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Offlinefuzzysig
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overpopulation true or false?
    #22291552 - 09/26/15 01:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

what you all think id like to know what are the arguments for and against.

my view is. we are not there yet but dangerously close.

there are scientists arguing that we have no problem with resources that theres no shortage. based on very old research and statistics that was done 50-80 years ago.

than theres also analogy to a house.
you got a house where 5 people live. they live off the land provided
but the argument of critics is that at maximum capacity of 20 people they can still live in that house and live off the land be self sufficient.

problem with that. can you call it living when the 5 people live comfortably and 20 people barely sirvive.

so In my opinion. theres either a reason behind those critics statements about the maximum capacity that earth can handle or they don't understand it fully or simply don't care about it.


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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22291582 - 09/26/15 01:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Way too many. Too crowded.

Plenty of mucous, not enough oxygen.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: Arctic W. Fox]
    #22291603 - 09/26/15 02:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

False.  there are ways to reduce scarcity and reduce the negative impact of human population growth.  We can increase food reliability for most of the world and reduce atmospheric carbon at the same time, as just one example.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22114652


--------------------


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #22291967 - 09/26/15 06:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

True but don't worry, the elite are working on it.  The goal is 500 million, so that means a lot of you useless eaters have got to go.


--------------------
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig] * 2
    #22292368 - 09/26/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

This is a non sequitir argument.  Just because we can take care of everybody in principle, does not mean that it's not too many.  And we're not even coming close to taking care of everyone.  There are 2.5 billion people in this world below the poverty line.  What is this nonsense about taking care of everyone?!?!

Seven billion is way too many.  Two billion is way too many.  But, shit, what is one going to do about it.  Here they are.  We'd better figure out how to take care of everyone.

But the planet is bursting.  Habitats for species other than humans are all but gone.  I can't see how anyone could possibly argue that the planet is not overpopulated.  It is an irresponsible and indefensible position.


--------------------
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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22292876 - 09/26/15 10:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Good post, sir.

Here is my 2 cents.


A few short years ago I realized that there were 50,000 more people in the world, each day. . . That number was staggering to me. . . not a year - a day.


Two or two and a half years ago, I learned that the rate had increased to 200,000 more people in the world each day - this is overall growth - after births & deaths etc.


What was surprising to me was how recently it had only been 50,000. . . Anyway - no, there is no sensible stance - as DQ expressed - to say we are not overpopulated.


We've cut down approximately 50% of the natural forests globally, and we are losing between 25-50 species a day.


Now, none of what I'm saying is meant to cause sadness - Sadness was never of any use to anybody, to quote the poet.  Just to raise awareness ----


And raising awareness also is worlds & worlds away from trying to control anyone. . . My only goal is really just to share friendship & peace with people - because those are the bonds which make a lasting peace possible. . .


And it's not really - not really a question of how big the problem is - I mean, it's a macrocosm or a microcosm - peace work is still peace work - and so forth -



Peace still creates peace - etc. always the same.



Here is a good site about it:


http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/


I appreciated especially because they had come to several conclusions that my family had as well; and so forth.


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OfflineCuriousMind

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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: once in a lifetime]
    #22293912 - 09/26/15 02:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

And yet people still worry about countries which aren't "reproducing enough". For fuck's sake, at some point we need to stop before its all gone.

We humans have a disturbing ability to ignore or put aside really serious shit and just continue being selfish. I won't pretend to be some saint or anything, but at the very least I recognize and acknowledge that we have a serious problem on our hands and bringing more and more kids into the world isn't the solution.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: CuriousMind]
    #22297112 - 09/27/15 06:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CuriousMind said:
And yet people still worry about countries which aren't "reproducing enough". For fuck's sake, at some point we need to stop before its all gone.

We humans have a disturbing ability to ignore or put aside really serious shit and just continue being selfish. I won't pretend to be some saint or anything, but at the very least I recognize and acknowledge that we have a serious problem on our hands and bringing more and more kids into the world isn't the solution.




Who will take care of the millenials when there's nobody left capable of working after being educated in the Common Core program?  What's truly serious is we have a bunch of brainwashed techies who have their head stuck not only up their collective asses but you can't get them off their cell phones.  You can't!  They are fucking cell phone junkies, texting as they drive, and one almost killed me the other day. 

Fuck you cell phone junkies you are dangerous and I hope some of you get run over while texting and walking across the road.  That would help with not only with overpopulation, but clear out some really stupid people from the equation.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #22297325 - 09/27/15 08:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Who will take care of the millenials when there's nobody left capable of working after being educated in the Common Core program?  What's truly serious is we have a bunch of brainwashed techies who have their head stuck not only up their collective asses but you can't get them off their cell phones.  You can't!  They are fucking cell phone junkies, texting as they drive, and one almost killed me the other day. 

Fuck you cell phone junkies you are dangerous and I hope some of you get run over while texting and walking across the road.  That would help with not only with overpopulation, but clear out some really stupid people from the equation.




"Sent via carrier pigeon."


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig] * 1
    #22301071 - 09/28/15 12:17 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I owned a poster copy of John Pitre's 1973 piece entitled 'Overpopulation.' I wish it was a larger image, but your post reminded me of the surrealism and impossibility of so many humans in the absence of sustaining environment with foodstuffs.




--------------------
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OfflineGiftofdeprivation
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22301207 - 09/28/15 01:47 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
False.  there are ways to reduce scarcity and reduce the negative impact of human population growth.  We can increase food reliability for most of the world and reduce atmospheric carbon at the same time, as just one example.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22114652



This, but because no one is adopting those strategies, TRUE. We've adopted a rate of growth beyond our ability to mitigate our impact. By that definition, we are overpopulating earth. Species are dying, forests thinning, and climate is becoming increasingly unsustainable.


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OfflineRennHuhn
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22302579 - 09/28/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

We dont have over population problem we have a distribution problem.
With rising quality of live come lower birth rates. The solutions are their they just need to be implemented.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: RennHuhn]
    #22302629 - 09/28/15 12:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tilford cites a litany of sobering statistics showing just how profligate Americans have been in using and abusing natural resources. For example, between 1900 and 1989 U.S. population tripled while its use of raw materials grew by a factor of 17.  “With less than 5 percent of world population, the U.S. uses one-third of the world’s paper, a quarter of the world’s oil, 23 percent of the coal, 27 percent of the aluminum, and 19 percent of the copper,” he reports. “Our per capita use of energy, metals, minerals, forest products, fish, grains, meat, and even fresh water dwarfs that of people living in the developing world.”

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/american-consumption-habits/





What this means is that no, we cannot raise the standard of living for everybody.  If we raised all 7.5 billion of us to the US standard of living and consumption rates, we would need four more Earths just to harvest the resources with present technology.
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2012-10/daily-infographic-if-everyone-lived-american-how-many-earths-would-we-need

IT'S TOO MANY!!!


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22302791 - 09/28/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/
Quote:

Moving out from LEO, Mr. March, from NASA EagleWorks, noted that a spacecraft equipped with EM drive technology could surpass the performance expectations of the WarpStar-I concept vehicle.

If such a similar vehicle were equipped with an EM Drive, it could enable travel from the surface of Earth to the surface of the moon within four hours.




aside from food constraints imposed by maximum total surface area, many resource needs may functionally disappear in the near future with the advent of the EM Drive.


--------------------


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22304465 - 09/28/15 06:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think we can rule out space travel to distant earth like planets.

or it would be a multi generation span one way trip...

wich would mean the rest would still be here left with a fucked up wasted planet.

the fact that we are living large now is definitely not free. its on our tab and some time in the future someone gonna have to cover that tab.which would most likely be our kids.

we spend so much time trying to raise our kids while completely fucking up our planet leaving it to them.

I belive we are way over our capacity after reading this experiment and how rats reacted to overpopulation.
there was also experiment with squirrels. and probably other species. from whati can remember they all reacted inexact same way when population exceeded given space. while resources were abundant.
it seems that personal space is more important than resources..


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink


http://www.returnofkings.com/36915/what-humans-can-learn-from-the-mice-utopia-experiment


Edited by fuzzysig (09/28/15 06:43 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22304635 - 09/28/15 07:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

theres lots of space left. just not inside of cities.  As for the EMDrive, i was referring more to mining asteroids than colonizing distant worlds


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: Giftofdeprivation]
    #22304677 - 09/28/15 07:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Giftofdeprivation said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
False.  there are ways to reduce scarcity and reduce the negative impact of human population growth.  We can increase food reliability for most of the world and reduce atmospheric carbon at the same time, as just one example.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22114652



This, but because no one is adopting those strategies, TRUE. We've adopted a rate of growth beyond our ability to mitigate our impact. By that definition, we are overpopulating earth. Species are dying, forests thinning, and climate is becoming increasingly unsustainable.




Does it help that there are still four nuclear reactors in full meltdown along with the recently release massive quantity of stored radioactive water at Fukushima?  Of course it will help with overpopulation. 

When was climate ever "sustainable".  The PNW used to be tropical, millions of years before humans even were around.  Shall we blame overpopulation and CO2 from too many humans for that very warm tropical climate with no humans around? 

Of course we can, and we just did.  Enjoy your cap and trade taxes and gasoline prices and electrical prices and natural gas prices going through the roof in the coming years.  Of course it will do zero for population control, but Goldman Sachs will get even richer selling "carbon credits" as the rest of us continue to get poorer paying for being able to drive to work or the grocery store.

Good thinking climate "scientists" already proven to be complete liars but nobody seems to care.  It's an Agenda, truth matters little when money and control is involved.


--------------------
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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22304705 - 09/28/15 07:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Does it help that there are still four nuclear reactors in full meltdown along with the recently release massive quantity of stored radioactive water at Fukushima?  Of course it will help with overpopulation. 

When was climate ever "sustainable".  The PNW used to be tropical, millions of years before humans even were around.  Shall we blame overpopulation and CO2 from too many humans for that very warm tropical climate with no humans around? 

Of course we can, and we just did.  Enjoy your cap and trade taxes and gasoline prices and electrical prices and natural gas prices going through the roof in the coming years.  Of course it will do zero for population control, but Goldman Sachs will get even richer selling "carbon credits" as the rest of us continue to get poorer paying for being able to drive to work or the grocery store.

Good thinking climate "scientists" already proven to be complete liars but nobody seems to care.  It's an Agenda, truth matters little when money and control is involved.




Blah, blah, blah. Do some research.


Edited by Arctic W. Fox (09/28/15 07:29 PM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: Arctic W. Fox]
    #22304733 - 09/28/15 07:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Arctic W. Fox said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Does it help that there are still four nuclear reactors in full meltdown along with the recently release massive quantity of stored radioactive water at Fukushima?  Of course it will help with overpopulation. 

When was climate ever "sustainable".  The PNW used to be tropical, millions of years before humans even were around.  Shall we blame overpopulation and CO2 from too many humans for that very warm tropical climate with no humans around? 

Of course we can, and we just did.  Enjoy your cap and trade taxes and gasoline prices and electrical prices and natural gas prices going through the roof in the coming years.  Of course it will do zero for population control, but Goldman Sachs will get even richer selling "carbon credits" as the rest of us continue to get poorer paying for being able to drive to work or the grocery store.

Good thinking climate "scientists" already proven to be complete liars but nobody seems to care.  It's an Agenda, truth matters little when money and control is involved.




Blah, blah, blah. Do some research.




Do you have a point other than the top of your dunce cap?


--------------------
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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22304759 - 09/28/15 07:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Do you have a point other than the top of your dunce cap?




Yep, right here:

Quote:

Arctic W. Fox said:
Do some research.




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OfflineMachineElf1.618
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: Arctic W. Fox]
    #22305933 - 09/28/15 11:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Yup we are almost to the overpopulation point and soon (within the next 100 years) governments will start regulating the birth and death rate. Or they will probably find another way to start killing us off.

By the way I want to clear the misconception that the population limit is based on the amount of resources available. The supply of resources is a factor but not the only one.


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Offlinefuzzysig
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #22312236 - 09/30/15 02:41 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

so let me clear something up with people who think we have no overpopulation.
what you saying is.
if a house can hold 50 people you would say that having 47 people live in that house is perfectly ok? because its under the limit...
its like a gas station grocery. it can hold 60-80 people I belive.
so imagine 50 people in a grocery shop how comfortable would you feel

earth's capacity is limited. one must be blind or ignorant not to see that.
and just because theres space on land its not ours to take.
even hard drives need a reserve space to operate.

and even more reserve space to operate at optimal speed. why you think the hard drives neet at least 15% free space?


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Offlinesomethingsomeonejr


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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22312252 - 09/30/15 02:58 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Let people die.
Let the old die, let the sick die, let people off themselves.

But no. Intead we're learning to make hearts from pigskin and re-animate dead tissue.


--------------------
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Offlinesnappytom
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: somethingsomeonejr]
    #22312326 - 09/30/15 03:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

A nasty virus would sort this dilemma out quickly if the government wanted too.but there ponzi growth economy needs more people too boost the economy.The government farms humans for taxes more humans more taxes.


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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: somethingsomeonejr]
    #22312767 - 09/30/15 07:39 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

somethingsomeonejr said:
Let people die.
Let the old die, let the sick die, let people off themselves.

But no. Instead we're learning to make hearts from pigskin and re-animate dead tissue.




I agree on this. Why is there such a need to save every single person on this world?


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OfflineMachineElf1.618
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: snappytom]
    #22315710 - 09/30/15 06:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

somethingsomeonejr said:
Let people die.
Let the old die, let the sick die, let people off themselves.

But no. Intead we're learning to make hearts from pigskin and re-animate dead tissue.



You know what, that is a good point you made. I've been in favor of artificial organs and helping the sick but now that we tie in this overpopulation topic now I'm conflicted.

Quote:

snappytom said:
A nasty virus would sort this dilemma out quickly if the government wanted too.but there ponzi growth economy needs more people too boost the economy.The government farms humans for taxes more humans more taxes.



Uhhh...what? I suggest you think about what you're saying because there is a huge fallacy in the point ur trying to make.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: MachineElf1.618]
    #22315789 - 09/30/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If the goal is to control populations,  then true.

False otherwise.

Im sitting here, smoking a cigarette, on some 500 acres of mostly untouched land.

And i know im not the only one.

When gov starts taking land and resources from the rich to sustain the population..then i will worry about over population.

Also, birthrates are at an all-time low, percentage wise. Some are even saying humans are slowly becoming extinct.


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InvisibleWhite Beard

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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: fuzzysig]
    #22315804 - 09/30/15 07:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

False. We can always build up, so space isn't an issue. Nuclear and renewables are enough for power. The problem is actually over population + poverty.


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Invisibleonce in a lifetime
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Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22319269 - 10/01/15 01:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Tilford cites a litany of sobering statistics showing just how profligate Americans have been in using and abusing natural resources. For example, between 1900 and 1989 U.S. population tripled while its use of raw materials grew by a factor of 17.  “With less than 5 percent of world population, the U.S. uses one-third of the world’s paper, a quarter of the world’s oil, 23 percent of the coal, 27 percent of the aluminum, and 19 percent of the copper,” he reports. “Our per capita use of energy, metals, minerals, forest products, fish, grains, meat, and even fresh water dwarfs that of people living in the developing world.”

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/american-consumption-habits/





What this means is that no, we cannot raise the standard of living for everybody.  If we raised all 7.5 billion of us to the US standard of living and consumption rates, we would need four more Earths just to harvest the resources with present technology.
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2012-10/daily-infographic-if-everyone-lived-american-how-many-earths-would-we-need

IT'S TOO MANY!!!





haha - nice.  my father's book, 'Too Many'


I don't advertise it much because it's not really positive enough.  That's why I recommend the worldpopulationbalance.org website. . . they are the next generation - like me - who understand how serious this issue is, but also that it should be phrased positively: panic, worry and other things are never helpful. . .

To put that more shortly - healing is deserved and necessary.  Deserved by all, etc., and necessary for our planet and its peoples.

Since I was very young, I had this realization - we survived an ice age, nothing else could be difficult after that. 


It was very nice to come across the WPB site, as I mentioned, because they came across several of these ideas simultaneously - to share the message with hope - it's NOT too late, etc. . . An uphill climb - perhaps - but not too late for future generations;


Yet - the urgency of changing our behavior so there will be a habitable planet for them - that is undeniable, and paramount.


The issue is primarily exponential growth - doubling every 25-30 years - this must be halted, and reversed, by humane methods - that is;


raising awareness


which is very different from trying to force anyone . . . and - encouraging them to understand the issue, etc.  As my dad put it - we tend to ignore things that make us unhappy; so, again, to share these conjoined with the message of hope.


We can do this.


Life always finds a way - Life will always adapt - WE will adapt, we will survive - this is undeniable as well. . . we're one of the best adapters. . . well, we survived the dinosaur's doom because we were very small then - and later on, we mastered Space Flight another Wonders. . . and that endeavor lead to such technological advancements as - well, look it up sometime, there's quite a few.


The point is - to face the future calmly and with intelligent - with our best.  Panic does not help - but the simplicity of the fact that exponential growth leads to one conclusion: collapse, is undeniable.


It is also a fact that most of the growth is occurring in places such as Malaysia and similar regions - Pakistan, for example, had a doubling in population over a 30 year period, like most of the rest of the places - and their problems increased by several factors.


Look at a Ceder tree - it grows until it dies. . . ' While weeping Atlas Ceders, they just want to grow, grow and grow. . . '


Growth for the sake of growth is the philosophy of cancer, as one platitude expresses.


I passed through all the normal things - left 'em behind. . . long time 'go. 



There's no need for anger, there's no need for blame.




The calmer we are, the more work we can get done - these things are always the same. 



We are losing many - many - species every day; 40-50 each day, by several estimates - even if it were 5 - that is too much.


So this is clearly the central issue of today - well, there are three inter-connected ones, to my mind: Population, turning off the war machine, and materialism or pollution in general. . . they are closely inter-woven. . . The solution is the same as ever . . . and when you help in one area - you tend to help another. . .


When you turn down materialism - you are helping all three - so that's the main thing.


There is no point in complaining - simply live the solution, and share it.



Who here has heard of the Quagga? :sun:  Last seen, 1883, I think. . .



Peace work is still the same as it was 1,000 years ago. . . we are more interconnected by technology - yet we were already this interconnected, it was just not as apparent.


So healing and peace work are the general solution - to turn off the war machine, and so forth.



Peace -

J.


--------------------
Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland          Julia Delaney, Bothy Band                                        Rasta Girl, Sister Carol                    Genesis, Jorma K
I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing                                                                                                                    Do Your Thing, Moondog                     
large  . . music garden . .  very
all peace                    them hi
Starhouse - main
Time Traveler's Guide


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Offlineeehoo
Stranger

Registered: 09/26/15
Posts: 711
Last seen: 8 years, 18 days
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: once in a lifetime] * 1
    #22329373 - 10/03/15 05:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Primitivism to some extent is necessary in order to properly exist on earth and keep the balance equal .../ keep the cycle going #Nature . What we have now is over population, and isn't sustainable or moral to continue


--------------------


Edited by eehoo (10/03/15 05:01 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: eehoo]
    #22329403 - 10/03/15 05:09 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Very succinctly and very correctly stated.  Welcome to PS&P.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineshroominated
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Registered: 11/12/13
Posts: 362
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22332443 - 10/04/15 12:15 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

even if over population was true who gets the right to decide who lives and dies Donald trump?


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: shroominated]
    #22332479 - 10/04/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroominated said:
even if over population was true who gets the right to decide who lives and dies Donald trump?




"You're Fired" becomes an anachronism for the cremated ones...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleenlightened seed
Utopia is a state of mind
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Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 2,117
Loc: amongst civilization
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22333363 - 10/04/15 03:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

overpopulation  :fishsmack:


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OfflineArctic W. Fox
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Registered: 09/23/14
Posts: 1,357
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: shroominated]
    #22333687 - 10/04/15 05:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

shroominated said:
even if over population was true who gets the right to decide who lives and dies Donald trump?




I'd like to see natural selection weed people out.

We could have an agreement that anyone participating in the show "Jackass" will be denied ANY medical treatment.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: overpopulation true or false? [Re: Arctic W. Fox]
    #22339301 - 10/06/15 12:13 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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