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DivineO
Chillin'



Registered: 08/11/15
Posts: 110
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Diploid]
#22308386 - 09/29/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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This question is dumb imo. Wanna talk about sexist? Look at Catholics. Can the next pope be a woman? LOL right? But you wanna take from that interview that the Dalai Lama maybe a sexist pig?
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Tropism]
#22308446 - 09/29/15 01:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well I can accept that tropism, so long as there is some understanding that it should take a little protracted effort for a philosopher to talk about his or her "opinion" of "substance" (I'll put them both in quotes) because if you do indeed come to it philosophically, it is both the highest priority and what is never outrightly claimed, since it really is something which is held to be implied to things. Substance means something being present.
Should a philosopher need to comment on the media, and social perceptions, I think this could not be a seamless transition. They hung Plato, because he valued a certain priority of dialogue. The most austere and influential philosophers, Aristotle, and Kant, enjoy the greatest testament as criticism for their "metaphysical" removal.
But then, sometimes you just know from the beginning, not as a matter of paeticular knowledge but in how things have been sort of contrived or structured, that they fall apart. That is different. When something just lacks any substantial basis, you don't have to maintain anything, and no one needs to say it in a certain sense. Something speaks for itself, if you can get it clear out in the open.
We stand for a certain standard of dialogue here in a philosophy forum. My "opinion", I clarified, is that I people should be clear, and discuss substantive ideas from the beginning, but I think this should be implied. This amounts to formal points.
For example, if generally a philosophical discussion of ideas was opted for, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What was first an ad hominem does clearly here come to light as quite an insubstantial remark. A philosopher also says that this is just what an ad hominem is, aside from the discussion of ideas. To discuss ethics and character is one thing, and certainly an important part of philosophy, but that is not the same thing as moral tribulation or media scandal.
If we noted from the beginning that the Dalai Lama's comments as Diploid quoted them were questionable, and we nonetheless left people to make their own judgements of ethical character and fill things in themselves, this conversation would have unfolded quite differently. Instead we are following the completely insubstantial idea, and a knee jerk reaction.
Look, the quote Diploid quoted was pared down to get a certain reaction. Compare the difference; (I also bolded a part which seems to have been specifically cut out).
Quote:
In the interview, from the BBC on Monday, the Dalai Lama is asked whether a 15th reincarnation could be a woman, he responds enthusiastically “Yes! … why not?” He continues, asserting that “the female, biologically, more potential to show affection.” “And compassion” Clive Myrie, the interviewer, adds, to the Dalai Lama’s agreement, who continued, “therefore, in today’s troubled world, I think females should take more important roles.” The Dalai Lama then leaned forward and reached out to Myrie’s hand with a little smile, saying, “If a female Dalai Lama come, the face must be very, very, should be very attractive.”
Myrie, laughing, but obviously taken aback, seeks clarification. The Dalai Lama continues, “I mean if a female Dalai Lama come, then that female must be very attractive. Otherwise, not much use.” He continues, “I think some people… my face…” at which point Myrie is more direct in suggesting that the Dalai Lama is joking, but the Dalai Lama says, “I mean, true!” before the edit cuts off the conversation and jumps to the next topic, with Myrie suggesting that the Dalai Lama is seen as a religious rock star.
There however, the Dalai Lama continues with the importance of his looks, saying “and in order to become rock star, if my face [making a contorted face] like that, I think [slapping Myrie playfully across the face] many men would do…” (I’m guessing on the last 4 words, if anyone has heard them better, please let me know) In any case, Myrie laughs and says, “Okay, yes, we’re agreed you’re a very good looking man.”
Here is Diploids original post:
Quote:
The next Dalai Lama could be a woman ... but she'd have to be attractive. . Like, really attractive. . His Holiness made that assertion in an interview with BBC journalist Clive Myrie that was posted online Monday. . About five minutes into an exchange that touched on the Syrian refugee crisis, Myrie asked whether there will be a 15th incarnation of the Dalai Lama, whom Buddhists believe has been reincarnated. . The current Dalai Lama said that's up to the Tibetan people. But when Myrie asked whether the next incarnation could be a woman, His Holiness said yes, but "the face should be very attractive." . Myrie then pressed on the point, asking, "So you can only have a female Dalai Lama if they're attractive. Is that what you're saying?" . To which His Holiness said, "I mean if female Dalai Lama did come, then that female must be very attractive. Otherwise not much use." . Myrie asked if he was joking, but he said, "I meant it, true!"~ Huffington Post
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Quote:
What you make of that? Is the Dalai Lama a sexist pig? 
So Tropism I would not strictly call this an opinion (for instance on the Dalai Lama). I do not think I should need to stand for what I do, as if I were reading much in between the lines, but I do anyways, because that we should be maintaining a philosophical standard, since this is the philosophy forum. It should be implicit.
Elciting media content and reactions is without substance. This intrigue and reaction style of discussion, whether it is considered to be an ad hominem in an ostensible philosophical discussion, or a person or medias entire manner of making points, - this discussion of the Dalai Lama's sexism or pigness - is quite arguably without substance. To be clear, I do not need to stand for anything in that, and if you think otherwise I do not think you have very carefully followed the burden of argument. Otherwise I generally agree with your candor and indeed priority to find something of substantive content.
Hopefully this has been a philosophical discussion...where we look to ourselves, for that, perhaps we do not claim. That is the real interesting thing about philosophy if you ask me. Perhaps what is substantial to philosophy and such an issue, is just being able to "know thyself", as the Oracle of Delphi ostensibly said to Socrates. Not something to blare on the media, I guess. Appreciate the dialogue,
Edited by Kurt (09/29/15 02:25 PM)
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Diploid]
#22308585 - 09/29/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I think you take this interwebs shit way too seriously man. This is a social forum. Yea it says philosophy, but if you really wanted hard-boiled philosophy, you wouldn't be posting on a drug board.
Besides, I'm here to have fun, not to meet anyone's standards for philosophical discussion. I post this way all the time, picking irreverently on people and ideas others hold sacred with equal alacrity. And I've been doing it for a decade before you joined. So you must know that your lectures on how I should post is not going to change anything. Given that, your critique reads of grandstanding in the guise of seeking philosophical meat.
But hey, who am I to judge. My guess is you're here for fun too. If showing off by attacking my style with dense prose gets you off, go to it. I'll reply as long as I'm having fun, eh? 
BTW, like Tropism, I happen to be sick and crancky at the moment. Maybe there's a pattern here, hmmm... 
Well, I can only speak for myself, and I suppose you will too. I like this forum and I think people here are respectable and very much worth talking to. I assume that in coming here. I see the philosophy forum as a good place to get away, for friendly and contemplative dialogue, and I try to hold standards for philosophical, personality aside, Diploid.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22308640 - 09/29/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your response seems directed at me and not the OP, but all I've really done here is goad it out of you. This really is a response to the OP, I just bugged ya enough to get you to spill it. 
It's cool though, the comments were clearly biased to achieve a purpose. That's fine but the Dali's comment still stands and is up to be interpreted in a negative light as much as it can be spun in a positive one. Subjectivity reigns.
>>>So Tropism I would not stricly call this an opinion (for instance on the Dalai Lama). I do not think I should need to stand for what I do, but do anyways, is that we should be maintaining a scrupulous philosophical standard, since this is the philosophy forum.
Enh I think that's a great idea that should sit at the core of the forums ideals at most. In practicality it's a lot more of a looser discussion-based forum than anything truly debate-oriented. Its more fun this way and requires less moderation power, the stricter a sub-forum the heavier the moderation required. Doesn't mean that said part of it could be removed and the structure would still be the same either, but this doesn't seem an appropriate parent site for such strict discussion. Point in case some of us are pretty baked.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Tropism]
#22308814 - 09/29/15 02:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I edited for grammar above, on what you quoted. I am on a phone today.
Quote:
It's cool though, the comments were clearly biased to achieve a purpose. That's fine but the Dali's comment still stands and is up to be interpreted in a negative light as much as it can be spun in a positive one. Subjectivity reigns.
Someone could actually make such an argument, with this point of reference cleared up. I would like to see this, because I do find the man's comments generally interesting.
I don't feel like anything was implicitly wrong in his statement, and I think that such an implied departure needs to be argued and substantiated on a real basis, to distinguish it from whqt seems to be a misrepresentation then being blown out of proportion... So far, all we have is diploid's reaction, based on a somewhat filtered media representation.
There is nothing to say that you aren't just basing your reservation of opinion on this, and in an all inclusive subjective standard, without any point of reference, maybe you can think whatever you want, but there is nothing you can claim about that either.
So to the "drawing board"; so far as it implies a point of reference, I'd say subjectivity implies relationship to a distinct event, and it would be based on the reality of events to the extent we can establish this at the same time as interpretability. Does that seem to be a reasonable basis for a subjective assertion?
Any such interpretation would have to be argued on some such basis to be heard. We have established a point of reference in the fuller context of the interview now; so it begs the question, why do you find the Dalai Lama's actual words offensive?
Edited by Kurt (09/29/15 03:17 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22309143 - 09/29/15 03:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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the quote Diploid quoted was pared down to get a certain reaction.
That's you projecting.
If you bothered to follow the link I provided in the OP, you'll find that my quote is the entire news article from Huffington Post, and copied verbatim with nothing edited, added, removed, or taken out of context. 
If you have beef, it's not with me. It's with the journalist who wrote the story, Jesse Ferreras according to the by-line. Get it right.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22309160 - 09/29/15 03:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Any such interpretation would have to be argued on some such basis to be heard. We have established a point of reference in the fuller context of the interview now; so it begs the question, why do you find the Dalai Lama's actual words offensive?
I never said I did, but I think it's awful funny to call him a sexist pig!  Whatever the specific pigeon-holing of why she must be attractive, it seems humorously out of character for such a culture to tag that on.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Tropism]
#22311137 - 09/29/15 09:42 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Maybe daily meditation practices maintains a person's mojo into old age.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22311601 - 09/29/15 11:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: the quote Diploid quoted was pared down to get a certain reaction.
That's you projecting.
If you bothered to follow the link I provided in the OP, you'll find that my quote is the entire news article from Huffington Post, and copied verbatim with nothing edited, added, removed, or taken out of context. 
If you have beef, it's not with me. It's with the journalist who wrote the story, Jesse Ferreras according to the by-line. Get it right.
Seeing as you're the one making a point to call the Dalai Lama a sexist pig, I'd say I am not the one with beef, or projecting opinions. You even made a Donald Trump analogy. I am projecting opinions? Please.
I am not saying I am beyond it, but I am more inclined to wonder how you posting trashy journalism, and your reaction, has anything to do with me. I just post here Diploid. I was pointing this out as a matter of reference when I said you quoted it. I was just being objective to say the interview was pared down, and parts of it were removed by whoever wrote that. It doesn't necessarily take any projected opinion to see that this is clearly a political narrative, or opinion piece, and I was pointing this out.
By the way, since you are not finding any connection or responsibility to what you posted, should we just assume you are spamming, Diploid? Maybe you should ban yourself, or lock down your own thread or something. That would be a surprising move of authenticity on your part. 
PS... How about making an actual argument, to the original "point"? You presumed something self evident in the article you quoted. I am not really so interested in hashing that out; but there is nothing self evident there. How about making an argument with some logic to it? I'd be interested in hearing one. I am done here, so you can have the last word between us.
Edited by Kurt (09/30/15 01:25 AM)
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22312226 - 09/30/15 02:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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If the next Dalai Lama is a woman they should call her the Dalai Lama-ess. You know, like actress? Something to signify.... you know.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22312619 - 09/30/15 06:42 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Seeing as you're the one making a point to call the Dalai Lama a sexist pig, I'd say
Seeing as how the OP didn't call anyone anything, it just asked a question which his comment clearly elicit, I'd say you have trouble with reading comprehension. The Trump comment came later after you lectured me and stirred the pot.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Diploid]
#22313032 - 09/30/15 09:01 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh I see now. Yeah, I must have missread. You are just asking if the Dalai Lama a sexist pig. I get it, you are not saying he is. You are not making an argument; you are just raising a question...
Well I guess let me know when you have an argument you will stand behind, as opposed to just gossip.
But thanks again for spamming your reactionary opinions and bringing hivemind trash into the forum Diploid. Don't worry, I am just thanking you for what your what your post and personality "elicits" 
Why don't you just head on back to the political forum? Clearly you don't care for woman's issues at all. You're just a reaction, and express yourself going along with whatever issue you can make. On that I am completely serious. You are a disservice to what you speak to.
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Soul-Shine

Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 338
Loc: Within and Without
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22313146 - 09/30/15 09:32 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is also a chance that he told what he did to the BBC reporter for political reasons. A few months ago he said that he may be the final incarnation of the Dalai Lama. He said this under the impression that China may make claim to the "new" Dalai Lama as a type of political tactic. This Chinese Lama would not be the literal incarnation of Chenrezig.
If there is a to be a "new" Dalai Lama, the likelihood of China picking a female as the leader is small. Just a thought.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Kurt]
#22316525 - 09/30/15 09:52 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are not making an argument; you are just raising a question
It's cracking me up that little blips of light on a screen can so rile you that you started by criticizing me for "poor philosophical standards" and a few posts later you wind up writing entire posts of nothing but irrelevant personal (read: ad hominem) observations of me, my state of mind, and my intentions when I wrote the OP.
Carry on. I'm sick and this is better than anything my doctor could recommend.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dalai Lama [Re: Diploid]
#22316566 - 09/30/15 10:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Alas, I merely observe.
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