|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer
#22292190 - 09/26/15 08:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
If you were to add a non nutritive agar layer on top of a colonising regular plate could it induce pinning better? anybody tried it?
You can inject/pour warm agar on top of agar without killing it. This is usually to clean up a plate, the myc grows up through the new layer and you transfer off the new emerging growth.
I was thinking if the new layer had no nutrients it could be similar in a way to a casing layer. It is observed that pinning can occur at regions of low nutrients. People find pinning in petris often occurs after it is full colonised. Perhaps this is since it has used up most of the nutrients at that point and so induces pinning on the now low nutrient agar. If you had a thick nutrient agar, with a thin layer of non nutritive agar you might not have to have it fully colonise, and pins could well be bigger and/or more likely as they could be feeding off the thick nutrient layer below.
It could also inhibit any bacteria on the lower layer from growing through, and since the to layer is low in nutrients it would inhibit growth of any new contaminants landing on top.
If pouring/injecting hot agar you could chill the plate in advance to minimise any heat damage.
|
taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
Loc: Journal Land
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22292195 - 09/26/15 08:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
|
spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



Registered: 08/15/11
Posts: 25,674
Last seen: 9 minutes, 15 seconds
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22292198 - 09/26/15 08:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
That sounds so awesome. The next time I get a chance I will try it
-------------------- ERROR 418 IM A TEAPOT.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011 Ban lotto
|
Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: spirit_shadow]
#22292273 - 09/26/15 08:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
interesting idea..
Grass seed petri's will pin fyi
|
bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent



Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Psilosopherr]
#22292387 - 09/26/15 09:14 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Hi nutrition dishes pin best for me 
Then again I think the low nutrition hypothesis is stupid. It's the scaffolding They pin great on of cakes even without the verm roll, extra mycelial mass at surface is my idea on why casings work. Casings increase mycelial architecture, the could give two fucks about nutrition. Haven't you seen them pin well on almost everything
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: bodhisatta]
#22297048 - 09/27/15 05:04 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Hi nutrition dishes pin best for me 
Pasty was saying the same. But I am wondering if it can be improved upon. People are not getting good pinning on low nutrient agar but that is not what I am suggesting to solely grow on.
In a Sandoz patent from the 1950's they found weaker agar better for fruit bodies.
Quote:
In developing an alternative process which is better adapted for large scale operation, it was found quite unexpectedly that, grown in vitro on substrates rich in nutritive material, the fungi produce active mycelium and sclerotes in large quantities and only a very small number of fruit bodies, on substrates poor in nutrients, however, the familiar fruit bodies are produced. On an agar medium containing 1.5% by weight of agar, a concentration of 0.2 to 0.7% by weight of dry substance of malt ex- A tract is the optimum for the formation of fruit bodies,
whereas concentrations of 4 to 10% by weight, depending upon the particular fungal species employed, are optimal for the formation of mycelium and sclerotes.
I have seen RR, Stephen L Peele and many others saying higher is better to promote pinning. RR also mentioned adding gypsum to the agar.
The patent does not mention how much agar was used though. I am wondering if a large amount of agar was used -in which case it would have a high nutrient source to feed from, but would be locally low. And if using a lot of high nutrient agar then it would not be the same as a thin layer, where I was saying/speculating that once colonised there will be little nutrients left and so it is in effect now a low/lower nutrient agar.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Haven't you seen them pin well on almost everything
In small jars I have noticed they often pin at points away from the main nutrient source. I have read it theorized that it has stretched out, is low in nutrition and so fruits as a survival mechanism. And the pins can grow on minimal myc mass/structure.
I had myc run up the sides of this jar with minimal grains at the bottom. I have seen similar ones.

Here is an old one with pins in the outer perimeter, and a fairly thick & rich agar in the centre.


I also see plenty of photos of plates pinning in the middle too, a lot of these plates appear to be thin on agar, and as people usually grow from the centre outwards the middle is possibly the lower nutrient dense area.
|
micro
bunbun has a gungun



Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 7,532
Loc: Brick City
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22297066 - 09/27/15 05:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
blackout said: I was thinking if the new layer had no nutrients it could be similar in a way to a casing layer. It is observed that pinning can occur at regions of low nutrients.
The only thing a casing layer really does is protection and keeping moisture in.
There have been patents however (morels for example) that state this is the case.
You wouldnt need to *add* more stuff though; the mycelium will use up everything.
Still, not the same kind of fungi so who knows.
Out of curiosity why do you want to fruit it on agar?
I mean, it looks pretty neat but isn't the most practical approach.
-------------------- Any research paper or book for free (Avatar is Maxxy, a character by Mizzyam, RIP)
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: micro]
#22297130 - 09/27/15 06:22 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
micro said: The only thing a casing layer really does is protection and keeping moisture in.
And creates a microclimate, I was thinking of not mentioning casing at all as I predicted people would jump all over it, why I said "similar in a way" meaning in some ways, i.e. low nutritional value and a moisture source.
Quote:
micro said: Out of curiosity why do you want to fruit it on agar?
To select a pin to clone and grow properly/normally. I have a container with 15 mini plates in it all growing. My plan was to hopefully get a few that pin and pick the best. If I could induce pinning on all of them I will have a better selection to pick from. I also wanted to get a strain that fruits in lower temperatures, in which case I am looking to greatly increase the chances of pinning happening, as it's probably far less likely under normal conditions.
|
Grey
⇜ ✯ ⇝



Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 6,223
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22297296 - 09/27/15 08:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Grey]
#22297442 - 09/27/15 08:56 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I've been getting lots of agar pins on gypsum + undiluted grainwater agar, as you say, usually after full or nearly full colonization. My plates are usually very wide.
Wouldn't any agar surface, regardless of its nutritional value, deplete of nutrients rapidly anyway? I've never seen what I interpreted to be the mycellium digging in, but I don't know.
Isn't the Violet scrubby tek basically doing exactly what you're talking about here in a different way.
I'm very curious to see your results if you do it blackout. Your methods make my brain tingle in a good way.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
|
Violet



Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 4,205
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Machiavelliavore]
#22300033 - 09/27/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Nice idea. I'd like to try it sometime... If it works out, it could be an interesting sidechain to my culture tech.
Watch out though - Bodhisatta might come in any minute and say the low-nutrition site pinning is "bullshit". You and I might be forced to whip out our individual collections of evidence for it.
-------------------- Intentionally or not, here in mushcult we are purveyors of love culture and enlightenment movement. Let's try to act like it! PODS TEK - Growing Invitro with BRF/verm or Grass Seed containers The simplest, quickest, safest tek! For beginners, culturers, lazy people, stealth lovers, contam haters, and alternative seekers! • Violet's Teks and Posts •
|
cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Violet]
#22300181 - 09/27/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I'd just case the plate myself
--------------------
  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
|
Grey
⇜ ✯ ⇝



Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 6,223
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: cronicr]
#22300213 - 09/27/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It does work from time to time.
--------------------
AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: cronicr] 1
#22303169 - 09/28/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Wouldn't any agar surface, regardless of its nutritional value, deplete of nutrients rapidly anyway?
I would still wonder if it can make use of it from deep down. I have seen very thin threads of myc on glass able to support substantial mushrooms through a very thin network of myc.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said:Isn't the Violet scrubby tek basically doing exactly what you're talking about here in a different way.
Yes in a way, though she is using it for proper harvesting, that is not what I am really looking for. I wanted to be able to have a large amount of strains on the grow in a small area and looking for fruits under sub optimal conditions -in particular looking for a cold fruiting strain. I am working with spores which were not taken in particularly clean conditions. I think the 2D nature of regular agar allows easier visual inspection of growth for contaminants compared to the pads. Also many have found difficulty in finding scrubbers which allowed growth. I have scrubbers and will certainly give them a go again, I also have stainless steel scrubbing pads I mentioned before which I reckon could work.
I fully supported the idea of Violets tek and was to say I was disappointed with the negative reactions it got is a huge understatement.
Quote:
cronicr said: I'd just case the plate myself:)
I was thinking of casing with verm but was looking for a possible easier way, without even the need for a SAB, with minimal risk. I am also thinking of easily doing a large amount of plates.
Some might have seen my pictures of the silicone & PP5 ice cube trays in the "new tools" thread. I have since made it.

  
 There are 15 mini "petris" in that container. It was all done in a microwave. Growth can be seen in the last picture. The first photos are when it was out of the microwave and still full of condensation. 2/15 appeared suspect, so I injected hot salt water directly on top of them, as much salt as would dissolve in boiling water, in fact more salt as the syringe had undissolved salt in it. You can see I have SHIPs above all of the "dishes".
I know this may allow easier transfer of contams, if contaminant spores did get released in the same container. I just liked the idea of a compact unit for growth.
Those SHIPs are directly above each ice cube tray, perspective makes it look otherwise.
Edited by blackout (09/28/15 02:36 PM)
|
taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
Loc: Journal Land
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22304097 - 09/28/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Wait, so you're gonna keep THIS thread updated right?
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
|
Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22304800 - 09/28/15 07:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah I didn't mean to say "hey dude scrubbies is the same thing, why did you bother to post this?"
More that in a way you have some proof of concept there, at least assuming it will colonize the new layer, which I think it probably will. Got some oyster mycellium growing up the walls of my agar containers just to get drops of condensation.
Cold fruiting from dirty spores. Are you experimenting with this for a specific project? I'd be curious to know what it is.
--------------------
I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Machiavelliavore]
#22314046 - 09/30/15 01:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
taGyo said: Wait, so you're gonna keep THIS thread updated right?
Yes, good or bad I will update it.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Yeah I didn't mean to say "hey dude scrubbies is the same thing, why did you bother to post this?"
I didn't take it like that, no worries.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: at least assuming it will colonize the new layer, which I think it probably will.
I think it should I have read of "hot pours" before, though they had nutrients.
Quote:
Machiavelliavore said: Are you experimenting with this for a specific project? I'd be curious to know what it is.
I just want to grow without having to have additional heat, I prefer my room to be colder than most people. I am also interested in having mulitple plates in the same environment. That container was off some chocolates which costed just €1.49, and the ice cube tray was the same price, so a pretty cheap method to have 15 dishes on the go. And all done in a microwave.
It might suit people working with more questionable prints, like from trades or the free spore ring. I also thought that if a pin does grow to full maturity and drop spores then its likely some will fall on the clear plastic sections with no nutrients around them. So you could make a pretty clean syringe from it in a SAB. If you grow invitro and fruit the spores are usually landing on some nutrients, and it takes minimal amounts of nutrients for germination in a syringe.
I am not sure if I will try the agar layer on this test. It would better to test it out with a isolated strain. Maybe inject 1 line of 5 with non nutrient agar, another line with nutrient agar, and leave the other line alone.
|
Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 18 hours, 1 minute
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#22314344 - 09/30/15 02:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
What's your goal exactly? Trying to get more agar pins? Earlier pins? Larger pins?
--------------------
|
blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: Kizzle]
#22314627 - 09/30/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kizzle said: What's your goal exactly? Trying to get more agar pins? Earlier pins? Larger pins?
mainly to increase the likelihood of pinning at all, as I do not expect much luck when trying to get pins in colder environments.
|
Sold Out Online
Stranger Danger



Registered: 09/05/20
Posts: 264
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: Non nutritive agar layer on top of nutrient agar to induce pins, like a casing layer [Re: blackout]
#27108672 - 12/26/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
No update
--------------------
Threads that have been useful to me: Clean Spawn checklist for new growers
|
|