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InvisibleKurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
Re: God Weeps [Re: falcon]
    #22301016 - 09/27/15 11:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

falcon said:
This was originally posted in the Pub, PSP is the new dumping ground. :cheers:

Oy, well bite me, this was in the Political forum originally, WTF.




Oh cheers!


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InvisibleTropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
Re: God Weeps [Re: Diploid]
    #22301951 - 09/28/15 09:40 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
So what's your point? I also get the impression you think the concept of the Spaghetti Monster is arbitrary, but its not.

people who don't see this are ignorant and can often be very arrogant.

Translation: "If you don't see things my way, you are a pompous ignoramus."

Holy shit, and you call ME arrogant. That's rich man. I love the irony.

Quote:

Dip said: I'll wager you can't make an argument against that without resorting to "it's true because I say so" or some variation of that schoolyard retort.



Ahahahaaaaa! QED  :dumblol:





:lol:

Thank you, Diploid. I know it can be frustrating trying to educate non-believers, but if everyone else could open their minds just a little bit to others' beliefs and religions then they would clearly see that His Noodliness is the one true creator.
Ignorance and arrogance blinds the world, if only they could see the glory before them.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 3 hours, 58 minutes
Re: God Weeps [Re: soldatheero]
    #22302055 - 09/28/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

So if I smashed by brain with a sledgehammer, it will have no affect on my consciousness?




No, what I said does not imply this. What a simple minded conclusion. Consider the possibility that the brain is an instrument of consciousness and they are intertwined and correlated.




You seem to be implying that the brain and consciousness are two separate entities, there's no evidence for that claim.


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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
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Re: God Weeps [Re: qman]
    #22302243 - 09/28/15 10:56 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Well could you explain to me how it is that the brain creates consciousness?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
Re: God Weeps [Re: soldatheero]
    #22302329 - 09/28/15 11:18 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Just because he doesn't have the specifics doesn't mean you do. Consciousness is an activity, not a thing. Explain to us how consciousness and the brain work together...

OT- Down with the pope!


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineHippocampus
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Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: God Weeps [Re: soldatheero]
    #22302349 - 09/28/15 11:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Well could you explain to me how it is that the brain creates consciousness?




Well, there are these cells that react to the environment.  Actually in the brain they are very specialized sensing and processing cells called neurons that are interconnected.  Long story short, there are about 100 billion of these neurons in the brain, so the interplay between them is super duper complex giving rise to to what folks like to call human consciousness. 

Does that clear it up for you?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: God Weeps [Re: Hippocampus] * 1
    #22302416 - 09/28/15 11:39 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That is not an explanation.  There is no defined relationship, you are merely asserting.  I'm not going to come down on either side, however, because the truth is no one understands consciousness.  We all have our opinions, and that is all they are.  There is not yet any scientific explanation one way or another, period.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
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Re: God Weeps [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22302532 - 09/28/15 12:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Show me an object without a brain that has consciousness.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: God Weeps [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22302572 - 09/28/15 12:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That is not an explanation.  There is no defined relationship, you are merely asserting.  I'm not going to come down on either side, however, because the truth is no one understands consciousness.  We all have our opinions, and that is all they are.  There is not yet any scientific explanation one way or another, period.




"There is no defined relationship"

If I cut my eyes out of my head, will my consciousness experience sight? 

Can I alter my consciousness with physical compounds?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: God Weeps [Re: qman] * 1
    #22302596 - 09/28/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

You completely misunderstand me.  Hippocampus said that the complexity of the brain's hundred billion neurons gives rise to consciousness.

That is emphatically not an explanation, it's nothing.  It's just an assertion that cannot be verified. 

That's all I meant.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: God Weeps [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22302599 - 09/28/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Show me an object without a brain that has consciousness.




Show me a statement I made that suggests that.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,866
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: God Weeps [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22302614 - 09/28/15 12:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Show me an object without a brain that has consciousness.




define consciousness, then explain to me how one measures it.

plants communicate.  Does communication imply consciousness?


--------------------


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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Registered: 03/09/07
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Re: God Weeps [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22303028 - 09/28/15 01:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Well, there are these cells that react to the environment.  Actually in the brain they are very specialized sensing and processing cells called neurons that are interconnected.  Long story short, there are about 100 billion of these neurons in the brain, so the interplay between them is super duper complex giving rise to to what folks like to call human consciousness. 

Does that clear it up for you?




Exactly what Quantum said. What is desired is an actual explanation of how it is done, you know like how an engineer can explain how a combustion engine drives a car. All you are giving is a reaffirming that your dogma is indeed true and not an actual explanation. Not very skeptical or scientific thinking. A real scientific mind should be critical of everything and not just assume things to be true.

Quote:

Show me an object without a brain that has consciousness.




Plants have a form of experience and consciousness and yet no brain or nervous system. There are other organisms with no brain that exhibit memory and some form of intelligence.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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OfflineMachineElf1.618
4-PO-Dimethyltryptamine
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Registered: 06/27/11
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Re: God Weeps [Re: soldatheero]
    #22305947 - 09/28/15 11:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:

Quote:

Show me an object without a brain that has consciousness.




Plants have a form of experience and consciousness and yet no brain or nervous system. There are other organisms with no brain that exhibit memory and some form of intelligence.




I second this but I wouldn't say plant's have consciousness though.

I think the main point should be that the bible and "gods" teachings are BS and science can prove this!


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,866
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: God Weeps [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #22306005 - 09/28/15 11:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The good book is good, and its a book.  but its certainly not the only book worth reading.



--------------------


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Offlinesoldatheero
lastirishman
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Re: God Weeps [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22306043 - 09/29/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I second this but I wouldn't say plant's have consciousness though.




They have experience, it is experience that IMO cannot be explained by physical material causes - IT simply cannot fit into the the materialist paradigm of reality and that is why that paradigm is destined to replaced by a better consensual theory of reality. Plants do not have consciousness of consciousness or self awareness but there is a stream of experience occurring there.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.


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OfflineHippocampus
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Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: God Weeps [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #22306063 - 09/29/15 12:23 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That is not an explanation.  There is no defined relationship, you are merely asserting.  I'm not going to come down on either side, however, because the truth is no one understands consciousness.  We all have our opinions, and that is all they are.  There is not yet any scientific explanation one way or another, period.




well maybe you should define consciousness.  Personally I think it's a folly of a philosophical pursuit akin to the search for human "vitality" a century ago.  Consciousness, the philosophical meaning, isn't required to understand the brain.  It sounds to me like people who would suggest a duality of consciousness vs brain are the ones asserting things and holding onto dogma.  The debate is pointless to me.  Meaningless as if you said "God loves you".  Anyone trying to assert that consciousness doesn't come solely from the brain are the ones trying to pile on extra new assertions, and thus should be the ones to provide evidence for their extra, above the norm, beliefs.  Otherwise, I see no need to change from the default position, the one with all the evidence, that what philosophers and mystics call "consciousness" arises solely from the physical brain.


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OfflineMachineElf1.618
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Re: God Weeps [Re: soldatheero]
    #22306140 - 09/29/15 12:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
They have experience, it is experience that IMO cannot be explained by physical material causes - IT simply cannot fit into the the materialist paradigm of reality and that is why that paradigm is destined to replaced by a better consensual theory of reality. Plants do not have consciousness of consciousness or self awareness but there is a stream of experience occurring there.




Yeh thats the jist of it. To be scientific though cuz I'm such a fucking nerd plants are completely chemical. Plants can't see, or feel pain, or emotion like animals. IF we see something or we have some sort of stimulus, first it must be processed in the brain and then the action is carried out after it has been decided. Plants are cause and effect, when they receive a stimulus it usually leads to one and always the same response. It does not have a brain that is conscious of what is happening and it can't make decisions.

For example if you touch a carnivorous plant, the pressure receptors tell it to close. If you hang a plant upside down it will curl back up because of gravity receptors, if you move a plant away from light it will grow towards the light source because of photo-receptors. Therefore it's not really because of "experiences." Their actions are already predetermined and is based on the stimulus they receive. They don't have self awareness but plants do have a sense of "self" if that makes sense?

Think of our immune system. Our immune cells don't have brains obviously and aren't conscious. But through chemical processes which I won't go into, they know what self is and can tell what cells in your body are part of you. If they didn't have this sense of self they would be attacking your own body's cells and not just pathogens or foreign objects. This is actually how many autoimmune diseases occur.


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OfflineMachineElf1.618
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Re: God Weeps [Re: Hippocampus]
    #22306189 - 09/29/15 01:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That is not an explanation.  There is no defined relationship, you are merely asserting.  I'm not going to come down on either side, however, because the truth is no one understands consciousness.  We all have our opinions, and that is all they are.  There is not yet any scientific explanation one way or another, period.




well maybe you should define consciousness.  Personally I think it's a folly of a philosophical pursuit akin to the search for human "vitality" a century ago.  Consciousness, the philosophical meaning, isn't required to understand the brain.  It sounds to me like people who would suggest a duality of consciousness vs brain are the ones asserting things and holding onto dogma.  The debate is pointless to me.  Meaningless as if you said "God loves you".  Anyone trying to assert that consciousness doesn't come solely from the brain are the ones trying to pile on extra new assertions, and thus should be the ones to provide evidence for their extra, above the norm, beliefs.  Otherwise, I see no need to change from the default position, the one with all the evidence, that what philosophers and mystics call "consciousness" arises solely from the physical brain.




I don't understand what the confusion is. The definition of consciousness is pretty straight forward, it's not like its some abstract idea.

Since philosophers aren't neuroscientists they don't realize that consciousness is a direct product of their brain. But they use that conscious brain to ponder and ask questions about consciousness and what it means to be conscious. Uhh now that's unnecessarily confusing!


Edited by MachineElf1.618 (09/29/15 01:42 AM)


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OfflineHippocampus
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Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: God Weeps [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #22306198 - 09/29/15 01:14 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

oh, you would be surprised what people will try to say is consciousness.  There are whole fucking books on it.  It's stupid.


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