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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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A Fruiting "Horomone"
    #2229179 - 01/08/04 07:58 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I've noticed something enough times in my experimentation to wonder if their is some reason for it's happening. When (cakes, casings, logs, I've noticed it from all) are placed into a fruiting environment where fruits are already being produced off of other cakes/casings/logs, the period of time before fruiting begins seems to be much quicker.

If anyone else out there is constantly harvesting / disposing of trays and moving new ones in, or has a PF - Tek setup where they start fruiting as the jars get colonized, tell me if you've ever noticed it. It seems that once the mushrooms start to grow, they produce a "signal" (perhaps a hormone released), other mycelia placed in the same environment want to pin quicker.

Perhaps the strain of bacteria mentioned in TMC's chapter on initiating pinning is the cause for this. If that bacteria is crucial for pinning to take place, it could be at it's "peak production" on a cake/casing that was fruiting, and it could cross-"contaminate" another cake/casing, causing it to fruit earlier as well.


Any thoughts? Thx


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2229317 - 01/08/04 08:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

ive read in TMC that when you spray gourmet mushie cakes with blended pins it induces pinning and a greater amount of pins i believe, but i dont recall a bacteria mentioned... i wouldnt have a hard time believing that the hormones from nearby cakes cause other cakes to fruit, i mean even the mycellium from the same cake has to communicate somehow, and why shouldnt they understand each others native language.

has anyone ever tried spraying their casings with pin/knot/mushy juice? do you think this would increase amount of pins or better yet, yeild?


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: amyloid]
    #2229983 - 01/09/04 01:18 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I read about this in TMC too. I was really curious. And a little bit of looking. If you look in the back of TMC you'll find the source for the study you quote.

Shiio, T. Okunishi, M., and Okumura, S. 1974. "Fundamental Studies on the Large Scale Cultivation of Edible Fungi". Mushroom Science IX (Part I). Proc. of the 9th Int. Cong. Cult.of Edible Fungi, Tokyo.

I looked for it on the net but never found it. I never went to a "REAL" library, but generally I can find more information on the net than at the library.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2230545 - 01/09/04 09:38 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I have fruited many casings at various levels of colonisation. I have rarely noticed any syncronisation in fruiting. Any syncronisation can be easily credited to my timing of the introduction of casings to a fruiting environment rather than to any internal mechanism.

I have contemplated the effect of moon phases in encouraging fruiting, but no science has been carried out to support this theory that I know of.

Joshua


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2230576 - 01/09/04 09:58 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

There is a fruiting hormone. It's soluble in distilled water and insoluble in anhydrous alcohols, so, in theory, one could extract out all the alkaloids and still be left with the hormone and then use it -- the problem, though, is it would have to be extracted from young pins.

--
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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: micro]
    #2230581 - 01/09/04 10:02 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What is the name for this hormone and how volatile is it in air?

Joshua


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: Joshua]
    #2230600 - 01/09/04 10:19 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think it's just called "pinning hormone" or something -- that's all I've heard it called, before. I don't know anything about it except that -- all that I read said they extracted it with various solvents and it produced results.

I can't imagine that the structure isn't known, though, because it's probably a simple molecule. It would be neat to find out, because it might be able to be synthesized.

--
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Offlineamyloid
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: micro]
    #2230735 - 01/09/04 11:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

ive also read that the hormone from differnt species still initiates pinning on a cake from a differnt species. i wonder if it is universal to all mushrooms.


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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Invisible@cro
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: Joshua]
    #2230985 - 01/09/04 02:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

:I've never seen any documentation for it but I think I remember someone posting that they thought it was cAMP.

i'll see if I can find the link.
fruiting hormone
I wouldn't waste the pins though PC will readily fruit without them.  :tongue:
Peace - @cro


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Edited by @cro (01/09/04 02:07 PM)


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: @cro]
    #2231089 - 01/09/04 02:51 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Memory serves.

I know...just seeing if time has changed anything.

I wonder if anyone has used the hormone alone. As I read the experiment involved a solution of pins, I didn't read anything about how they decided it was the cAMP that was responsible.

Joshua


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Invisiblemicro
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: Joshua]
    #2231200 - 01/09/04 03:29 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

If I can get my hands on some cAMP (there might be some around here....) I might try some experiments.  Something for me to think about :wink:

--
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Offlineamyloid
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: micro]
    #2231448 - 01/09/04 04:59 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Something for me to think about


and post the results of!


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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InvisibleYidakiMan
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: YidakiMan]
    #2231481 - 01/09/04 05:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I believe that all this has already been proven. Someone needs to find the reference I posted above.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: YidakiMan]
    #2232268 - 01/09/04 10:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I definatly agree that it is somewhat useless to find a way to have p. cubensis pin faster or easier.  When you do the proper temperature cycling (cold shock) and a good even casing layer (which I believe is accomplished by deep scratching), the right combination of air exchange, temperature, lighting, humidity/relative humidity and hygenic practise by the cultivator, you will have a good even pinset in a week to ten days.  Just wondering if this "pin juice" could be used inter-species, that if some amount of p. cubensis could be used to make the "pin juice" and spray psi. cyanescens to initiate better pinning. 
[afterthought; would it work on p. azurescen as well?]

Perhaps some experimentation is in order.

I know that in TMC it talks about the presence of a specific bacteria as being noticed as being beneficial to the production of pinheads.  I'll check when I'm at home in the book and see what it says, unless someone else could have their TMC handy and check up on it.  I think it's in the chapter "Strategy for Initiation of Pinheads" or something, but I'm sure that I saw it.  I believe that they fall into the classification of bacteria known as "acetomycetes", which might show their compatiblity with mycelia.  Maybe I'm just stoned and thinking too much. :smile:


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Offlineamyloid
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2232284 - 01/09/04 11:10 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

but who knows, maybe the pin juice would make cubes pump out more yeild on the first flush. its worth a look see, i mean it was less then 20 years ago the ppl realized sensimilla = 4x+ the thc maybe there is something that could increase psilocybe in a comparable manner, we would never know unless we tried.


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
-Al Einstein


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2232316 - 01/09/04 11:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The experiment mentioned did use a different species of pins to make the pin solution than the casing in which the pinning was excellerated...I hope that makes sense (TMC, p.357-358).

The bacterial species you are thinking of is actinomyces (an actinomycetes ), this bacteria is actually more important in composting than in pinning (TMC, p.246-247). The species shown to aid in primordia formation include Psuedomonas putida , Bacillus megaterium , Arthrobacter terregens , Rhizobium meliloti , and the alga Scenedesmus quadracauda . Even activated charcoal helps (TMC, p. 353-356.)

Joshua


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OfflineTeon
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: Joshua]
    #2232511 - 01/10/04 01:36 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

cAMP is cyclic adenosine monophosphate (sp). If that sound at all familiar (and it should) that's because we humans derive our energy from ATP, adenosine triphosphate.

The best source of cAMP, primordia. Culture mycelium on agar and just as it begind to fruit take all the primordia and pics, homogenize in sterlie water, and lightly mist your casings. I should not that while I have read several enteries on this method being used in commercial mushroom farms, I have never seen any data regarding the effectiveness of this on P.c.

But, think of the possibilities, Not only do you get more abundant flushes, but you can trigger the tray into flushing as soon as it is colonized. No waiting for the culture to decide that it's time to fruit, you tell it that it's time. I realize that this can be done through environemntal controls as well, but most home growers lack full control over the climate in the growing room.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: A Fruiting "Horomone" [Re: Teon]
    #2232565 - 01/10/04 02:01 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Memory serves.

cAMP is a signaling molecule in both glycogen synthesis (inhibits) and glycogenolysis (upregulates). Glycogenolysis then leads eventually to the production of your ATP. I believe it is this mobilisation of energy which allows the fungi to form hyphael knots and eventually fruit bodies.

Joshua


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Great books for inquiring minds!

"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"


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