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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
    #22302092 - 09/28/15 10:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bennylava said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

bennylava said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
We the people control the government, at the end of the day. The government doesn't have any power without societies consent or apathy/willful ignorance/disinterest.




That means nothing if I have an actual grievance with the government. That's one thing I can never get liberals to understand. For some reason, they just can't fathom it. Probably because they actually look up to the government, in an almost worshipful way. Instead of looking at it as the disease that it is. I agree with the founding fathers who said "Government is an evil, albeit a necessary evil".

Your argument suggests that no one would ever have a legitimate problem with the government, that needed to be sorted out. Which of course, happens all day every day in the real world.




Your quote was actually a paraphrasing of something Thomas Paine said. You have to understand that the founding fathers were not one person, but a composition of people with vastly different views from one another on a variety of issues. You can't say 'they said this or that' unless it is something that was agreed upon formally by all of them. The constitution is an example of that, as they all formally agreed when they signed it. The constitution, however, was also a compromise, and not everything in it was agreed upon by all persons present.

How did I suggest nobody would ever have a legitimate problem with government?

I get that you want to dictate where every single dollar of your tax money goes, but that is not sensible or practical. We decide collectively, as a society, where our money goes, to one extent or another.

By the way, I don't 'worship government'. I see it as a tool, that has been misused for a long time. If someone uses a hammer to beat their wife for 20 years, does that make the hammer bad? Fuck no. I can still drive nails with it perfectly fine!




I never said you were a liberal, nor did I say my ideology was somehow superior, like the other guy said. Didn't say either one. I simply said the government can't be trusted, and the constitution certainly reflects that. Notice their constant attempts to circumvent it. I should get to dictate where my tax dollars go, in the event that nothing they're being used for, applies to me. Such as the public schools. Now if we're talking about the military, or public roads, or the fire dept, etc etc, then yeah obviously I believe in taxes. See that all makes sense. Perfect sense. Me paying for some old woman I'll never know to have some kind of surgery, or paying for other people's kids to go to school... not so much. Am I fleecing them for things that I believe I should have, that they make no use of? See it works both ways.

I also believe in a flat tax, which would permanently put this whole argument to rest. Bureaucratic inefficiencies and government waste exists, whether you want to admit it or not. And I want a complete stop put to it. Take all that waste, and put that towards modern solutions, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation, cause there wouldn't be any need to. But hey, forget all that logic and stuff, right? Give 'em more money and more power! I'm sure they'll do better for some reason, this time.




"I also believe in a flat tax"

Why should someone that makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year?  That makes no sense.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: ballsalsa]
    #22302480 - 09/28/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
thats one tough old lady to take 20 years of brutal hammer beatings




I imported her from Germany. They make everything better. :-|


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
    #22302515 - 09/28/15 12:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bennylava said:
I never said you were a liberal, nor did I say my ideology was somehow superior, like the other guy said. Didn't say either one. I simply said the government can't be trusted, and the constitution certainly reflects that. Notice their constant attempts to circumvent it. I should get to dictate where my tax dollars go, in the event that nothing they're being used for, applies to me. Such as the public schools. Now if we're talking about the military, or public roads, or the fire dept, etc etc, then yeah obviously I believe in taxes. See that all makes sense. Perfect sense. Me paying for some old woman I'll never know to have some kind of surgery, or paying for other people's kids to go to school... not so much. Am I fleecing them for things that I believe I should have, that they make no use of? See it works both ways.

I also believe in a flat tax, which would permanently put this whole argument to rest. Bureaucratic inefficiencies and government waste exists, whether you want to admit it or not. And I want a complete stop put to it. Take all that waste, and put that towards modern solutions, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation, cause there wouldn't be any need to. But hey, forget all that logic and stuff, right? Give 'em more money and more power! I'm sure they'll do better for some reason, this time.




I consider myself a Liberal, so you don't have to call me that.

Paying for the public education of someone else's kid is actually quite worthwhile for you. When that kid goes on to be an educated, productive member of society, and creates wealth in the American economy, we all benefit. Trust me, if we lived in a society without public education, and we had uneducated redneck assholes running around ruining everything, and voting, you'd beg for it.

As far as government waste, nobody would deny that. I think the majority of government waste is due to corruption, and it is intentional. Government could function with little waste if there was an incentive to do so. In my opinion, our campaign finance system plays a big role here. Thankfully we have guys like Bernie Sanders, who want to reform campaign financing methods.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: qman]
    #22302521 - 09/28/15 12:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"I also believe in a flat tax"

Why should someone that makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year?  That makes no sense.




Agreed. A flat tax sounds nice, and we do need tax regulation reformation, but that is not the way to go. Originally, income taxes were only meant for people with passive incomes, such as landlords, and people receiving capital gains. Now capital gains taxes are lower than income taxes, and everything is upside-down.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22302529 - 09/28/15 12:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
"I also believe in a flat tax"

Why should someone that makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year?  That makes no sense.




Agreed. A flat tax sounds nice, and we do need tax regulation reformation, but that is not the way to go. Originally, income taxes were only meant for people with passive incomes, such as landlords, and people receiving capital gains. Now capital gains taxes are lower than income taxes, and everything is upside-down.




Also, corporate taxes make up far less of the pie that is federal revenue.

1952: 33%
Today: 9%


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22302537 - 09/28/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22302544 - 09/28/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

bennylava said:
I never said you were a liberal, nor did I say my ideology was somehow superior, like the other guy said. Didn't say either one. I simply said the government can't be trusted, and the constitution certainly reflects that. Notice their constant attempts to circumvent it. I should get to dictate where my tax dollars go, in the event that nothing they're being used for, applies to me. Such as the public schools. Now if we're talking about the military, or public roads, or the fire dept, etc etc, then yeah obviously I believe in taxes. See that all makes sense. Perfect sense. Me paying for some old woman I'll never know to have some kind of surgery, or paying for other people's kids to go to school... not so much. Am I fleecing them for things that I believe I should have, that they make no use of? See it works both ways.

I also believe in a flat tax, which would permanently put this whole argument to rest. Bureaucratic inefficiencies and government waste exists, whether you want to admit it or not. And I want a complete stop put to it. Take all that waste, and put that towards modern solutions, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation, cause there wouldn't be any need to. But hey, forget all that logic and stuff, right? Give 'em more money and more power! I'm sure they'll do better for some reason, this time.




I consider myself a Liberal, so you don't have to call me that.

Paying for the public education of someone else's kid is actually quite worthwhile for you. When that kid goes on to be an educated, productive member of society, and creates wealth in the American economy, we all benefit. Trust me, if we lived in a society without public education, and we had uneducated redneck assholes running around ruining everything, and voting, you'd beg for it.

As far as government waste, nobody would deny that. I think the majority of government waste is due to corruption, and it is intentional. Government could function with little waste if there was an incentive to do so. In my opinion, our campaign finance system plays a big role here. Thankfully we have guys like Bernie Sanders, who want to reform campaign financing methods.




"Paying for the public education of someone else's kid is actually quite worthwhile for you"

You don't know that, many times the money is pissed away on students that have no interest in becoming productive members of society.

What's wrong with having a basic limited education and then contributing by working in a factory or any blue collar job? 

"uneducated redneck assholes"

So "rednecks" are the only uneducated assholes in the US?  Sounds like a racist statement, what demographic suffers the worst in education?  It isn't whites.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #22303070 - 09/28/15 02:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Did you go to public school?  Did others pay for you to go?  Do you benefit from living in an educated society?




Do you believe that is the federal govt doesn't do it, it won't get done?

Did you know that before the '70s, there was no federal department of education?

Kids still went to school, the fact is the federal govt has no business in education, it's a states issue...




You can claim it as a fact, but that doesn't make it one.

I could easily say the federal government has no business deciding if slavery is legal, it should be up to the states. How'd that turn out?




So you're equating public education to slavery... Okay then


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22303085 - 09/28/15 02:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:



Why should someone that makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year?  That makes no sense.




Sure it does, they would pay the same rate, not the same amount...

And if "equal protection under the law" meant anything at all, this would already be the case...


--------------------
http://www.countdowntotrump.com





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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22303194 - 09/28/15 02:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:



Why should someone that makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year?  That makes no sense.




Sure it does, they would pay the same rate, not the same amount...

And if "equal protection under the law" meant anything at all, this would already be the case...




I wouldn't mind if the tax rate was the same IF there wasn't so much economic inequality taking place today.

We have flat wages due to globalization and illegal immigration, labor suffers as companies benefit, that doesn't create a good distribution of wealth and income.

Is the access of capital available to everyone?  No, therefore rates of taxation can't be the same.

"equal protection under the law"

I think we know who gets the protection of the law today, it's the interests that can afford to lobby for it.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: qman] * 1
    #22304274 - 09/28/15 06:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


I wouldn't mind if the tax rate was the same IF there wasn't so much economic inequality taking place today




We've had a progressive tax for almost a hundred years, how's that income inequality doing?

Quote:

pWe have flat wages due to globalization and illegal immigration, labor suffers as companies benefit, that doesn't create a good distribution of wealth and income.




Doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that I work upwards of 80 hours a week away from my family while joeschmoe gets his weekends off and is home every night AND gets a lower tax rate, how the fuck is that "fair"?

Quote:


Is the access of capital available to everyone?  No, therefore rates of taxation can't be the same




Completely irrelevant, are you talking about investment money? You really think that some guy on the street should have access to the same capital as... Oh, say, Donald Trump? Seriously, that doesn't even make sense...


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22304890 - 09/28/15 08:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:


I wouldn't mind if the tax rate was the same IF there wasn't so much economic inequality taking place today




We've had a progressive tax for almost a hundred years, how's that income inequality doing?

Quote:

pWe have flat wages due to globalization and illegal immigration, labor suffers as companies benefit, that doesn't create a good distribution of wealth and income.




Doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that I work upwards of 80 hours a week away from my family while joeschmoe gets his weekends off and is home every night AND gets a lower tax rate, how the fuck is that "fair"?

Quote:


Is the access of capital available to everyone?  No, therefore rates of taxation can't be the same




Completely irrelevant, are you talking about investment money? You really think that some guy on the street should have access to the same capital as... Oh, say, Donald Trump? Seriously, that doesn't even make sense...




A progressive tax rate worked well until quite recently, going to a flat tax for everyone would only increase the current economic disparity. You don't think that a progressive tax rate is responsible for the current wealth and income inequality, do you?

The fact that you work a lot of hours to increase your pay check as NOTHING to do with the discussion, we are talking about the tax rates on the top 1% or really the .10th of 1%.

The access of capital is a key component for a capitalistic economy, once the access is only available to the corporate entities, you have corrupted and limited the ability to create business opportunities. BTW, just 30-35 years ago my father and 3 other people (who worked regular corporate jobs) had the ability to walk into a bank and have access to over $5 million dollars to acquire various real estate income properties with no money down, times have changed.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22304987 - 09/28/15 08:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
Did you go to public school?  Did others pay for you to go?  Do you benefit from living in an educated society?




Do you believe that is the federal govt doesn't do it, it won't get done?

Did you know that before the '70s, there was no federal department of education?

Kids still went to school, the fact is the federal govt has no business in education, it's a states issue...




You can claim it as a fact, but that doesn't make it one.

I could easily say the federal government has no business deciding if slavery is legal, it should be up to the states. How'd that turn out?





So you're equating public education to slavery... Okay then




Can you make just one post without a non sequitur?

The point is just because you say it should be up to the states doesnt make your opinion worth that of 5 Supreme Court justices.


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Offlinebennylava
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #22306577 - 09/29/15 04:50 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

bennylava said:
I never said you were a liberal, nor did I say my ideology was somehow superior, like the other guy said. Didn't say either one. I simply said the government can't be trusted, and the constitution certainly reflects that. Notice their constant attempts to circumvent it. I should get to dictate where my tax dollars go, in the event that nothing they're being used for, applies to me. Such as the public schools. Now if we're talking about the military, or public roads, or the fire dept, etc etc, then yeah obviously I believe in taxes. See that all makes sense. Perfect sense. Me paying for some old woman I'll never know to have some kind of surgery, or paying for other people's kids to go to school... not so much. Am I fleecing them for things that I believe I should have, that they make no use of? See it works both ways.

I also believe in a flat tax, which would permanently put this whole argument to rest. Bureaucratic inefficiencies and government waste exists, whether you want to admit it or not. And I want a complete stop put to it. Take all that waste, and put that towards modern solutions, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation, cause there wouldn't be any need to. But hey, forget all that logic and stuff, right? Give 'em more money and more power! I'm sure they'll do better for some reason, this time.




I consider myself a Liberal, so you don't have to call me that.

Paying for the public education of someone else's kid is actually quite worthwhile for you. When that kid goes on to be an educated, productive member of society, and creates wealth in the American economy, we all benefit. Trust me, if we lived in a society without public education, and we had uneducated redneck assholes running around ruining everything, and voting, you'd beg for it.





Actually no, its not. Not even in the slightest. Are you the least bit familiar with the piss poor state of our education system? Have you ever even heard of a giant topic called "education reform"? So no, no, and no. None of what you said has anything to do with reality. Not even a little bit.

Not to mention that even if what you said were true, my plan totally defeats it and makes it all completely unnecessary. All schools being private, with state inspectors to check in once in awhile just to make sure standards are being upheld, is the answer to all our education woes. When it comes to pre-college. Private schools are proven to offer a far better education than the pitiful public school system, and on top of that, no one who didn't have any kids would pay. Because everyone who had kids, would pay the private school. Its all very simple. So the kids would be getting a much better education, be getting way more 1 on 1 time with the educators, and nobody would be paying into the corrupt state where they waste the money anyway. Cause that's what they do. They waste. Remember the lottery? "Its for the children! Its for the children! Please, oh please, you have to let us do this, cause its for the children!" Where is all the money going now? What happened? The lottery rakes in billions, yet somehow, some way, they still need "land taxes" because originally, that too was "for the children!!" Fuck that. Fuck them all. Lies on lies, that stretch from here to the moon. No more.

Again, see my post office reference, for reference. Its just how they roll, man. You thinking they could somehow ever be efficient is just a laugh riot.


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
    #22306656 - 09/29/15 05:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bennylava said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

bennylava said:
I never said you were a liberal, nor did I say my ideology was somehow superior, like the other guy said. Didn't say either one. I simply said the government can't be trusted, and the constitution certainly reflects that. Notice their constant attempts to circumvent it. I should get to dictate where my tax dollars go, in the event that nothing they're being used for, applies to me. Such as the public schools. Now if we're talking about the military, or public roads, or the fire dept, etc etc, then yeah obviously I believe in taxes. See that all makes sense. Perfect sense. Me paying for some old woman I'll never know to have some kind of surgery, or paying for other people's kids to go to school... not so much. Am I fleecing them for things that I believe I should have, that they make no use of? See it works both ways.

I also believe in a flat tax, which would permanently put this whole argument to rest. Bureaucratic inefficiencies and government waste exists, whether you want to admit it or not. And I want a complete stop put to it. Take all that waste, and put that towards modern solutions, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation, cause there wouldn't be any need to. But hey, forget all that logic and stuff, right? Give 'em more money and more power! I'm sure they'll do better for some reason, this time.




I consider myself a Liberal, so you don't have to call me that.

Paying for the public education of someone else's kid is actually quite worthwhile for you. When that kid goes on to be an educated, productive member of society, and creates wealth in the American economy, we all benefit. Trust me, if we lived in a society without public education, and we had uneducated redneck assholes running around ruining everything, and voting, you'd beg for it.





Actually no, its not. Not even in the slightest. Are you the least bit familiar with the piss poor state of our education system? Have you ever even heard of a giant topic called "education reform"? So no, no, and no. None of what you said has anything to do with reality. Not even a little bit.

Not to mention that even if what you said were true, my plan totally defeats it and makes it all completely unnecessary. All schools being private, with state inspectors to check in once in awhile just to make sure standards are being upheld, is the answer to all our education woes. When it comes to pre-college. Private schools are proven to offer a far better education than the pitiful public school system, and on top of that, no one who didn't have any kids would pay. Because everyone who had kids, would pay the private school. Its all very simple. So the kids would be getting a much better education, be getting way more 1 on 1 time with the educators, and nobody would be paying into the corrupt state where they waste the money anyway. Cause that's what they do. They waste. Remember the lottery? "Its for the children! Its for the children! Please, oh please, you have to let us do this, cause its for the children!" Where is all the money going now? What happened? The lottery rakes in billions, yet somehow, some way, they still need "land taxes" because originally, that too was "for the children!!" Fuck that. Fuck them all. Lies on lies, that stretch from here to the moon. No more.

Again, see my post office reference, for reference. Its just how they roll, man. You thinking they could somehow ever be efficient is just a laugh riot.


:highfive:


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
    #22306774 - 09/29/15 06:25 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The post office is efficient.

Charter schools have been ruled unconstitutional in Washington.  Public funds going to entities the public has no say in.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: paperbackwriter] * 1
    #22306816 - 09/29/15 06:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

paperbackwriter said:
The post office is efficient.









:lolsy::lolsy:  Good one!


--------------------


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Invisiblepaperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
Re: Capitalism at work [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #22306859 - 09/29/15 07:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Consistently delivering mail in a 2 to 3 day window and competing with fed ex and ups is efficient.

The only thing they struggle with is prefunding retirement.  Something they didn't have to do prior to 2006.

https://about.usps.com/news/national-releases/2014/pr14_059.htm

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432

There's plenty of examples of inefficiency in the Federal government but the post office isn't one of them.


--------------------
Why should we strive with cynic frown
To knock their fairy castles down?  ~ Eliza Cook

It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: paperbackwriter]
    #22306991 - 09/29/15 07:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


The fact that you work a lot of hours to increase your pay check as NOTHING to do with the discussion, we are talking about the tax rates on the top 1% or really the .10th of 1%.




Lol, what? The progressive tax rate effects every American, not just the top, the idea you think it don't is very telling of your knowledge on taxes...

Quote:

Can you make just one post without a non sequitur?




You're the one who compared it to slavery, or did you forget?:rolleyes:


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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22307121 - 09/29/15 08:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:


The fact that you work a lot of hours to increase your pay check as NOTHING to do with the discussion, we are talking about the tax rates on the top 1% or really the .10th of 1%.




Lol, what? The progressive tax rate effects every American, not just the top, the idea you think it don't is very telling of your knowledge on taxes...





"The progressive tax rate effects every American"

I'm fully aware of that fact.

"is very telling of your knowledge on taxes"

My original post on the subject matter posed the question, why should someone who makes $30,000 per year pay the same rate as someone who makes $20,000,000 per year.


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