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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!!
#22289352 - 09/25/15 05:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've posted countless times due to my bacteria issues and believe me that I'll try more or less anything that is suggested to me, even if it doesn't completely make sense.
If anyone uses WBS over and over and has contam free growth, please tell me how exactly you prep your grain. I use RR's videos, which are really great as I've just started to use 10% gypsum with my grain & also my bulk sub, but the grain prep video doesn't seem specific enough for me to not get the nasty bacteria.
I've tried: 1. Different simmering times, making sure not to burst more than 5% 2. I don't ever pull the sunflower seeds. They colonize just fine. 3. No soak, 6-24 hour soaks combined with or w/o simmering after 4. PC usually 90 min, but lately 120, just to make sure.
I JUST soaked 12 jars for 6 hrs, then PC'd for 120 min. I also am trying a batch with 24 hr soak, and bringing the water to a simmering temp just to help with the steam dry.
I dry all of my seeds on towels for at least 4 hours with fans so that when i put them in the jar, they don't stick.
BUT!!!!
When I PC them, the seeds stick to the jars, which I know is just condensation, but after 24 hours, it's still doing this:
 
When before the PC, looked like this:
   
So please, any and all advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm going to hold off on PCing this grain until I get some good answers to try out. Thanks guys!!
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filthyknees
no coincidence


Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6,283
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22289370 - 09/25/15 05:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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started an almost identical thread less than 24 hours ago
quit hogging & pass that shit
-------------------- But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow That it's one thing to try and another to fly You get there quicker just a step at a time It's one thing to bark, another to bite The show ain't over till you pack up at night
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EntheoGod
Entheo



Registered: 03/06/15
Posts: 648
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22289390 - 09/25/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am interested in seeing the responses...I hope a TC answers your question. I dont have any experience with this but I would love to see the answers. 
Although from taking a guess I would say for you to tighten the polyfill in the lids and also make sure your foil is nicely on there
 Here are the 2 quarts I PC'ed and had a tiny bit of them sticking to the glass. Not sure if it was successful yet because I only inoculated them a few days ago. Nothing yet..
Edited by EntheoGod (09/25/15 05:21 PM)
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LocN9ne
ɢᄋᄋd ԲᄋЯ ᄁᄋȚᅢΙᄁɢ ᄂᄋ₩ᄂΙԲᄐ



Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 7,076
Loc: to the brain
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84] 1
#22289392 - 09/25/15 05:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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After your simmer and strain how do you dry them? I bring them to a hard boil for a minute or two, strain, then return them to the still hot pot (they should be steaming at this point...then I agitate the pot by shaking it up and down pretty hard... I do that every couple of minutes until they are dry enough before I load my jars for the PC...I had that wet grain problem before I started really steam drying like that...hope that helps
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Q&A US vs. THEM The more I learn, the less I know.
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DaHamentashenkid
Stranger

Registered: 06/21/15
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: filthyknees]
#22289403 - 09/25/15 05:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I use WBS exclusively and I never have any issues. I rinse it until the water is clear and pull out all the sunflower seeds. At this point I turn my oven on to 200 Fahrenheit. Then I cover it in hot water in the same pot with the lid on. Bring it to a boil and then turn it off after one full minute and leave it covered to rest for ten minutes. Then I dump it into my strainer and rinse it with cold water until it's cooled down. I let it sit there for five minutes and then put it on a sheet tray in a thin layer, working in batches, and put it into the oven for six minutes stirring it around every two minutes. Then I put it in my jars an pressure cook.
Edited by DaHamentashenkid (09/25/15 05:21 PM)
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gizmo1



Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 3,831
Loc: FREEDOM
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DaHamentashenkid]
#22289477 - 09/25/15 05:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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How are you inoculating these jars? You could be getting bacteria from your cultures even if using agar. Bacteria can be sneaky. In all my experience with wbs I found that moisture content isn't a big deal as long as its not outragiously wet. And the grains usually dry out before they finish colonizing. They always look wet out of the pressure cooker even when they went in completely dry on the outside.
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: gizmo1] 1
#22289612 - 09/25/15 06:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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jbaby007
Badass



Registered: 02/28/15
Posts: 1,026
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22289732 - 09/25/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've only used wbs since I've started bulk earlier this year and the only tek I have followed has been this No Cook WBS method. I've had great success with it. There was only one time when I either didn't pc it long enough or I didn't rinse it well enough and two out of the six jars turned a mean green, but that was when I first started. However, there are many teks for prepping wbs and people still have success either way. If I were you, I'd look into my sterile technique. I also noticed that certain brands of wbs are dirtier than others so I switched over to another brand which was less of a hassle when it came to rinsing.
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Munchauzen


Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,342
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: jbaby007]
#22289749 - 09/25/15 07:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
jbaby007 said: I've only used wbs since I've started bulk earlier this year and the only tek I have followed has been this No Cook WBS method. I've had great success with it. There was only one time when I either didn't pc it long enough or I didn't rinse it well enough and two out of the six jars turned a mean green, but that was when I first started. However, there are many teks for prepping wbs and people still have success either way. If I were you, I'd look into my sterile technique. I also noticed that certain brands of wbs are dirtier than others so I switched over to another brand which was less of a hassle when it came to rinsing.
good method
also, it should be noted that sunflower seeds are removed not because they don't colonize... they do that just fine... however, they don't retain moisture for shit.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: Munchauzen]
#22289811 - 09/25/15 07:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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post a picture of ur jars, after u inoculate them, when u think you are first seeing signs of bacteria. post pictures of ur plates when u inoculate too.
bacteria can come from ur innoculant (MS syringe, "clean" plate, LC, LI)
bacteria can come from ur grains (faulty/short PC cycle and/or rarely ur grain source considering u are doing 2 hours)
all white does not always equal "all right"
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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EntheoGod
Entheo



Registered: 03/06/15
Posts: 648
Last seen: 7 months, 28 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blindingleaf]
#22289849 - 09/25/15 07:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea
Quote:
blindingleaf said:
all white does not always equal "all right"
this goes for races as well..lol
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: EntheoGod]
#22290268 - 09/25/15 09:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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it's going to be your inoculant or your sterility inoculating, you said your doing 2 hours at 15 psi so it isnt' your grains, check your filters and your inoculant.
what the grain looks like before and after the pc means little, burstgrains will be starchy sticky and slow but still sterile, i never simmer wbs i find it to get too sticky for my liking i simply soak for a day or so drain for a bit load and pc
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Machiavelliavore
Vermiculite Hater



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 3,038
Loc: The Sporetorn States
Last seen: 3 months, 20 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22290295 - 09/25/15 09:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting ^, in cold water? And it hydrates sufficiently between what soaks in and what's left over and steamed in the PC?
OP, , probably bad inoculant. Just because it came from a vendor doesn't mean it's perfect. All humans are capable of fucking up anything.
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I spawned some popcorn casings and had double-overlay cause I didn't put enough hydrogen peroxide in my automated aquarium mister. I only got one mushroom so I cut off the head part where the seeds fall from and put it in a jar of LC and sprayed it all over a tin of PF cakes I made with gravel, cardboard, and bisquick in my microwave. I think it will be good cause B+ is so potent. Triggered yet? Only a square would say "a cube is a cube."
No, this does not look right...
Edited by Machiavelliavore (09/25/15 09:25 PM)
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: Machiavelliavore]
#22290504 - 09/25/15 10:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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i start any soak with hot water to prevent germinating grain
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22293288 - 09/26/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Every time I inoculate, I always use more than one source. I have 3 strains in 3 different syringes from a trusted site, plus a number of different agar plates.
I'm now about to PC the grain that has only soaked for 24 hours. The grains aren't nearly as big and hydrated as they usually are, but they shouldn't be sticky and have too much excess water.
Isn't it possible for some bacteria to withstand 2 hours of 15 psi? I know it's resilient, so If 2 hours guarantees that all bacteria is dead, even if my grain is a little wet? Or has more than 5% burst grain?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22293326 - 09/26/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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yea, it is possible. but for best advice, post a pic when u start seeing what you think is bacteria. IME, if its towards the end of a jars colonization, its confined to a spot or two, i'd blame the PC cycle or the grains (maybe u aren't venting long enough?) if its starting earlier, like 20% and on (or really even at leap off), then its probably ur syringe or agar plates. leave a jar uninnoculated if ur really unsure of where it is coming from. put it with the rest of ur jars that u noc up, and see if bacteria shows at the same time or not.
wet and burst grains won't cause bacteria in and of themselves (unless u have crazy pooling or a large amount burst), but it doesn't help prevent bacteria if even a little is in there (like some bacteria in the syringe for example). usually heat in room is biggest cause IME, and wetter grains and burst grains just compound that.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blindingleaf]
#22293504 - 09/26/15 01:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, I think the heat might have been the issue. Now I'm kicking myself for that. I had a small heater on a timer to keep the room at 80f, which inside the jar is about 82f.
They colonized quickly, but at the cost of my entire grow. I'll never do that again. How could this site, even 10 years ago, say that 86f is the best temp for myc? If it causes bacteria even half the time would've been obvious that 86f is causing bacterial isssues?
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


Registered: 07/19/13
Posts: 22,008
Loc: sub-surface unseen
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22293572 - 09/26/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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its just old info.
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 5 hours
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22294268 - 09/26/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DinkinFlicka84 said: Yeah, I think the heat might have been the issue. Now I'm kicking myself for that. I had a small heater on a timer to keep the room at 80f, which inside the jar is about 82f.
They colonized quickly, but at the cost of my entire grow. I'll never do that again. How could this site, even 10 years ago, say that 86f is the best temp for myc? If it causes bacteria even half the time would've been obvious that 86f is causing bacterial issues?
Ha this 'site' still constantly informs me on a weekly basis that boiling shrooms will destroy all the goodies. Some info just refuses to die! I think even posts that correct faulty info still end up somehow perpetuating it!
Are you saying that your grows end up totally contaminating OP and if so in what way? Do you end up with mold for example or do you just not get any fruits?
Just trying to work out what makes you so sure its a bacterial problem?
Interesting thread here http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22110907 about bacteria issues and to be honest mad season really opened my eyes to the notion that bacteria is very difficult and perhaps not really possible to avoid.
Quote:
@ wolf, it's still a heated debate today that getting jars to be 100% clean of bacteria is impossible. However increasing pc times generally makes them much cleaner looking
I am assuming however that in your case the bacteria is destroying everything in its path? Maybe I've missed alot of previous information but I think we need to know more about what happens to your jars from beginning to end.
Some of those jars do look too sticky and personally I would switch to a better more consistent type of grain. My fave was millet (black) or rye, no stickiness whatsoever!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



Registered: 04/20/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22295336 - 09/26/15 07:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DinkinFlicka84 said: Yeah, I think the heat might have been the issue. Now I'm kicking myself for that. I had a small heater on a timer to keep the room at 80f, which inside the jar is about 82f.
They colonized quickly, but at the cost of my entire grow. I'll never do that again. How could this site, even 10 years ago, say that 86f is the best temp for myc? If it causes bacteria even half the time would've been obvious that 86f is causing bacterial isssues?
You know man the very first time I have ever had (visible at least) bacteria in spawn jars was this summer. I left out of town for a few days and my air conditioner was on the fritz, during the hottest week of the summer. Temp inside easily went into mid to high 80's. Every single one of those spawn jars showed heavy bacteria with the exception of one jar from the same round that was left in the cool basement for some reason.
--------------------
 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: wolf8312]
#22295466 - 09/26/15 07:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wolf:
My subs would get green mold, trich and other, before the 1st flush. I've gotten fruits usually, despite the mold, but not as many obviously.
My jars, this last go round, looked like this. ALL of my jars.

I want to say before this grow, about 5 months back, my jars were all white, didn't have little uncolonized spots, and would become moldy 1 week after being in the GH. The little spots are what make me think it's bacteria. I always shake my jars twice, occasionally before they're even 20% colonized if I'm in a hurry. Yes, I realize now that cutting corners, like heating my grow area, defeats the purpose, since everything goes bad.
So, I should leave my closet at or below 78? Or would that be too hot inside the jars which would be about 80f. What's the correct range that will keep bacteria from expanding.
Also, how do my jars get bacteria from heat, if my inoculant and grain were contam free to being with? Assuming that the grain/inoculant were free of any bacteria to start? That must mean that the bacteria is always there, but the myc usually is a little faster to colonize at lower temps and higher temps give bacteria the head start?
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



Registered: 04/20/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22295517 - 09/26/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I would just keep your jars at room temp man, depending on what it is in your house. If your temp stays above 63-65 you're good man '
So you are sure your jars are going bacterial? They smell like bacteria/look like this ?
Or are you saying that your trays go green after you fruit them? Trich will hide in grain spawn. You usually won't see it after your jars colonize, after G2G, after your tubs are fully colonized even.
Usually trich rears its ugly forest green head when you fruit your substrate, because you are in effect fruiting the trich as well.
If this is the case, I would look at your innoculant and inoculation practices
--------------------
 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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Darkhome
•Shaman•N•Training•



Registered: 07/10/15
Posts: 517
Loc: United States
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22295563 - 09/26/15 07:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Fall is finally here, maybe your contam rates will drop, most people's do. I keep my grow area around 75 degrees Fahrenheit... It is a walk in closet with a fan constantly running on low, so the temperature sometimes fluctuates, but it usually doesn't drop below 72 or get above 80...I like it to stay around 75-78 if possible. This has been what works for me and I've tried 4 different WBS preps, they all worked. You will get there bro...You are already moving in the right direction. Agar is the key to clean spawn, then it's all downhill from there (easier I mean)...I use Pasty Plates. Haven't failed me yet.
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” ~Terence McKenna~ "NOTHING"...I post or say is "TRUE"...Any pictures are taken from the Web and any conversation is just research for a fictional character. That being said; He is constantly seeking knowledge and evolving.
Edited by Darkhome (09/26/15 07:58 PM)
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wolf8312
Pennywise


Registered: 10/01/12
Posts: 2,356
Last seen: 4 days, 5 hours
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: mushpunx]
#22296503 - 09/26/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushpunx said: I would just keep your jars at room temp man, depending on what it is in your house. If your temp stays above 63-65 you're good man '
So you are sure your jars are going bacterial? They smell like bacteria/look like this ?
Or are you saying that your trays go green after you fruit them? Trich will hide in grain spawn. You usually won't see it after your jars colonize, after G2G, after your tubs are fully colonized even.
Usually trich rears its ugly forest green head when you fruit your substrate, because you are in effect fruiting the trich as well.
If this is the case, I would look at your innoculant and inoculation practices
lol! That bacteria! I never caught it that bad!
OP I wake up and all the pics are already gone buddy! Defo get the heater away and as the saying goes heat the room not the jars. Are you sure you even need an incubator or heating system? You must live in a pretty cold place right?
I only ever grew in the winter and wouldnt even attempt in the summer due to the dreaded fruit flies mainly, but aside from them summer is a shit storm of contamination.
Im not sure bacteria is your problem either or it might just be one of many! Defo get rid of the heater but you might want to outline your sterile technique. Make sure you cover all the variables. One time I got mold in my spawn because unknown to me all my SFD's had come loose over time!
-------------------- "I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of." Pennywise the dancing clown
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: wolf8312]
#22300733 - 09/27/15 09:50 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, the pics I had all look like the one I posted above. They have the little tiny spots that didn't colonize. In fact, before I did their first shake, there were only a small number of these little spots, but after a good shake, the tiny spots were everywhere and the jars ALL smelled bad. Sweet, sour, seedish, and just bad. I've smelled my share of bad as well as good healthy jars. I noticed to smell them before you shake them to spawn to bulk sub, otherwise, for some reason, the spawn smells like mushrooms again when you break it up and shake it, but you can still kinda smell the bacteria.
The reason I think it's bacteria is the small uncolonized spots. Wouldn't most you of you agree that it IS in fact bacteria? Also, the way I got the bacteria, shows that it's not trich, necessarily. The heater kept my closet at 80f-82f, and the inside of the jars, which I opened one and took the temp from the top, mid, and bottom of the seed inside and it was about 2 degrees warmer, so not a huge spike, but still anything above 80 ruins my spawn.
Tonight, I'm knocking up with 3 diff. MS from a trusted site that I used once before and have kept in the fridge until now. This shouldn't have any issues since I kept it refridgerated, right? Unless is was already contaminated. I never even sucked the plunger back up to keep any contaminants out. I just pushed it out a little to inoculate and taht's it.
I used to inoculate with 1cc per qt sized jar, but I swear that was one of the main reasons why my subs would go bad before even the first flush! Plus I think I was using a heater a lot of the time to speed things up. SO NOOB of me. I'll be patient leave them at room temp (74-76f).
I'm loving all of this info from experienced members of this site, so keep the debate rolling and if you need me to post anymore pics, I'll be sure and do that. I really do appreciate all of the input because this hobby is truly rewarding because it can be very difficult as well.
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



Registered: 04/20/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22300774 - 09/27/15 10:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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If it smells bad then yea, huge indicator of bacteria. If your tubs go white, then green its most likely trich. No reason you can't have both, and no reason bacteria won't weaken the substrates defenses to mold either.
As for putting a spore syringe to grain, very few syringes are truly clean. BRF is a bit more forgiving than grain, most syringes are clean enough for cakes but not grain spawn.
Most of us would never put spores to grain without cleaning up the culture on agar first. So if you really wanna lose the bacteria, learn to utilize agar (it sounds kinda hard but its so much less work than you think, and easy).
--------------------
 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 8 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22301160 - 09/28/15 01:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DinkinFlicka84 said: Wolf:
My subs would get green mold, trich and other, before the 1st flush. I've gotten fruits usually, despite the mold, but not as many obviously.
My jars, this last go round, looked like this. ALL of my jars.

I want to say before this grow, about 5 months back, my jars were all white, didn't have little uncolonized spots, and would become moldy 1 week after being in the GH. The little spots are what make me think it's bacteria. I always shake my jars twice, occasionally before they're even 20% colonized if I'm in a hurry. Yes, I realize now that cutting corners, like heating my grow area, defeats the purpose, since everything goes bad.
So, I should leave my closet at or below 78? Or would that be too hot inside the jars which would be about 80f. What's the correct range that will keep bacteria from expanding.
Also, how do my jars get bacteria from heat, if my inoculant and grain were contam free to being with? Assuming that the grain/inoculant were free of any bacteria to start? That must mean that the bacteria is always there, but the myc usually is a little faster to colonize at lower temps and higher temps give bacteria the head start?
I dont see bacteria but I see dried grain on top frm your filters
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



Registered: 04/20/14
Posts: 13,394
Last seen: 11 days, 13 hours
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22301539 - 09/28/15 07:03 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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So you end up with un colonized grain in your sub causing it to contaminated?
--------------------
 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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dinosaurcocks
Stranger

Registered: 08/14/15
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: mushpunx]
#22302408 - 09/28/15 11:37 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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kinda looks like you are missdiagnosing bacterial contamination...grains not fully colonizing on the sides is generally just water gloming between the grain and the jar...mycelium doesnt like to grow on overly wet grains, and overly dry grains produce less thick mycelium in my experience.
make sure your grains are actually simmering before you take them out to strain, i get quite a few bubbles coming out sometimes, almost looks like its simmering but water is cool to the touch, and i like to stir my grains while straining till it stops steaming alltogether
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: dinosaurcocks]
#22302432 - 09/28/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Or just skip the simmer/boil step all together....
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PussyFart]
#22303069 - 09/28/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's only for WBS. yea? No simmer?
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 Amateur Mycologists United AMU Q&A
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PussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: mushpunx]
#22303569 - 09/28/15 03:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea, just WBS.
I cannot comment on other grain preps, because this is the only grain I have ever used.
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THIS HOBBY IS NOT FOR THE IMPATIENT! PLEASE BE PATIENT, DON'T BE A PATIENT! A Tale of 10 Isolates, GT Cluster Clone Monotubs, RR's Let's Grow Mushrooms DVD, SGFC(Shotgun Fruiting Chamber), Monotub Tek, Damion5050's Coir Tek, TL's Tek List, Frank's Tek List, EvilMushroom666's Pasteurization Tek, How It Should & Shouldn't Look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE *** *** AFGHAN KUSH GROW LOG *** ***
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tahoe
Noob Slayer



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PussyFart]
#22303649 - 09/28/15 04:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey drinking flicka. I have not read this whole thread and I have a feeling that your weight on the pc jiggles or hisses a whole bunch? Try cooking at a tad lower temp. So that your weight doesn't hiss or jiggle. I notice items come out of the pc much dryer if there is no steam escaping.
You could also add a 1/2-1 tsp of lime to each jar before pcing.
I use bird seed that looks as wet as yours all the time. I almost never get bacteria.
What type of lid are you using? That little bit of moisture should easily evap out with the correct lid filter combo. Remove the foil if needed. But I would seriously consider the lower pc temp.
-------------------- Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.
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blindingleaf
blue collar underworld


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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: tahoe]
#22304647 - 09/28/15 07:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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im gonna have to disagree with u on the steam thing man. thats why i switched to the stop cock with the thread u posted. my jigglier/exhaust was broke. way too much steam was escaping. if ur jigglier is rocking excessively, venting steam, ur jars are also losing a little bit of moisture as that happens. same when u open a PC too soon after its done with grains (can rapidly lose moisture in jars) or agar (it will rapidly boil over), except its happening at a much slower rate, but over the coarse of 1.5-2 hours, too much jiggling/exhausting can dry out grains IME. with the stop cock (or my 915 which has properly functioning exhaust), my grains come out perfect. i agree with u that he should lower flame on stove. i basically run my PC so it NEVER jiggles more than a few times when i first get to pressure. i test it by stomping hard on the floor of the kitchen. if when i stomp, the jigglier rocks/exhaust, then that is the flame setting i keep it on if that makes sense. it is literally JUST below the PSI needed to cause jigglier to rock.
(jigglier=jiggler)
-------------------- A few thoughts on cultivation MICROBIAL HUSBANDRY!!!! The whole is greater than the sum of its parts
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22305338 - 09/28/15 09:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22305630 - 09/28/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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i''m just going to say you have had mold the whole time and didn't see it, if a jar makes it as far as the one you posted it should spawn out just fine, bacillus and coli would dtop you from getting full colonization and you would know to just chuck the jar
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22305900 - 09/28/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I didn't simmer my WBS but soaked it. Seems to be going ok.
On the flip side I didn't soak my oats but I did boil. Also seems to be going ok.
I think with WBS you risk it getting over saturated if you simmer and difficult to get dry enough befor loading into jars.
I'm worried about contams too. I have agar going just in case but so far so good. Even though folks told me my silicone ports weren't necessary on my lids if I used a SAB, im kinda glad I made them. I think I would have questioned my technique if I got a contaminant now after opening the lid after PC.
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: mushpunx]
#22305901 - 09/28/15 11:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushpunx said: As for putting a spore syringe to grain, very few syringes are truly clean. BRF is a bit more forgiving than grain, most syringes are clean enough for cakes but not grain spawn.
Most of us would never put spores to grain without cleaning up the culture on agar first. So if you really wanna lose the bacteria, learn to utilize agar (it sounds kinda hard but its so much less work than you think, and easy).
I was unaware that spore to grain was such a bad idea, as that's how I used to inoculate all of my grain by MS syringes from our online spore site. As for agar, I've been using it for about 6 months now and I love it. I'm using all of the rest of my agar plates to knock up mass amounts of jars I have ready. I suppose now, I won't use any syringe to grain, only syringe to agar to clean it up.
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22305925 - 09/28/15 11:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: i''m just going to say you have had mold the whole time and didn't see it, if a jar makes it as far as the one you posted it should spawn out just fine, bacillus and coli would stop you from getting full colonization and you would know to just chuck the jar
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, because initially I wanted to ask, "how could it spawn just fine if the jar smells bad?" If they are in fact fine, then I'm excited to know I can still spawn the remaining jars that look just like that one.
Everyone of my jars, regardless of the strain, smelled bad when they were fully colonized like in the pic above. I can't imagine that I did the wrong thing in tossing most of those off/sweet smelling jars. I actually left about 20 jars that had the same issue, but weren't 100% colonized just in case.
Should I fruit these stinky jars? They do not smell like that good mushroomy smell at all.
Lastly, how could a smelly jar fruit just fine? Is that even possible?
Edited by DinkinFlicka84 (09/29/15 12:09 AM)
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PussyFart]
#22305929 - 09/28/15 11:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PussyFart said: Or just skip the simmer/boil step all together....
Do you normally skip the simmer?
I've started to, since my grain isn't as sticky and eventually they don't stick to the jar after a couple days after PC'd.
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22306075 - 09/29/15 12:27 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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i was just saying your jar appears to have fully colonized without obvious signs of contams which makes me think it's not bacteria but mold had it been just bacteria you could spawn them ....moldy spawn makes moldy tubs though
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: cronicr]
#22306531 - 09/29/15 04:27 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: i was just saying your jar appears to have fully colonized without obvious signs of contams which makes me think it's not bacteria but mold had it been just bacteria you could spawn them ....moldy spawn makes moldy tubs though
How can I know that it's just bacteria? The only time I've ever seen the little spots on the WBS that hasn't colonized (millimeter in diameter), the jars have caused mold within or before the first flush.
Does bacteria cause a smell within the jars? What are tell tale signs of common bacteria in WBS jars?
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22307535 - 09/29/15 10:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackdust said:

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PirateSwazey


Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22307624 - 09/29/15 11:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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For what it's worth... here's my 2 cents for you guys struggling with grain prep...
Call up your local whole foods and ask to be transferred to their grocery department. Tell the grocery person you want a bulk order of 50lb organic rye berries (if you say grain it will confuse them). The grain will cost about $50-65 a bag, and for good reason. It is extremely clean -- I have never even rinsed this grain even when soaking 200lbs at one time. If you were to try that with WBS it would make a giant clump in whatever container you put it in. I have been using RR's rye prep with this grain for years now and although it is more expensive I don't mind because it is simply the easiest grain to prep. Even RR used organic rye berries, which is who I got the pro tip from.
If the extra money doesn't make sense look at it like this... a 50# bag costs $60... It also is enough grain to make enough spawn for around 15 tubs. 15 tubs should give you at least 4-5lbs of dry fruties... You finish the equation.
Quote:
DinkinFlicka84 said:
Quote:
cronicr said: i was just saying your jar appears to have fully colonized without obvious signs of contams which makes me think it's not bacteria but mold had it been just bacteria you could spawn them ....moldy spawn makes moldy tubs though
How can I know that it's just bacteria? The only time I've ever seen the little spots on the WBS that hasn't colonized (millimeter in diameter), the jars have caused mold within or before the first flush.
Does bacteria cause a smell within the jars? What are tell tale signs of common bacteria in WBS jars?
Bacteria smells sour... It usually will have a wet spot on the grain or look slimy. From what I've read it sounds like you are not getting clean cultures on your agar plates that you're inoculating with (there is mold intertwined with your cube myc). Maybe try posting some pics of what they look like, and for good measure start a new plate from MS and make a few quick transfers as soon as there is enough growth to make one.
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22307653 - 09/29/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I haven't rinsed grain since I started. But I use oats.
Oats are great . Hi Pirate
-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22307657 - 09/29/15 11:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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well said pirate, I used to tell the ladies at whole foods I was making beer with all the berries I was buying.
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PirateSwazey


Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
Loc: Here, Now
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22307660 - 09/29/15 11:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackdust said: well said pirate, I used to tell the ladies at whole foods I was making beer with all the berries I was buying.
That is exactly what I do
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midnightmaraude
Stranger


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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22307830 - 09/29/15 12:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I say that with all the molasses I buy to make rum. I don't even know if you can make beer using molasses but it shuts them up enough.
Pirate...Oats is where it's at man.
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PirateSwazey


Registered: 12/12/12
Posts: 2,993
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: midnightmaraude]
#22308002 - 09/29/15 12:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oats suck IMO but I didn't drop in here to argue about it lol. I've just seen this OP struggling with getting it together for awhile and want to see him through.
There's a lot of things that are popular here on the msg boards that I disagree with but most of the time I just keep my opinions to myself. So I guess take what I say with a grain of salt. Just know when I speak on a topic, which is a rare occasion, it's backed by years of experience... This is what I do.
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22308164 - 09/29/15 12:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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HIGHLY, recommends to go through pirates information
Quote:
PirateSwazey said: This is what I do.
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22309085 - 09/29/15 03:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
PirateSwazey said: Oats suck IMO but I didn't drop in here to argue about it lol. I've just seen this OP struggling with getting it together for awhile and want to see him through.
I appreciate the help there, Pirate. I'm definitely down to go the rye berry route next time I'm ready for another batch. I've used WBS for the 2 years I've been into this hobby, since that's how I was taught. Plus, it works.
I'm not sure if you read everything in this thread, but I was fairly certain (and that what caused my last batch to go bad was due to the heater I had in the closet with them, keeping my jars at about 82f inside with some fluctuation. Would 82f be hot enough to cause jars to go bad? Normally I don't have any of those little pressed-against-the-jar spots. It seems that every time I've ever heated my jars, they've contaminated before the first flush even.
I wanted to ask once more to the more experienced members about MS syringes. I have 3, but I've been knocking up everything with agar that have descended from those 3 syringes. Is it safe or a good idea to squirt 1 drop of MS into a quart of WBS? I've been slicing up each agar segment into 3-6 pieces so when I drop those pieces into the jars, they colonize quicker from multiple inoculation points. Good/bad idea???
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mushpunx
Fungus Punk



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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: PirateSwazey]
#22309254 - 09/29/15 04:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yea thats what I use too man. I special order a 50lb bag of organic rye berries once a month from a health food store in my city. About 50-60 bucks yea
It is nice rye! I usually give a quick rinse but youre right, they barely ever need it. And seeing how a 50lb bag will do about 15-20 tubs its fair, works out to like 2.50 per
--------------------
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: mushpunx]
#22311197 - 09/29/15 10:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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WBS was such a bitch to work with and I can see how the potential for contaminants is higher that with other grains. Oats were so simple to prep I almost thought it was too easy and must have messed up. There were super clean too and much cheaper than rye berries.
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: Kalistis]
#22311707 - 09/29/15 11:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caelistis said: WBS was such a bitch to work with and I can see how the potential for contaminants is higher that with other grains. Oats were so simple to prep I almost thought it was too easy and must have messed up. There were super clean too and much cheaper than rye berries.
1. What type of oats? 2. Where's a cheap place to buy them and 3.is there anything different about the prep process, 3. besides rinsing less dirt?
Here's more pics of the agar I'm using. These 2 pics are the ONLY agar I have with this blue coloring. I'm assuming it's bruising? Anyone seen exactly this on agar before?

I read here earlier that MS to grain was a terrible idea. When I first started this hobby, that's all I knew how to do. The way I learned was from a long time friend, who is now a long time member of this site, who passed along the info from here . I love this site and all the help btw.
Edited by DinkinFlicka84 (09/30/15 01:03 AM)
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22312176 - 09/30/15 02:12 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Always use whole oats. And I don't really see any difference between whole oats and any other grain these days. Oats are by far the easiest to prep tho. Boil them hard for 45 mins until the inside is soft and clear. Strain and don't even let it dry. Load into jars/bags still wet from the boil.
The bruising is probably from the nutrients. What was the mix?
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: Mad Season]
#22312352 - 09/30/15 03:55 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Always use whole oats. And I don't really see any difference between whole oats and any other grain these days. Oats are by far the easiest to prep tho. Boil them hard for 45 mins until the inside is soft and clear. Strain and don't even let it dry. Load into jars/bags still wet from the boil.
The bruising is probably from the nutrients. What was the mix?
It's just agar agar. Do all/most strains yield about the same weight when used in equal proportions?
So oats have more nutrients than WBS? Or are they just cleaner and require less rinsing/prep?
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22312373 - 09/30/15 04:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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You need nutrients for it to grow. Like malt or even grain water. That's why it's bruising. I'd say yes on the strain question.
I'm pretty sure that oats has around the same nutrients. It just doesn't need rinsing and cleaner WBS has much more inoculation points due to the smaller grains. Oats are cheaper for me tho, so I run them the most. Just depends on what you want. Oats are just all around more convenient imo.
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DinkinFlicka84
Dude



Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 546
Last seen: 5 years, 12 days
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: Mad Season]
#22312414 - 09/30/15 04:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mad Season said: You need nutrients for it to grow. Like malt or even grain water. That's why it's bruising. I'd say yes on the strain question.
I'm pretty sure that oats has around the same nutrients. It just doesn't need rinsing and cleaner WBS has much more inoculation points due to the smaller grains. Oats are cheaper for me tho, so I run them the most. Just depends on what you want. Oats are just all around more convenient imo.
Well, the agar agar I ordered online said ready for mycology. It's worked just fine so far. That's the 1 bruised agar plate in 100 I've come across. I'm probably going to try out rye berries next.
Is there something wrong with inoculating WBS with MS besides the fact you can't see if there's contaminants and you don't know which or how good the strain will be when it fruits?
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22312686 - 09/30/15 07:14 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackdust said:
Quote:
blackdust said:

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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 2,265
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: blackdust]
#22313020 - 09/30/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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[image][url=http://files.shroomery.org/files/15-39/297872653-IMG_4772.jpg][image]
I just went to a feed store and got whole recleaned oats. I started with 4 MS syringes. 2 went straight to grain, 1 is being used with agar, and the last one has yet to be touched. My first batch of 12 jars (qt) are nearly ready to be spawned to bulk. None look contaminated but 2 are a little slow. My second batch are a week behind the first and I just shook them. This morning I woke up to find they all recovered!
2nd transfer to agar is happening tonight.
We'll see how it all works its self out when it is time to fruit.
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midnightmaraude
Stranger


Registered: 05/09/14
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Re: RR - Cannot get WBS dry enough to prevent bacteria! Pros Only! Thanks!! [Re: DinkinFlicka84]
#22313042 - 09/30/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Caelistis said: WBS was such a bitch to work with and I can see how the potential for contaminants is higher that with other grains. Oats were so simple to prep I almost thought it was too easy and must have messed up. There were super clean too and much cheaper than rye berries.
1. What type of oats? 2. Where's a cheap place to buy them and 3.is there anything different about the prep process, 3. besides rinsing less dirt?
Here's more pics of the agar I'm using. These 2 pics are the ONLY agar I have with this blue coloring. I'm assuming it's bruising? Anyone seen exactly this on agar before?

I read here earlier that MS to grain was a terrible idea. When I first started this hobby, that's all I knew how to do. The way I learned was from a long time friend, who is now a long time member of this site, who passed along the info from here . I love this site and all the help btw.
Go to a feed store and ask for whole oats. 50lb $13 bux man! You can't beat that shit
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