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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


Registered: 05/28/14
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a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate?
#22282672 - 09/24/15 08:56 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thought just came to me today, as its been about 4-5 days since I knocked up some jars and can't see any growth. My temps have been around 70.
So I thought...well..maybe spores are triggered to germinate at a certain temperature, such as 75-80, and after that, they can survive in lower and higher temperatures.
Is this true?
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22282678 - 09/24/15 08:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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No that's kinda silly. You're just being impatient about spore germination. 70 is fine.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22282690 - 09/24/15 08:59 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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No don't take this as being impatient, that would be silly in itself.
Its the thought here I was questioning, not time.
Because seeds will act that way. Thank you for the info
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22282696 - 09/24/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I suppose it's possible a little heat could help penetrate the spores, but the negativity that comes along with that usually outweighs it.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22282708 - 09/24/15 09:04 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm giving them a slight temp raise.
As I noticed my temperture being slightly lower than I want at this stage, 68. So I'm bringing it up to the low 70's for a while.
I usually fruit at 65-70 and colonize at 68-75 and I don't get many contams at fruit stage, and so far have gotten long life out of myc
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22283394 - 09/24/15 11:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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you trying on grains this time? lol
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bodhisatta 
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283457 - 09/24/15 11:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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If anything I would colonize at 65-70 and fruit at 68-75. You got them backwards there
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: bodhisatta]
#22283468 - 09/24/15 11:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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wait, what ?
this is cubensis, right ?
colonize at 80-85F and fruit at 70-75F
i'm sure they will germinate regardless but it will be sloooow at 70F
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283474 - 09/24/15 11:47 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Been readin that stamets, I'm telling you man.. 80-85, + another 5 to account for the internal heat, and that shit is simply too warm.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283483 - 09/24/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Staments was wrong 30 years ago when he said 80s were good. I would never colonize warmer than 75. 81-83 is the upper limit above that growth goes slower than it does at 75. But even still I vastly prefer 68-72 to 75 for colonization
Staments also said colonization in the dark was better decades ago. He and everyone else has been trying to get that out of peoples heads ever since
Its not slow even at 66
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (09/24/15 11:51 AM)
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283492 - 09/24/15 11:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Been readin that stamets, I'm telling you man.. 80-85, + another 5 to account for the internal heat, and that shit is simply too warm.
not according to stamets :V
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283502 - 09/24/15 11:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly my point.
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: bodhisatta]
#22283506 - 09/24/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Staments was wrong 30 years ago when he said 80s were good. I would never colonize warmer than 75. 81-83 is the upper limit above that growth goes slower than it does at 75. But even still I vastly prefer 68-72 to 75 for colonization
Staments also said colonization in the dark was better decades ago. He and everyone else has been trying to get that out of peoples heads ever since
Its not slow even at 66
why would you want that
not only do you have to wait longer but you are giving contaminants more chance to grow
best to colonize as quickly as possible, which happens at ~85F
edit: also, i can't imagine this helps fruiting at all
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: bodhisatta]
#22283560 - 09/24/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Staments was wrong 30 years ago when he said 80s were good. I would never colonize warmer than 75. 81-83 is the upper limit above that growth goes slower than it does at 75. But even still I vastly prefer 68-72 to 75 for colonization
Staments also said colonization in the dark was better decades ago. He and everyone else has been trying to get that out of peoples heads ever since
Its not slow even at 66
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283610 - 09/24/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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 Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Staments was wrong 30 years ago when he said 80s were good. I would never colonize warmer than 75. 81-83 is the upper limit above that growth goes slower than it does at 75. But even still I vastly prefer 68-72 to 75 for colonization
Staments also said colonization in the dark was better decades ago. He and everyone else has been trying to get that out of peoples heads ever since
Its not slow even at 66


Getting the cubes to colonize one day quicker won't make a lick of difference when you've increased the speed of everything else by 2-3x. Reliability is more important than speed, especially when that speed comes at the cost of assisting competitors.
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283612 - 09/24/15 12:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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as in, it doesn't colonize quicker at 80-85 ???
or as in that is not optimal for some reason
it definitely colonizes quicker at 80-85
this will give a better fluctuation in temperature when fruiting
no reason to re-invent the wheel but i'm curious what people think this "helps"
i have grown them at 70-75, then fruited and it took a lot longer
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283634 - 09/24/15 12:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Getting the cubes to colonize one day quicker won't make a lick of difference when you've increased the speed of everything else by 2-3x. Reliability is more important than speed, especially when that speed comes at the cost of assisting competitors.
what is 'everything else' ?
oh, you mean contaminants
everything grows best at a certain temperature, not necessarily the same
you are assisting competitors when you do not have optimal growth conditions
if mycelium grows as fast as possible, it narrows the window of opportunity for competitors
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283641 - 09/24/15 12:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: you are assisting competitors when you do not have optimal growth conditions
if mycelium grows as fast as possible, it narrows the window of opportunity for competitors
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283651 - 09/24/15 12:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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... great retort :V
how do mushrooms work?
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283667 - 09/24/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have had brf jars colonize in 2-3 weeks at 65-70. It actually gives mycelium the upper hand vs contains which thrive at higher temps.
I have not had colonization speed problems at 65-70, although I have not done as many projects or direct experiments as others.
Cronicr I'm doing Whole Wheat pf tek jars. 10 on cubes. 10 on pan cyans
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Inocuole
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283676 - 09/24/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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That wasn't a retort, I'm just done with the discussion, I'm not interested in changing your mind if you want to stick with what you know.
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283710 - 09/24/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its gettin real in here 
Inocuole is like
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22283754 - 09/24/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MajickMuffin said: I have had brf jars colonize in 2-3 weeks at 65-70.
I have had bags with 1-2L of substrate (rice) colonize in a week.
Of course, those were outliers and I was breaking it apart and mixing it at 10%
2-3 weeks sounds about average so this wouldn't surprise me even at that temp.
How long did fruiting it take?
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283779 - 09/24/15 12:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: That wasn't a retort, I'm just done with the discussion, I'm not interested in changing your mind if you want to stick with what you know.
I'd just like facts or evidence to back it up.
No, I'm not going to change my mind without that.
Why would I? 
I understand why you would think it curbs other growth as lots of fungi grow well at that temp but some contaminants grow best at lower temps, as well, such as rhizopus, mucor moulds and yeast.
So, tell me... What am I missing? :V
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MajickMuffin
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283784 - 09/24/15 12:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sometimes 1 week in fruiting conditions before pins, sometimes 2.
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283792 - 09/24/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said:
Quote:
Inocuole said: That wasn't a retort, I'm just done with the discussion, I'm not interested in changing your mind if you want to stick with what you know.
I'd just like facts or evidence to back it up.
No, I'm not going to change my mind without that.
Why would I? 
I understand why you would think it curbs other growth as lots of fungi grow well at that temp but some contaminants grow best at lower temps, as well, such as rhizopus, mucor moulds and yeast.
So, tell me... What am I missing? :V
The tests have been done over and over https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13239782#13239782
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22283796 - 09/24/15 12:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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so it doesn't sound like it effects fruiting that much
i was just curious
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stareatclouds
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Inocuole]
#22283808 - 09/24/15 12:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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micro,
Let's say current cultivators and mycologists say 70-75F colonization temps will have a jar completed in 5 days. And 70-75F is not optimal growth for bacteria and other contaminants.
Now let's outdated cultivation guides from 30 years ago say 75-85F colonization temps will have a jar completed in 3 days. But that's optimal temperatures for bacteria and other contaminants.
Which do you choose?
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283855 - 09/24/15 01:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
My own tests on petri dishes at controlled temperature showed growth was completely flat between 75F and 81F and then began to fall rapidly at 83F and above.
hmm...
mycelium in a petri dish causing excessive heat ???
also what happened to 81-83
i will probably repeat this once i'm in my new place
there is no data and also no method posted but i can hardly believe there would be *no* diff
ime, it was slower at RT, I am sure of that... but i don't know the exact temp
substrate temp is easy enough to get with an IR thermometer
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: stareatclouds]
#22283872 - 09/24/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
stareatclouds said: micro,
Let's say current cultivators and mycologists say 70-75F colonization temps will have a jar completed in 5 days. And 70-75F is not optimal growth for bacteria and other contaminants.
Now let's outdated cultivation guides from 30 years ago say 75-85F colonization temps will have a jar completed in 3 days. But that's optimal temperatures for bacteria and other contaminants.
Which do you choose?
I'd choose to question them because I have seen different, and that is empirical evidence.
I'd also want to know how they came to that conclusion since I already stated *which* contaminants do.
It's better than "I said so."
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283904 - 09/24/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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substrate temp wouldnt' matter much the myc is done growing and they fruit great well into the 90's, dig around you will see paul took those numbers back as the numbers in the book were not even from his own experience
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283910 - 09/24/15 01:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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this was discussing colonization temps, not fruiting
at least, that's what i got from spore germination
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283914 - 09/24/15 01:17 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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ahhh i see i see
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bodhisatta 
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283918 - 09/24/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Exactly if you're going to rely on Paul's info at the very least listen to him say his own old info is bad info.
Fruiting is fine from 65-100f depending on how you want the fruits to look
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: bodhisatta]
#22283925 - 09/24/15 01:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Exactly if you're going to rely on Paul's info at the very least listen to him say his own old info is bad info.
where?
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22283941 - 09/24/15 01:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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We have a pretty kick ass search engine here.....
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22283985 - 09/24/15 01:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: We have a pretty kick ass search engine here.....
Doesn't help if you are claiming your own information is outdated :V
Also, I searched but there's tons of irrelevant info.
Is it difficult to mention where he states that?
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cronicr



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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22284006 - 09/24/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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all his seminars where he also takes back incubating in the dark and all the other false info fromhis books
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micro
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: cronicr]
#22284033 - 09/24/15 01:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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all of them ???
i'm wtching this one atm:
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MajickMuffin
Edible Cult


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22286084 - 09/24/15 09:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: all of them ???
i'm wtching this one atm:
I known that his old info is bad info since I first began in this hobby man...even if you cant find proof take their word for it. Seriously
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Kalistis


Registered: 09/06/15
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: MajickMuffin]
#22286264 - 09/24/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I feel like I am watching a game of ping pong when I read some of these threads. The great thing about mycology is that the more we experiment with it, the more we will discover. This is the case with all of the sciences and its the main reason I love them so...In veterinary medicine, especially avian medicine, opinions have changed dramatically by leaps and bounds as we have discovered new diseases, testing techniques, husbandry, and nutritional requirements for the animals we care for. In the last 15 years, we have gone from recommending exclusively seed diets to birds to now knowing that those fed solely seed diets actually suffer from cardiac disease and even gout! We have also discovered that certain breeding has influenced husbandry and nutritional requirements. That a wild caught parrot will surely have much different nutritional needs than one selectively bred over multiple generations. Who says this couldn't possibly apply to realm of mycology? Here we are selecting for traits based on appearance, but what we may not know is how that influences that strains ability to germinate of fruit at different temps?
So yes journals out-date rapidly... and I see forums as a form of peer review. So...game on!
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saintburger
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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: Kalistis]
#22286363 - 09/24/15 10:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- Set goals for yourself, or wander around aimlessly. "One day Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a Cheshsire cat in a tree. 'Which road do I take?' she asked. 'Where do you want to go?' was his response 'I don't know', Alice answered. 'Then', said the cat, 'it doesn't matter.'"
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blackout


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Re: a certain temperature needs to be reaxhed to trigger spores to germinate? [Re: micro]
#22288545 - 09/25/15 01:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
micro said: not according to stamets :V

That says substrate temp, its not an incubation temperature recommendation. Many misquote him as saying that. I do find it colonises faster in warmer temps but not worth the risk.
Quote:
micro said: So, tell me... What am I missing? :V
Like many I guess you have not read all the book, and just focused on the cubensis bit. In other sections he specifically warns about heat generation while colonising. At least you are not bad mouthing him and putting words in his mouth, saying he recommends incubating at 86F.
Quote:
micro said: substrate temp is easy enough to get with an IR thermometer
All the IR thermemoters I ever used were totally shit, I have used several brands including fluke. I do think the temp rise is hugely overestimated. At higher temps growth will be faster and so expect more heat. Some talk as though its a fixed increase of say 5F, at 65F growth will be slower than at say 82F, and so you can expect less of a heat rise.
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