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InvisibleViolet
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Registered: 12/06/11
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22313568 - 09/30/15 11:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Hey again Orca, I'll just respond to you in the thread here instead of continuing in PMs, I like it public more :]

Very nice grow there!  Might you post your other pictures here?  Even in the tek threads?
Looks like your cakes are a little tall, well over a cup (half-pint) or about 250mL in volume.
That may partially contribute to your nice yield, and also certainly contributes to pushing up over the edge of the container where the lid would be otherwise.  Not that it's a problem, and some strains will grow that tall sometimes even with cakes that are only 1/4 of the container, but I've found exactly one cup to be just right all-around. If you leave the lids on, they'll just bend a bit as they grow anyway.
There is a little improved bang-per-container factor using deeper cakes with RGS specifically, though, so I wouldn't necessarily advise you to change that, just keep it in mind if you haven't.


As for your questions about skipping agar...  I have two suggestions.


One- keep in mind that dropping pins in substrate will be VERY slow growing out, as it looks like you've been told. Because you're waiting on the pin's recovery back to growing as regular mycelium, and then as growth from a single inoculation point.
Your idea of shaking it hard in a grain petri container may or may not improve that.  With something like that in particular, it's possible you'll have to wait the additional recovery time for beating it up, if it does even spread much mycelium throughout the substrate.

But, I do suppose it's the only main way to clone a pin without going to agar (or a biopsy to LC - eww) or doing multi-step options like blenders and sterile water.  That said, the slurry method will inoculate a few containers with one pin and grow over MUUUUUCH faster.

Remember what I told you before - that one major reason to go to agar first is to separate what may be two or four individual genetics in that one pin.  That's the only way you can actually be sure that you're seeing what could be consistent traits from a culture.

You just can't beat agar, and I promise that it's not so hard that it's not worth it even to a small grower like yourself if you're wanting to work with culture at all.  Especially with agar methods like mine that tie in so well with the tek!

And, you're already doing the culture tech to find your cultures, right?


Two- I wouldn't necessarily advise dropping a sporulating cap into a new substrate.  It would work for sure, as far as getting growth.  But that growth would be different than with young healthy pins, and there's a chance that growth would over-ride any potentially germinating spores dropped.

Here are a few pictures of pins I waited a bit too long to transfer.  They ended up continuing growing and even opening their caps.  The growth did expand as mycelium before spores germinated, and it was NOT an ideal recovery and regrowth.


So, here's the suggestion:
Spore syringes!
They actually work GREAT with the culturing tech, specifically the grain petris.
Just a single drop of spore solution into the center of a grain dish skips the step of germinating those spores on agar first.
Take your prints as you normally would (if using my culture tech method, by putting a sporulating invitro cap in a sterilized container with a piece of foil) and make a spore syringe.
It's a little bit more tedious than dropping a sporulating cap in a single container, but it's far more worth it.
Instead of needing a new cap for each container, one print taken and one strong syringe made can go for HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of cultures started, without the poorer growth of the original cap having an advantage in the substrate container with them.

EDIT:  You can also sterile swab sporulating gills and then swipe the swabs on things!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


Edited by Violet (09/30/15 11:45 AM)


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Violet]
    #22313710 - 09/30/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks Violet.  What I found, with this strain and where I live, is that once the pins start really growing, it helps A LOT to take the top off the jar and get them a lot more fresh air.  They just took off in size when I did that.  I think humidity becomes a lot less of a problem when they're over half grown and, with bottom watering, they have all the water they want/need.  It's pretty amazing how fast the suck up the water!  The jars that I didn't remove the lids on grew smaller, lest robust fruits, for sure, even with lids turned open as much as possible.  The lids on through the early pinning stage is good, but once they get to 2-3 inches, the lid coming off and some misting is definitely the way to go.  Of course, if you want a really clean cap to print, that's another issue entirely. 

Another thing I've found is that less grain in the jar actually makes a difference in the early pinning stage as I think it has an impact on the fresh air in the jar ... but I'm not really sure.  I just know that the jars I put less grain in pinned faster on the first flush.  Didn't really matter much though because on the second flush with  more fresh air, they all really took off. 

I got this strain with the picture from spore solution > small grain jar > pin to agar > 2 transfers > LC from agar > LC to grain jars that are in the pictures so I know how to do that and have a really good LC now.  Just for the heck of it I'm going to try the pin > small clean grain jar and see what happens.  I'll post the results in a couple months.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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OfflineMachiavelliavore
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Violet]
    #22313728 - 09/30/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Just to give you a bit of insight into the problems with this:
Say 1/8 cup rgs in a half pint.
*pin too small & rgs too dry, it may never get rolling
*shaking:  I'd you shake, any contams that would have appeared only on the surface due to lapses in sterile tecnique can now be anywhere.  In addition, if the small amount of rgs sticks, it may not even have the weight to break itself up.  Even if it does have the weight, significant amounts of grains will get stuck to the side of the container.

Assuming you can get a decent shake expect 2 weeks minimum and likely more to colonize.  Also keep in mind that if any bacteria are left in the grains, they have weeks to fester.  This, combined especially with any lapse in sterile procedure, make glc a scary prospect.

With a piss ez nopour agar plate, you can probably get enough growth in 10 days to Noc up all your jars and feel good about it, and stick that plate in your fridge incase you roll a winner.


--------------------


I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister.  I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave.  I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent.
Triggered yet?

Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."


No, this does not look right...


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Machiavelliavore]
    #22313838 - 09/30/15 12:34 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Machiavelliavore said:
Just to give you a bit of insight into the problems with this:
Say 1/8 cup rgs in a half pint.
*pin too small & rgs too dry, it may never get rolling
*shaking:  I'd you shake, any contams that would have appeared only on the surface due to lapses in sterile tecnique can now be anywhere.  In addition, if the small amount of rgs sticks, it may not even have the weight to break itself up.  Even if it does have the weight, significant amounts of grains will get stuck to the side of the container.

Assuming you can get a decent shake expect 2 weeks minimum and likely more to colonize.  Also keep in mind that if any bacteria are left in the grains, they have weeks to fester.  This, combined especially with any lapse in sterile procedure, make glc a scary prospect.

With a piss ez nopour agar plate, you can probably get enough growth in 10 days to Noc up all your jars and feel good about it, and stick that plate in your fridge incase you roll a winner.




Thanks M!  All good insights and helpful.  What I have a hard time understanding is why a small pin does better growing out on an agar plate than in a very small jar of grain? 

I absolutely get how easy it is to see contams on the agar plate and those advantages, that's obvious ... but why would a pin grow out better/faster on agar than on a small "plate" of grain?


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22313876 - 09/30/15 12:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You know Orca I've simply never thought to try that.
You're exactly right - after fruits have been growing (if it's an even flush) humidity is no longer an issue, especially with watering.  The fruits don't need such high humidity once they're more than a third grown and won't abort, and with numerous fruits above the substrate surface radiating humidity there's no concern about the surface drying in these containers, which would be the only concern for the fruiting surface for the future flushes.

How cool.  I should have realized!  As long as there's an even flush, the high walls around the fruits defend the substrate below from drying, and at the very bottom is water to uptake to keep the fruits growing AND account for extra moisture loss to the open top.

It probably wouldn't work nearly as well in rooms with stirring air, since the humidity would constantly be stolen, but with reasonably calm air it will allow for some fast and hardy growth without sacrificing defense from drying.

Thanks so much!
This could be an added option to the invitro tek!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Violet]
    #22314123 - 09/30/15 01:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:
You know Orca I've simply never thought to try that.
You're exactly right - after fruits have been growing (if it's an even flush) humidity is no longer an issue, especially with watering.  The fruits don't need such high humidity once they're more than a third grown and won't abort, and with numerous fruits above the substrate surface radiating humidity there's no concern about the surface drying in these containers, which would be the only concern for the fruiting surface for the future flushes.

How cool.  I should have realized!  As long as there's an even flush, the high walls around the fruits defend the substrate below from drying, and at the very bottom is water to uptake to keep the fruits growing AND account for extra moisture loss to the open top.

It probably wouldn't work nearly as well in rooms with stirring air, since the humidity would constantly be stolen, but with reasonably calm air it will allow for some fast and hardy growth without sacrificing defense from drying.

Thanks so much!
This could be an added option to the invitro tek!




With all the help I got from you, it feels great to chip in at least one tiny idea for you ... Another idea I just had I'm going to try is I just prepared another few jars of RGS and I put the grain water in quart jar and PC'd it with the grain jars and now have it sitting in the fridge.  When it comes time to bottom water next time, I'm going to try it with the sterilized grain water on a jar or two just for the hell of it.  I guess there is some added contam risk, but I'd guess very low as the grain water will be at the bottom of the jar surrounding well established mycelium.  The mycelium literally has to suck it up because it's using the water for the growing pins ... I wonder if it will have an impact and I'll have an easy visual (almost like a fuel gauge) of how much grain water gets sucked into the fruiting cake. Theoretically, that grain water is going to be moving through the mycelium artery network to make its way up into the fruits so who knows, maybe it will serve as fertilizer?  Worth a try.  That's what I love about these little PP5 jar grows.  It's so easy to experiment without fearing losing a tub or even a large bag.  Total grain risk per jar is probably 25 cents or less. That flush from those two jars I sent you the picture of came out to 153 grams wet.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22314402 - 09/30/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

That's a really good first flush yield from two containers!  Awesome!
The culturing tek DOES pay off too, doesn't it?

Makes me wish more posts like yours came in time for the great V-Tek controversy of 2 years ago, when it would have proven several people to be negativists that were biased and full of hot air.
It also would have shown several honest and good people that they needed to try again, maybe in a slightly different format, before they judged the tek for their initial so-so results. Because more than not, the status of these methods remaining that of an outlier is due to those factors.  Especially Pasty's V-Tek threads, despite how well he meant.


As for watering with grain water... It has come up before in the actual tek thread
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21392623#21392623
Quote:

Violet said:
Yeah I mulled it around once and came to that conclusion sortof, at least the part about bacteria.
Grain water is a highly bio-active medium like grains and agar - in fact I use it for agar!
Allowing it to be unsterile, or even sterile but in an unsterile environ, as a liquid would certainly allow a bloom of bacteria before it would be fully absorbed, depositing all contams to the side/bottom of the cake.

Though, I do feel that mycelium could utilize the nutrition.  If they didn't absorb it with the water, mycelium would fuzz up to reach out and take it.
Thing is though that my experiments have shown that only 4-12% of grain matter is lost to prep water, depending on the grain and preparation. To me this indicates that the potential yield boost in the roughly 80-150mL of the "clear" liquid post-settling fed to the cake couldnt boost the yield enough to be worth it, even if the contam risk was low.
I did play with the idea of sterilizing the "clear" grain water and watering the still-sterile cakes in still-air or sterile airflow, for kicks, but realistically it wouldn't be worth it.

So especially since I'd like to aim this thread for beginners, culturers, stealth lovers, lazy people, and those interested in exploring alternative teks, the official stance is going to be "don't water with nutritious liquid"

:thumbup:




Oh hey, that post is where I came up with the tag title for this tek!


Which reminds me.
Don't let people tell you that your choice to use methods like these somehow means you're "lazy" about developing clean technique skill.  That's an utter lie, as this technique actually requires just as much clean technique as any.  In fact it requires MORE cleanliness than the process of spawning to bulk usually involves.  100% of this grow is done with the same clean technique processes that only STARTS those bulk sub methods, and ALL of the major grow teks.
Anyone bullying people over sterile skill for using my teks, or for having questions like yours starting this thread, are little more than trolls that have an explicit bias against this tek specifically.
There's no reason not to use techniques that make the job easier.  Skills can be made totally unnecessary by technique.  It's the very basis for platitudes such as "work smart, not hard."  If the arrangement of method reduces effort and total cultivator involvement to end up with the same results or better, then that's nothing but a win, and no snarky comments or downplay can change that.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


Edited by Violet (09/30/15 02:33 PM)


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Violet]
    #22314646 - 09/30/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

Which reminds me.
Don't let people tell you that your choice to use methods like these somehow means you're "lazy" about developing clean technique skill.  That's an utter lie, as this technique actually requires just as much clean technique as any.  In fact it requires MORE cleanliness than the process of spawning to bulk usually involves.  100% of this grow is done with the same clean technique processes that only STARTS those bulk sub methods, and ALL of the major grow teks.
Anyone bullying people over sterile skill for using my teks, or for having questions like yours starting this thread, are little more than trolls that have an explicit bias against this tek specifically.
There's no reason not to use techniques that make the job easier.  Skills can be made totally unnecessary by technique.  It's the very basis for platitudes such as "work smart, not hard."  If the arrangement of method reduces effort and total cultivator involvement to end up with the same results or better, then that's nothing but a win, and no snarky comments or downplay can change that.  :thumbup:




I hear ya.  It's the distinction between prevention and repair.  Bottom line is you still have to get a good clean inoculant of some sort to really get anything going ... even a clean spore solution so that, at least to me, is the common denominator.  Keeping the growing environment sterile as the first few pins pop up, to me, has some HUGE benefits and can really shave some steps and time from the process.  That's what a good process does ... it eliminates unnecessary steps. The moment  you don't need that sterile environment, though, then open up to more fresh air and if you've cased it, the drying out risk is pretty much mitigated as well.  But hey, if you're going to do a big mono tub grow, that's a whole other process.  Your method is infinitely better than PF-Tek, which I think, is extremely tedious in comparison with only one possible benefit being you can do it without a pressure cooker ... which is kinda silly, really.  RGS is really the way to go, IMHO, for people that just want smaller, dependable low contam risk grows.  When I see thread after thread of people struggling with the PF Tek method, preparing lids, mix verm/BRF, PC, SAB, 4 inoculation points, waiting weeks for growth, hard to shake in full glass mason jars, dunking, rolling, preparing a SFGC, drilling holes, perlite, misting, fanning 3-5 times a day, worrying about how much to mist or how little ... damn, that's a lot going on.  Compared to ... buy ziplock PP5 jars > boil RGS for a half hour and strain > PC > inoculate > colonize > case > harvest ... and, you can get really clean/sterile pins to easily make some good  new cultures (I suspect without even Agar, but we'll see) ... I mean, damn, that's a lot easier.  No comparison really. Yielding 2-3 60-120gram flushes per jar ... with less than half a jar of grain and a tablespoon of verm to case it ... cheap, easy, fast.

In terms of the grain water, what makes what I'm suggesting possibly different is we know that the cakes really suck up water when they are in the stage where the mushrooms are maybe about an inch or two high and quickly growing.  If that is the only time the grain water is added, then it is literally sucked into the cake pretty much immediately and in a couple of days when you harvest, you rinse it out of the jar so it doesn't stay in the jar long enough to do a lot of damage.  Grain water for bottom watering in the fast growth days only, is my thinking.  Seriously, how much bacteria growth can happen in 2 days at the bottom of the jar with sterile grain water?  With the jars, it's so easy to pull out the cake at harvest, rinse them off and then wash out the jar before you put them back in so the grain water never really sits around and coagulates.  At least that's my thinking. 

The culturing tek is FANTASTIC ... I found a really good culture in about 6 weeks with it.  That's pretty fast.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleViolet
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22316414 - 09/30/15 09:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Exactly!  Prevention vs. repair.
I just prefer to keep things clean.  It's easy for me and there's no reason not to.  If I can carry from one spore generation to the next to the next without ever having even the possibility of hurdling a contamination, why not?  (Of course, that's with keeping my cultures on agar etc.)
Not to mention, it's hard for me to believe that anyone who learns agar within my techniques wouldn't be able to transfer away from contamination if any when they come.
...


You're right, you can definitely do that with grainwater agar and have no real issue.
One of my remaining thoughts though is that, where the water itself would be absorbed, the grain matter in it may not, remaining on the outside of the cake - and as the proportion of grain starch in the remaining water increases as water leaves, it may mean globby condensed grainwater between the cake and the container.

Definitely try it!  Let's see how it goes!

I'll elaborate on just one thing though as you make your hypotheses and develop expectations.
My thread where I measure what may be the typical strength of grainwater

Around 300mL of "clear/opaque" grainwater (not the settled thicker bottom grainwater) probably has about 2 to 3 grams of grain matter, according to my tests.

Quote:

My straight-grain cakes of grass seed weigh average ~115 grams with ~58 of that being seed, making them ~50% water with ~60 grams of water at the most.
Since mushrooms are ~90% water, that means I cannot grow more than 6 dry grams from that container in the first flush (without watering).  Likely less since some is lost over time and evaporation.
I expect at least two to three times that much yield from said containers, so they'll need well over two or three times that much water to do it, hence bottom-watering.




To net around 300% B.E. from my containers of about 55-60 dry seed each (I do exactly 1 cup, and typically get 200-400% B.E. from gs depending on culture and how long I let it fruit) would be about 17 dry grams, 170 wet.  So subtracting the about ~55mL of water in that seed initially, the containers will need to be fed at least 120mL of water if they get that much yield.  More if you lose more moisture, which opening the lids during cropping like you do may require.

So if you bottom-water 140mL of water over the course of a grass seed cake's main 4 flushes using grainwater, you may have added 1.5 grams of grain matter.
... If the math works out.  But at least this is good for a general idea.
If so, and if the mycelium even DO use that grain matter from the grainwater, netting what might be a max of 200%BE off of it would increase your yield by about...
0.3 grams dried.

Take the math exercise for what you will, just thought you might keep it in mind!
Experiments are good!


--------------------
Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it!

PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers
The simplest, quickest, safest tek!  For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers!
Violet's Teks and Posts


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: Violet]
    #22317637 - 10/01/15 07:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Violet said:

So if you bottom-water 140mL of water over the course of a grass seed cake's main 4 flushes using grainwater, you may have added 1.5 grams of grain matter.
... If the math works out.  But at least this is good for a general idea.
If so, and if the mycelium even DO use that grain matter from the grainwater, netting what might be a max of 200%BE off of it would increase your yield by about...
0.3 grams dried.

Take the math exercise for what you will, just thought you might keep it in mind!
Experiments are good!




You probably know 100x more about this stuff than I do ... I was thinking more along the lines of plants, I guess.  A little bit of fertilizer can make a huge difference in terms of quality and size of fruits, flowers, etc.  Doesn't seem, at least with them, to have anything at all to do with the "weight" of the fertilizer, but then again, they're drawing from soil, sunlight, etc. so the correlation may be irrelevant. 

At any rate, the grain water is free ... so why not?  I'm just going to rinse/wash the cake and jar really good after harvest and only do it for the second flush ... so not much to lose.

The truth is, Violet, it really isn't necessary.  When 1/3 of a jar of hydrated RGS (less than 25 cents?) yields over 15grams dry with just bottom watering, that's efficient enough for me.

I definitely do think the strain/culture makes all the difference in the world with invitro growing ... When you find the right strain, everything changes in terms of ease and productivity.  A lot of strains (most?) just don't work well with invitro ... at least that's my experience and perhaps why, initial results for many are disappointing and you got the negativity?  Since I always did invitro, starting with myco-bags, I wasn't deterred by the first few failures ... Now that I've got a great strain, it's super easy.  Of course, your culturing tek will find the right strain, but I'd suggest anyone doing it start with the South American strain as both times I ordered those spores, they proved to be a perfect match for invitro and most other spores weren't nearly as well suited to this method.  I don't buy the "a cube is a cube" saying at all.  Big differences in terms of growing preferences at the MS stage ... and that goes well beyond cloning and culture isolation.

BTW, I made some new "lids" by getting some clear thick sheet vinyl at a hobby shop that gives the jars 4" (could be more if you want it) of more headroom and probably more air and light too.  and they work GREAT!  Fruits are free to grow taller and I think it solves the fresh air issue completely while keeping most contams out.  Bottom water, mist once a day maybe and golden.  They look "happier" with a little more living space too ... haha.


--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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InvisibleKauaiOrca
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Re: Pin straight to grain jar??? Anyone done this? [Re: KauaiOrca]
    #22323300 - 10/02/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Violet - These little clear "hoods" give them a lot more room to spread out once the grow gets past the need to keep everything super clean ... (getting prints or pins) ... And they're getting a lot more air.  Happier too!



--------------------
"The universe is endless, limitless and infinite.  Any effort to define it's boundaries is an attempt to overcome ignorance.  We are physical, mental and spiritual beings ... there is no beginning and there is no end.  There is only memory.  Our repeated loss of memory experiences create the illusion of beginnings and ends.  Immortality is the ability to retain full memory through all consciousness transformations.  Loss of memory is man's greatest curse and, in very real terms, death."

-- Ancient Taoist Master


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