) pain in the ass.


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Don't just assume anything I or anyone else says is true. Test it for yourself. See if it's true.
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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Joshua]
    #2232498 - 01/10/04 01:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say that all sterilization done in the microwave that utlizes liquid is considered pasteurization. Microwaving until the casing layer is steaming, then stir, then do it again. The radiation plus the heat definatly does a great job of sterilizing the casing layer. I'm somewhat hesitant to call it "sterilization", as I do not personally believe that this brings about a condition of true sterility. This is more of a "high level disinfection". Let it cool in the microwave.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2232573 - 01/10/04 02:08 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree, I think the method would be considered high-level disinfection, which for our use is probably just as good as sterilisation.

Joshua


--------------------
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Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Teon]
    #2232576 - 01/10/04 02:11 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You shouldn't just say a method is bad without offering a reason or a decent alternative....what do you suggest?

I pack my jars and find it to work very well for my needs. I can do several jars and then use them individually when I need them.

I'm always open for better methods though.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2233021 - 01/10/04 12:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i think its a waste of time using the microwave.


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: amyloid]
    #2233038 - 01/10/04 12:31 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Again..."You shouldn't just say a method is bad without offering a reason or a decent alternative....what do you suggest?"

I think it is a waste of time to offer opinions without any reasoning behind them.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Joshua]
    #2234283 - 01/11/04 04:44 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think it is a waste of time to offer opinions without any reasoning behind them.

...are you being serious or just a dick?

i think everyones opinion wether supported by information or not, is not a waste of time, im sorry if my opinion is a waste of time for you.

information can be wrong, blind guesses can be right. ever hear of the chaos theory?

everyone's opinion is equally important. please respect that.


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: amyloid]
    #2236630 - 01/12/04 10:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I can't respect empty words, such as an opinion without any reasoning given to back it up. I questioned your reasoning, and you still could not explain your opinion.

This is advanced cultivation.

How can anyone learn from vague statements, especially if one can't follow any reasoning that led to the opinion.

I do respect opinions in general, but as you know they are a lot like assholes...if you can't explain why yours is any better or different than the next, it's just another in a world that lacks any shortage of them.

"everyone's opinion is equally important. please respect that."

I cannot respect that...I definately respect some opinions far more than others...especially on a site like this where uneducated users pass their fluff off as knowledge. I've got use my natural knowledge filter to filter the good from the bad and both from the unsubstantiated.

No ill meant, I was only hoping to gain insight on your opinion.

And directly toward your original statement...I use the microwave when I am in a hurry and don't have time to fire up the PC. I find it saves time, so am interested in hearing why, to you, it is a waste of time.

Joshua


--------------------
The Shroomery Bookstore

Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Joshua]
    #2236817 - 01/12/04 12:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

from my limited exp with microwaving, i feel that it is just as useful as crossing your fingers. all my opinions are based on assumptions, some happen to have some sceince behind them to help convince me.


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: Joshua]
    #2236870 - 01/12/04 12:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Just because I love semantics, I'd like to chime in on the microwave sterilization/pasteurization/high level disinfection issue.  I think a better term for this that is already in use in our hobby would be super-pasteurization.  Stamets uses this term to refer to a pasteurization treatment which exceeds the typical 170* F threshold, usually by heating to around 200*F but without using the increased pressure and temperature of an autoclave/pc.  So, I would use the word super-pasteurization since the microwaved casing mix will likely exceed the standard pasteurization paramaters but will not be as thorough as an autoclave.
(I know it's largely irrelevant, just a thought that occurred to me while reading)

On the general issue of sterilizing or not, I think peat based casings take more care to formulate them exactly if not sterilizing and I should have mentioned this.  Due to peat's acidity (and the fact that since it is decomposing organic matter it is obviously a good substrate for microorganisms), it needs to be carefully adjusted to favor mycelium over contams.  This is usually done by nailing the pH perfectly, and also by keeping conditions in the growroom favoring mycelium (constant airflow and temp most importantly).  If, unlike on professional farms, your methods and set-up don't favor mycelium drastically (which is likely), I would recomend sterilizing peat based casings.  Admit it, very few of you have growrooms/chambers that truly have constantly circulating air with fresh air exchanges optimized for daily changing conditions like the pros do.

Coir doesn't have these problems because it is not as attractive a substrate for contams as peat is.  This is not only due to it's natural properties, but also the fact that the way it is prepared and shipped does not favor contams to thrive as opposed to peat which is shipped as a thriving ecosystem of micro-organisms living on the peat.

So far as method of treatment I have found both the microwave and the pc to be sufficient in preparing casing mix.  The microwave is certainly not a waste of time, although the specifics will have to be worked out for varrying batch sizes and microwave powers specific to each individual.  I never found pcing jars of casing to be particularly ass-paining, although I do think that it's much easier to pc a bag full of mix (held closed with just a clothes pin or such).  For coir based mixes, I found the easiest method of heat treatment was to simply rehydrate the coir with boiling water instead of the tap-hot water the directions call for, then the microwave and pc are avoided.

Nobody ever accused me of not providing detail to go with my opinions :wink: but I just like to type I guess.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: unsterilized casing? [Re: mycofile]
    #2236892 - 01/12/04 12:54 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I use unsterilized peat + lime (just peat + lime.) I've never had a big problem with contamination.

You can sterilize it in your oven, if you want, instead of the microwave.

--
Micro


--------------------
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(Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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