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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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I've got a question to see if anyone has ever done this or have an opinion on it. I am having good success with Violet's culturing system which is essentially invitro zip-loc jars with RGS only. The RGS will pin and grow without even opening the jar so I'm thinking ... could I wait till a few first pins show up before I"ve opened the jar (the jar should be contam free) and then just pluck the pin in a SAB and transfer it to a PC'd RGS grain jar about half full ... shake it up really good ... Would it grow out from that pin? I would think contam risk would be very low as nothing was ever exposed to open air???
Second question is if I let a mushroom grow out fully in the invitro jar without opening it, waiting till the cap opens and is ready to drop spores, could I remove the cap in a SAB (remember, opening the zip-loc jar for the first time) and then just drop the open, ready to drop spores cap into a waiting PC'd grain jar? I would think the cap would be contam free as the jar it grew in was never opened??? This gets a new MS grow going right on PC"d RGS with no interim step(s) of printing, agar, etc. Anyone ever tried either of these two techniques or have an opinion to share? Thanks for any response. Edited by KauaiOrca (09/29/15 09:43 AM)
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Noob Slayer Registered: 11/26/03 Posts: 6,274 Loc: N38.93829W119.98 |
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Both ideas should work in theory. Give it a shot.
-------------------- Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you. My Legacy https://www.shroomery.org/forum Teh=The I need to proofread
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I wear tights! Registered: 05/26/15 Posts: 122 Loc: nevernever land |
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Yes.
-------------------- Second to the right and then straight on till morning!
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Smurf real estate agent Registered: 04/30/13 Posts: 61,889 Loc: Milky way |
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if you want to build a ship in a bottle for no good reason then go for it. it sounds way harder than actually doing a good job as to not have to worry about everything being 100% sterile just to get some shrooms though.
back in the day before even I signed up here lots of people did pins to grain or biopsy tissue to grain, but things got a little more advanced. you can go back and use last decades techniques but there's a reason why things moved forward. while yes, people succeeded, they didn't do so as often or as well as they do now using more rigorous techniques. look up the 9er tek. you don't even need a sterile-in-vitro mushroom. not to be a dick but when I see people so overly concerned about contamination risks and steirle spore prints, and sterile fruit bodies etc.. it just makes me think they actually suck at growing mushrooms hence why they're worring about stupid shit like that. whne the real investment should be in the skill not the corner cutting. --------------------
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Thanks for the reply. Just FYI, I'm doing spore prints to agar to LC's to grain ... the whole "updated" system and have had success with it. That isn't really the issue. My sense is, with this site, there's a pretty strong bias with the experienced people to get into bigger, monotub type grows as some kind of rite of passage as having arrived as a cultivator. For me, I just don't need that much production for me and a few friends. The main reason I made this post is to look for the most simplified system of producing, with a few very stealthy jars a month producing an ounce or so dry with a system that perpetuates itself and cuts out three major steps ... printing, agar and making a clean LC/LI. It eliminates a fruiting chamber like a SGFC or Monotub, eliminates spawning the grain to a substrate and makes contamination such a minuscule risk that it's practically nil. The reason why low contams is so important is so you can just keep starting jar after jar from the first couple of pins that show up without having to clean up the pins on agar ... Most of what I was doing with agar I can also do with a small jar of RGS and with RGS, you can get some great pins really quick. Anyway, not trying to argue, just to help you understand why I asked the question. The big benefit of invitro, if you find a strain that thrives on it because a lot of them don't, is how easy it is. I'm continually amazed how many big shrooms will grow off of a half pint of RGS with a vermiculite casing and bottom watering. Super easy ... way easier than PF Tek, IMHO. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Smurf real estate agent Registered: 04/30/13 Posts: 61,889 Loc: Milky way |
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I go small too, I haven't done my "rite of passage" either,
![]() But still pull off an open air tray somewhere inconspicuous unless you want to hide it in a closet --------------------
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Open air tray? Where I live it is super dry so it would be very difficult to maintain the kind of humidity needed without constant attention, I'd think. It seems with open air, your spore print is going to need to go to agar first ... + a couple of transfers. Anyway, I was just looking for a super simple kinda wholistic method. Clean pins and caps to keep the cycle going indefinitely with no agar and no LC/LI needed. I just looked up the 9er tek ... that is complicated ... shroom water ... blender ... fruiting chamber ... lots of steps. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master Edited by KauaiOrca (09/29/15 06:29 PM)
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Fungus Punk Registered: 04/20/14 Posts: 13,394 Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours |
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You just have to pay a lot of attention to misting if you fruit trays in the open air
I dunno man honestly I think it would be better just to drop that pin on agar.. you also have the added bonus of being able to store that clone culture in the fridge while you are fruiting it out to test it
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: The thing is, I don't need or even want HUGE grows and just so long as I have decent grows going continuously with a jar or two giving me 50-100g (wet) a week, I'm happy. I'd much rather have just a steady, always fruiting grows ( some fruits every week) rather than a huge grow here and there. I'm just trying to find a way to keep a grow going indefinitely without agar, LC's, LI's, slants, spore prints or fruiting chambers ... easy ... virtually no contams ... That's what I'm looking to do. I'm amazed how well the bottom watering approach works with RGS. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Smurf real estate agent Registered: 04/30/13 Posts: 61,889 Loc: Milky way |
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--------------------
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Noob Slayer Registered: 11/26/03 Posts: 6,274 Loc: N38.93829W119.98 |
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Quote: Wow! Someone else who grows like me. I got called and idiot a few weeks back for saying that I compress the substrate and grow with no holes in my tubs. People act like it's hard to grow. They build these elaborate tubs that dry out their substrate. Then they wonder why they have piss poor pin set. So happy to see a tub without holes -------------------- Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you. My Legacy https://www.shroomery.org/forum Teh=The I need to proofread
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hookers and blackjack Registered: 09/16/12 Posts: 12,666 Loc: Canada |
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And when that happens you just tell them to mist better. The point bod was making is that he doesn't have a lid on it and it's in 20-40% humidity, in the open air. Misted when needed. At least that's what I gathered?
-------------------- Improve your sterile techniques! (A comprehensive guide to agar) Links upon links of literally EVERYTHING UP TO DATE AMU Q&A No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Fungus Punk Registered: 04/20/14 Posts: 13,394 Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours |
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Quote: Edited by mushpunx (09/30/15 05:57 AM)
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Vermiculite Hater Registered: 12/08/14 Posts: 3,038 Loc: The Sporetorn States Last seen: 3 months, 20 days |
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Yes, tissue to grain works. I did quite a bit of it myself before I got agar powder. It takes forever to expand, so unless you just wanna do 1 time throwaway clones for a few jars, it really sucks.
I think leaving an open grain jar for long enough to get enough spore matter is risky and inviting problems. If you wanna do this kinda thing, put the cap over a jar of sterilized water on a wire rack, then suck syringes out of that. IMO you're thinking about easy continuous growing the wrong way, as a perfect selfperpetuating cycle. That will always be more work and more risk than putting in the work to get a constant clean source of inoculant that'll last year's. Here's what I'd do. Get a clone you like. Put it on agar. Noc up a master grain jar, then suck up some mycellium into a clean syringe off the plate and store both in the fridge. Pc a spoon with each of your small batches, g2g. When your master jar gets low, g2g another master from what's left. After doing that once or twice, start a new master from your mycellium water syringe with a few drops. I don't see why you'd avoid agar though. It always makes this Shit cleaner and easier. -------------------- I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube." No, this does not look right...
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Nice! How big a tub is that? Is this an example of an "open air grow" in that you grow this without the top on the tub? What is the RH (roughly) of where you live? I live in a very arid climate with RH from 10-20% on average. I just got this from a zip-loc jar about half filled with only RGS and cased with a very thin layer of verm. 2nd flush ... invitro. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master Edited by KauaiOrca (09/30/15 06:40 AM)
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Smurf real estate agent Registered: 04/30/13 Posts: 61,889 Loc: Milky way |
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46quart
like that when I'm home or with the lid completely off. when I'm gone I put it on with just a few air gaps my RH is like I said 20-40 usually, winter soon it will be 0-20 --------------------
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: 46 quart tub definitely qualifies as bulk grow, at least in my book. That changes the dynamics a lot in terms of spawn > substrate > casing > fruiting ... Wouldn't even consider doing that method without agar first and making 100% sure grain/spawn is very clean. Obviously you've got your system really dialed in ... With a small grain jar (fruits right off the RGS) that colonizes very quickly, the factors are completely different because the contamination risk is so much lower invitro. At any rate, I got a really helpful PM on using clean pins to colonize small grain jars so I think I'll give it a shot. I'll post in a few months what happens. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Stranger Registered: 05/28/15 Posts: 181 Last seen: 4 months, 15 days |
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Quote: I made an attempt at this last week. So far everything looks good, It's moving along much slower than the jars I g2g'd the same day though.
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: I was thinking of dropping the pin into a very small jar of grain ... like maybe a half inch or so in a pint sized jar ... shaking up like crazy then letting it colonize (shouldn't take too long because of so little grain) then making a grain LC out of it ... Could test out 4-5 pins pretty quickly to find one that's a winner. Something different to try, anyway. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Smurf real estate agent Registered: 04/30/13 Posts: 61,889 Loc: Milky way |
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Quote: they're all in-vitro if you consider I left them in the jar and used sandwich bags as humidity tents, the tub is fruited a grocery store bag humidity tent they're all fruited open air when I'm home or with a humidity tent for when I'm away. you could stuff the bottles in a mini mono or a lot of bottles in a regular mono too. unless you're completely unable to fruit without contamination unless you do the completely in-vitro setups then I don't see why you wouldn't want to try to maximize the yield for your work and jar size by doing easier work as you can see though most of what I did were a few bottles here and there, no right of passage ammounts of shrooms being grown. --------------------
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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Hey again Orca, I'll just respond to you in the thread here instead of continuing in PMs, I like it public more :]
Very nice grow there! Might you post your other pictures here? Even in the tek threads? Looks like your cakes are a little tall, well over a cup (half-pint) or about 250mL in volume. That may partially contribute to your nice yield, and also certainly contributes to pushing up over the edge of the container where the lid would be otherwise. Not that it's a problem, and some strains will grow that tall sometimes even with cakes that are only 1/4 of the container, but I've found exactly one cup to be just right all-around. If you leave the lids on, they'll just bend a bit as they grow anyway. There is a little improved bang-per-container factor using deeper cakes with RGS specifically, though, so I wouldn't necessarily advise you to change that, just keep it in mind if you haven't. As for your questions about skipping agar... I have two suggestions. One- keep in mind that dropping pins in substrate will be VERY slow growing out, as it looks like you've been told. Because you're waiting on the pin's recovery back to growing as regular mycelium, and then as growth from a single inoculation point. Your idea of shaking it hard in a grain petri container may or may not improve that. With something like that in particular, it's possible you'll have to wait the additional recovery time for beating it up, if it does even spread much mycelium throughout the substrate. But, I do suppose it's the only main way to clone a pin without going to agar (or a biopsy to LC - eww) or doing multi-step options like blenders and sterile water. That said, the slurry method will inoculate a few containers with one pin and grow over MUUUUUCH faster. Remember what I told you before - that one major reason to go to agar first is to separate what may be two or four individual genetics in that one pin. That's the only way you can actually be sure that you're seeing what could be consistent traits from a culture. You just can't beat agar, and I promise that it's not so hard that it's not worth it even to a small grower like yourself if you're wanting to work with culture at all. Especially with agar methods like mine that tie in so well with the tek! And, you're already doing the culture tech to find your cultures, right? Two- I wouldn't necessarily advise dropping a sporulating cap into a new substrate. It would work for sure, as far as getting growth. But that growth would be different than with young healthy pins, and there's a chance that growth would over-ride any potentially germinating spores dropped. Here are a few pictures of pins I waited a bit too long to transfer. They ended up continuing growing and even opening their caps. The growth did expand as mycelium before spores germinated, and it was NOT an ideal recovery and regrowth. So, here's the suggestion: Spore syringes! They actually work GREAT with the culturing tech, specifically the grain petris. Just a single drop of spore solution into the center of a grain dish skips the step of germinating those spores on agar first. Take your prints as you normally would (if using my culture tech method, by putting a sporulating invitro cap in a sterilized container with a piece of foil) and make a spore syringe. It's a little bit more tedious than dropping a sporulating cap in a single container, but it's far more worth it. Instead of needing a new cap for each container, one print taken and one strong syringe made can go for HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of cultures started, without the poorer growth of the original cap having an advantage in the substrate container with them. EDIT: You can also sterile swab sporulating gills and then swipe the swabs on things! -------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts • Edited by Violet (09/30/15 11:45 AM)
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Thanks Violet. What I found, with this strain and where I live, is that once the pins start really growing, it helps A LOT to take the top off the jar and get them a lot more fresh air. They just took off in size when I did that. I think humidity becomes a lot less of a problem when they're over half grown and, with bottom watering, they have all the water they want/need. It's pretty amazing how fast the suck up the water! The jars that I didn't remove the lids on grew smaller, lest robust fruits, for sure, even with lids turned open as much as possible. The lids on through the early pinning stage is good, but once they get to 2-3 inches, the lid coming off and some misting is definitely the way to go. Of course, if you want a really clean cap to print, that's another issue entirely.
Another thing I've found is that less grain in the jar actually makes a difference in the early pinning stage as I think it has an impact on the fresh air in the jar ... but I'm not really sure. I just know that the jars I put less grain in pinned faster on the first flush. Didn't really matter much though because on the second flush with more fresh air, they all really took off. I got this strain with the picture from spore solution > small grain jar > pin to agar > 2 transfers > LC from agar > LC to grain jars that are in the pictures so I know how to do that and have a really good LC now. Just for the heck of it I'm going to try the pin > small clean grain jar and see what happens. I'll post the results in a couple months. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Vermiculite Hater Registered: 12/08/14 Posts: 3,038 Loc: The Sporetorn States Last seen: 3 months, 20 days |
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Just to give you a bit of insight into the problems with this:
Say 1/8 cup rgs in a half pint. *pin too small & rgs too dry, it may never get rolling *shaking: I'd you shake, any contams that would have appeared only on the surface due to lapses in sterile tecnique can now be anywhere. In addition, if the small amount of rgs sticks, it may not even have the weight to break itself up. Even if it does have the weight, significant amounts of grains will get stuck to the side of the container. Assuming you can get a decent shake expect 2 weeks minimum and likely more to colonize. Also keep in mind that if any bacteria are left in the grains, they have weeks to fester. This, combined especially with any lapse in sterile procedure, make glc a scary prospect. With a piss ez nopour agar plate, you can probably get enough growth in 10 days to Noc up all your jars and feel good about it, and stick that plate in your fridge incase you roll a winner. -------------------- I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube." No, this does not look right...
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: Thanks M! All good insights and helpful. What I have a hard time understanding is why a small pin does better growing out on an agar plate than in a very small jar of grain? I absolutely get how easy it is to see contams on the agar plate and those advantages, that's obvious ... but why would a pin grow out better/faster on agar than on a small "plate" of grain? -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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You know Orca I've simply never thought to try that.
You're exactly right - after fruits have been growing (if it's an even flush) humidity is no longer an issue, especially with watering. The fruits don't need such high humidity once they're more than a third grown and won't abort, and with numerous fruits above the substrate surface radiating humidity there's no concern about the surface drying in these containers, which would be the only concern for the fruiting surface for the future flushes. How cool. I should have realized! As long as there's an even flush, the high walls around the fruits defend the substrate below from drying, and at the very bottom is water to uptake to keep the fruits growing AND account for extra moisture loss to the open top. It probably wouldn't work nearly as well in rooms with stirring air, since the humidity would constantly be stolen, but with reasonably calm air it will allow for some fast and hardy growth without sacrificing defense from drying. Thanks so much! This could be an added option to the invitro tek! -------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: With all the help I got from you, it feels great to chip in at least one tiny idea for you ... Another idea I just had I'm going to try is I just prepared another few jars of RGS and I put the grain water in quart jar and PC'd it with the grain jars and now have it sitting in the fridge. When it comes time to bottom water next time, I'm going to try it with the sterilized grain water on a jar or two just for the hell of it. I guess there is some added contam risk, but I'd guess very low as the grain water will be at the bottom of the jar surrounding well established mycelium. The mycelium literally has to suck it up because it's using the water for the growing pins ... I wonder if it will have an impact and I'll have an easy visual (almost like a fuel gauge) of how much grain water gets sucked into the fruiting cake. Theoretically, that grain water is going to be moving through the mycelium artery network to make its way up into the fruits so who knows, maybe it will serve as fertilizer? Worth a try. That's what I love about these little PP5 jar grows. It's so easy to experiment without fearing losing a tub or even a large bag. Total grain risk per jar is probably 25 cents or less. That flush from those two jars I sent you the picture of came out to 153 grams wet. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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That's a really good first flush yield from two containers! Awesome!
The culturing tek DOES pay off too, doesn't it? Makes me wish more posts like yours came in time for the great V-Tek controversy of 2 years ago, when it would have proven several people to be negativists that were biased and full of hot air. It also would have shown several honest and good people that they needed to try again, maybe in a slightly different format, before they judged the tek for their initial so-so results. Because more than not, the status of these methods remaining that of an outlier is due to those factors. Especially Pasty's V-Tek threads, despite how well he meant. As for watering with grain water... It has come up before in the actual tek thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/ Quote: Oh hey, that post is where I came up with the tag title for this tek! Which reminds me. Don't let people tell you that your choice to use methods like these somehow means you're "lazy" about developing clean technique skill. That's an utter lie, as this technique actually requires just as much clean technique as any. In fact it requires MORE cleanliness than the process of spawning to bulk usually involves. 100% of this grow is done with the same clean technique processes that only STARTS those bulk sub methods, and ALL of the major grow teks. Anyone bullying people over sterile skill for using my teks, or for having questions like yours starting this thread, are little more than trolls that have an explicit bias against this tek specifically. There's no reason not to use techniques that make the job easier. Skills can be made totally unnecessary by technique. It's the very basis for platitudes such as "work smart, not hard." If the arrangement of method reduces effort and total cultivator involvement to end up with the same results or better, then that's nothing but a win, and no snarky comments or downplay can change that. -------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts • Edited by Violet (09/30/15 02:33 PM)
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: I hear ya. It's the distinction between prevention and repair. Bottom line is you still have to get a good clean inoculant of some sort to really get anything going ... even a clean spore solution so that, at least to me, is the common denominator. Keeping the growing environment sterile as the first few pins pop up, to me, has some HUGE benefits and can really shave some steps and time from the process. That's what a good process does ... it eliminates unnecessary steps. The moment you don't need that sterile environment, though, then open up to more fresh air and if you've cased it, the drying out risk is pretty much mitigated as well. But hey, if you're going to do a big mono tub grow, that's a whole other process. Your method is infinitely better than PF-Tek, which I think, is extremely tedious in comparison with only one possible benefit being you can do it without a pressure cooker ... which is kinda silly, really. RGS is really the way to go, IMHO, for people that just want smaller, dependable low contam risk grows. When I see thread after thread of people struggling with the PF Tek method, preparing lids, mix verm/BRF, PC, SAB, 4 inoculation points, waiting weeks for growth, hard to shake in full glass mason jars, dunking, rolling, preparing a SFGC, drilling holes, perlite, misting, fanning 3-5 times a day, worrying about how much to mist or how little ... damn, that's a lot going on. Compared to ... buy ziplock PP5 jars > boil RGS for a half hour and strain > PC > inoculate > colonize > case > harvest ... and, you can get really clean/sterile pins to easily make some good new cultures (I suspect without even Agar, but we'll see) ... I mean, damn, that's a lot easier. No comparison really. Yielding 2-3 60-120gram flushes per jar ... with less than half a jar of grain and a tablespoon of verm to case it ... cheap, easy, fast. In terms of the grain water, what makes what I'm suggesting possibly different is we know that the cakes really suck up water when they are in the stage where the mushrooms are maybe about an inch or two high and quickly growing. If that is the only time the grain water is added, then it is literally sucked into the cake pretty much immediately and in a couple of days when you harvest, you rinse it out of the jar so it doesn't stay in the jar long enough to do a lot of damage. Grain water for bottom watering in the fast growth days only, is my thinking. Seriously, how much bacteria growth can happen in 2 days at the bottom of the jar with sterile grain water? With the jars, it's so easy to pull out the cake at harvest, rinse them off and then wash out the jar before you put them back in so the grain water never really sits around and coagulates. At least that's my thinking. The culturing tek is FANTASTIC ... I found a really good culture in about 6 weeks with it. That's pretty fast. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Registered: 12/06/11 Posts: 4,205 |
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Exactly! Prevention vs. repair.
I just prefer to keep things clean. It's easy for me and there's no reason not to. If I can carry from one spore generation to the next to the next without ever having even the possibility of hurdling a contamination, why not? (Of course, that's with keeping my cultures on agar etc.) Not to mention, it's hard for me to believe that anyone who learns agar within my techniques wouldn't be able to transfer away from contamination if any when they come. ... You're right, you can definitely do that with grainwater agar and have no real issue. One of my remaining thoughts though is that, where the water itself would be absorbed, the grain matter in it may not, remaining on the outside of the cake - and as the proportion of grain starch in the remaining water increases as water leaves, it may mean globby condensed grainwater between the cake and the container. Definitely try it! Let's see how it goes! I'll elaborate on just one thing though as you make your hypotheses and develop expectations. My thread where I measure what may be the typical strength of grainwater Around 300mL of "clear/opaque" grainwater (not the settled thicker bottom grainwater) probably has about 2 to 3 grams of grain matter, according to my tests. Quote: To net around 300% B.E. from my containers of about 55-60 dry seed each (I do exactly 1 cup, and typically get 200-400% B.E. from gs depending on culture and how long I let it fruit) would be about 17 dry grams, 170 wet. So subtracting the about ~55mL of water in that seed initially, the containers will need to be fed at least 120mL of water if they get that much yield. More if you lose more moisture, which opening the lids during cropping like you do may require. So if you bottom-water 140mL of water over the course of a grass seed cake's main 4 flushes using grainwater, you may have added 1.5 grams of grain matter. ... If the math works out. But at least this is good for a general idea. If so, and if the mycelium even DO use that grain matter from the grainwater, netting what might be a max of 200%BE off of it would increase your yield by about... 0.3 grams dried. Take the math exercise for what you will, just thought you might keep it in mind! Experiments are good! -------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Quote: You probably know 100x more about this stuff than I do ... I was thinking more along the lines of plants, I guess. A little bit of fertilizer can make a huge difference in terms of quality and size of fruits, flowers, etc. Doesn't seem, at least with them, to have anything at all to do with the "weight" of the fertilizer, but then again, they're drawing from soil, sunlight, etc. so the correlation may be irrelevant. At any rate, the grain water is free ... so why not? I'm just going to rinse/wash the cake and jar really good after harvest and only do it for the second flush ... so not much to lose. The truth is, Violet, it really isn't necessary. When 1/3 of a jar of hydrated RGS (less than 25 cents?) yields over 15grams dry with just bottom watering, that's efficient enough for me. I definitely do think the strain/culture makes all the difference in the world with invitro growing ... When you find the right strain, everything changes in terms of ease and productivity. A lot of strains (most?) just don't work well with invitro ... at least that's my experience and perhaps why, initial results for many are disappointing and you got the negativity? Since I always did invitro, starting with myco-bags, I wasn't deterred by the first few failures ... Now that I've got a great strain, it's super easy. Of course, your culturing tek will find the right strain, but I'd suggest anyone doing it start with the South American strain as both times I ordered those spores, they proved to be a perfect match for invitro and most other spores weren't nearly as well suited to this method. I don't buy the "a cube is a cube" saying at all. Big differences in terms of growing preferences at the MS stage ... and that goes well beyond cloning and culture isolation. BTW, I made some new "lids" by getting some clear thick sheet vinyl at a hobby shop that gives the jars 4" (could be more if you want it) of more headroom and probably more air and light too. and they work GREAT! Fruits are free to grow taller and I think it solves the fresh air issue completely while keeping most contams out. Bottom water, mist once a day maybe and golden. They look "happier" with a little more living space too ... haha. -------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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Waterman Registered: 08/12/08 Posts: 3,131 |
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Violet - These little clear "hoods" give them a lot more room to spread out once the grow gets past the need to keep everything super clean ... (getting prints or pins) ... And they're getting a lot more air. Happier too!
-------------------- "The universe is endless, limitless and infinite. Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance. We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end. There is only memory. Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends. Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations. Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death." -- Ancient Taoist Master
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