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Revolted627
Hidden Hippie



Registered: 09/05/13
Posts: 34
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo
#22307513 - 09/29/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok so all of my successful monotubs were spawned with a manure substrate that I purchased online. When I attempted to make my own substrate and pastuerize it at 160 degrees for 1 hour I had all 4 of my tubs fail. When I looked up the substrate I was buying on the Internet it said it was sterilized. I emailed the owner about his process and told him I was under the impression that sterilized substrate is bad. This is the response I got
Hello, Sterilized manure works just as well as pasteurized difference is it can keep unused for up to one year. If you require pasteurization simply write the request in the comment box at the time of check out and we will get it done for you .
Now based on everything I read here at the shroomery I would say this guy is mistaken and that his substrates should have a high contam rate but they don't. I've made 6 tubs with this substrate with no contams. Could somebody please explaim this to me.
Now if what he is saying is true then I could theoretically pressure cook my sub at 15 psi for 90 minutes and have the same success as someone who is pastuerizing theirs?
-------------------- You are the universe experiencing itself
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Revolted627]
#22307551 - 09/29/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Revolted627]
#22307553 - 09/29/15 11:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Except you need microbes. Manure is FULL of it. It's actually in quite a few documents that you want to hydrate it and let it sit for a bit before pasteurization so the beneficial microbe count can be higher prior to pasteurization. Pasteurization kills about 75% of the microbes, as well as killing almost all of the molds.
There are some thermophilic microbes as well that will thrive at higher temps and take over the manure if you slowly cool it over night. By doing so it'll get colonized by beneficial microbes that won't let invaders like trich in.
Also lastly pasteurization imo shouldn't go past 155. The closer to 140 you are in the center of the substrate you're pasteurizing, the better. I do 140-150 for 1 hour. Almost all molds die at 130 for 30 minutes, so really anything more kills beneficial microbes.
Tell that dude that i still at this moment have hydrated, properly pasteurized manure in open air, in my basement that has ZERO visible molds. BTW I just found this lost in my basement a few days ago:

and the manure still isn't contaminated. This leads me to believe that as long as your manure is properly pasteurized any contaminations like trich are always from bad spawn. I'd bet a major difference between now and back then is the cleanliness of your spawn as well.
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Mad Season]
#22307588 - 09/29/15 11:11 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Revolted627
Hidden Hippie



Registered: 09/05/13
Posts: 34
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: blackdust]
#22307619 - 09/29/15 11:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok so if you "need microbes" then why does the sterilized manure that I order off the Internet work great? By great I mean 20 pounds of the sterilized sub filled 2 tubs and produced 3 flushes of around 3 dry ounces each. We'll that was great for me anyways
-------------------- You are the universe experiencing itself
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Revolted627]
#22307632 - 09/29/15 11:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I explained why. If you're interested in microbes more read this:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/remlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=149258&F_Board=23&Thread=6945858&Main=6945858
and read the last paragraph of my previous comment. Clean spawn will always prevail. That and proper pasteurization. Which in your op you said you did 160. Which is more for dairy. Not manure.
Try leaving hydrated sterilized manure with no spawn out for months like my pasteurized manure. Watch what happens when you don't have microbes.
Edited by Mad Season (09/29/15 11:25 AM)
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Mad Season]
#22308039 - 09/29/15 12:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey mad, do you think the same is true for straw, re low temp short pasteurization. Had a bit of contam trouble w. My straw, maybe ill try to keep the temp lower and the time shorter.
@op, if all the things you and the vendor said are true, then the spawn was most likely the problem.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Straw has a much lower microbe count than manure. This is why manure in conjunction with stuff like coir and straw is great because as it cools overnight the microbes will colonize the straw and coir.
If I remember correctly, straw is supposed to be done in a hydrated lime water bath. By raising the pH of the water to 11ish, the straw will have a ph of 8-9. It'll make it so myc will tolerate it, but contams won't germinate. Obviously straw has some microbes we want to keep alive. Just not nearly as much as manure . I've never done just plain straw. I wanna experiment with that now lol. I wish I could have more of an explanation, but I can only say what I've read. I've always used manure and straw. Not straw by itself
But yeah lower temps (closer to 140) and shorter time will always be more beneficial in this hobby, and is what this hobby considers a proper pasteurization.
Edited by Mad Season (09/29/15 12:59 PM)
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Revolted627
Hidden Hippie



Registered: 09/05/13
Posts: 34
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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@op, if all the things you and the vendor said are true, then the spawn was most likely the problem.
I think you are right about the problem. Time to try again with some clean spawn.
yeah just to be clear I wasnt trying to say the pastuerization was cause of my problems I was just questioning why some people like FrankHorrigan say "If the temp goes over 170F for more than ten or fifteen minutes, you will start to partially sterilize your substrate. It'd be best to toss it and try again. Since we spawn to bulk in open air, a partially sterilized substrate is often as shitty as an unpasteurized substrate."
I spawned to bulk in open air with sterilized manure based substrate and it did just fine for 3 flushes.
-------------------- You are the universe experiencing itself
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Revolted627]
#22308235 - 09/29/15 01:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah it can be done as you've seen. But a proper pasteurization will last much longer, giving a longer time frame for myc to colonize it. If you can colonize quickly with clean spawn even sterilized subs can get colonized before contams. But a sterilized sub left out for too long will turn really nasty. At least that's what happened when I tried:)
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: sterilization vs pastuerization hpoo [Re: Mad Season]
#22308457 - 09/29/15 01:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Try leaving hydrated sterilized manure with no spawn out for months like my pasteurized manure. Watch what happens when you don't have microbes.
 What it comes down to is sterilized manure supports the growth of Trichoderma while spores added to pasteurized manure usually won't grow and simply decrease over time. That's not to say sterilized manure will always contaminate or pasteurized manure will never contaminate. I mean the spawn is ultimate food source for molds and you're not to grow much with that so there's always a risk. It's just a matter of what is the best practice with the lowest contamination rate.
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