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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22353492 - 10/09/15 07:34 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: And they'll never be. Letting vote themselves to the top of their pay grade doesn't improve profit margins.
The model I'm talking about Germany has implemented and this doesn't happen. If anything we see CEOs doing this in the U.S.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 12 minutes, 33 seconds
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22353729 - 10/09/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
I didn't say 5000X lmao! God damn dude. 
The CEO of Lockheed Martin makes roughly $30 million. $80,000 x 200 = $16,000,000. Apparently your buddy wasn't worth shit compared to her! lmao! She makes 400X that amount.
Now, you can clearly see that I am far more intelligent and educated than you. If you think that I am a cashier, you must be an unemployed bum! 
Did you miss my point about how effective worker councils are in Germany at boosting profits and raising morale?
What was it you said then, was it a percentage? Oh I'm so sorry, I placed an "X" where I should have placed a "%". You really think those german companies can compete with the titanic profits of many other companies around the world? NONE of whom share their opinions on giving workers some kind of say in how the company runs. Yeah you probably think that. You probably think they're as profitable.
And they'll never be. Letting vote themselves to the top of their pay grade (much like labor unions that go beyond even that) doesn't improve profit margins.
Lastly, I can tell you're a clerk, by you getting all defensive. Go to college and you won't have to bellyache about your situation and that you don't have control over your job.
Germany has the 4th highest GDP of any country in the world! 
http://statisticstimes.com/economy/world-gdp-ranking.php
You just fucking say shit, as if your word makes it fact. Germany is the most powerful economy in Europe, dude. So yeah, they can compete! lol!
By the way, you didn't address it, but I want to make sure that you saw how wrong you were about your buddy at Lockheed Martin. The CEO makes 400X the rate he was paid. Yes, I had put %. There is a huge difference between % and X. X changes these numbers by a factor of 100 lol! However, given that the CEO of Lockheed Martin makes 400X what your friend makes, I suppose I should have put 40,000%.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/09/15 09:13 AM)
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Oh yes thank you for pointing that out. I neglected to address that. To clarify, it wasn't my buddy. It was my buddy's dad, who is now retired. He made $83k, his own words. I hate to break it to you, and I know this hurts, but that's standard engineer pay for his section. Period. Across the board. And he was close to the pay cap. I can see you think he should have been making something like double that amount, but he just wasn't worth that. While they may not be coming out of the woodwork, there are other engineers in the world, who would be glad to have his job for that pay. Hate to tell ya.
Now onto the german companies you keep citing.
1. You are aware that those companies don't practice your wonderful example, when they are operating in other countries, right? Look it up. Google is right there. When they can, they don't do it. Now why do you think that is? If its so great, wouldn't they want to spread that everywhere? You'll notice that 3 of them operating in the U.S, don't do this. Hmm... probably because its a lot less profitable to pay people more than they're worth, and they don't do it when they're not made to.
2. 4th place isn't first place. They're still beat quite handily, by companies who do NOT practice this type of workplace. So there's proof. If it was as great as you're touting, they'd be first. But no, they're not. They're 4rth. And the 1rst place slot goes to... drumroll... standard companies practicing the traditional model. Surprise surprise surprise.
Lastly, when it comes to spouting shit, I don't hold a candle to you. I can back up the things I say, can you?
http://www.metiseurope.eu/content/pdf/allemagne/2_german_model_et_multinationales.pdf
Oh and I'm still waiting to hear what your job is. Its becoming increasingly likely, that you don't even have one. Perhaps grocery clerk was giving you too much credit.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 12 minutes, 33 seconds
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22353994 - 10/09/15 10:08 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: Oh yes thank you for pointing that out. I neglected to address that. To clarify, it wasn't my buddy. It was my buddy's dad, who is now retired. He made $83k, his own words. I hate to break it to you, and I know this hurts, but that's standard engineer pay for his section. Period. Across the board. And he was close to the pay cap. I can see you think he should have been making something like double that amount, but he just wasn't worth that. While they may not be coming out of the woodwork, there are other engineers in the world, who would be glad to have his job for that pay. Hate to tell ya.
Now onto the german companies you keep citing.
1. You are aware that those companies don't practice your wonderful example, when they are operating in other countries, right? Look it up. Google is right there. When they can, they don't do it. Now why do you think that is? If its so great, wouldn't they want to spread that everywhere? You'll notice that 3 of them operating in the U.S, don't do this. Hmm... probably because its a lot less profitable to pay people more than they're worth, and they don't do it when they're not forced to.
2. 4th place isn't first place. They're still beat quite handily, by companies who do NOT practice this type of workplace. So there's proof. If it was as great as you're touting, they'd be first.
    
"4th place isn't 1st place" really?.. Jesus Christ dude. You realize there are other factors involved in an economy. One of those factors is population size. All of the countries with higher GDP have double or more the population. America and China have more land and natural resources by far, also.
Quote:
But no, they're not. They're 4rth. And the 1rst place slot goes to... drumroll... standard companies practicing the traditional model. Surprise surprise surprise.
(It's 4th and 1st, not 4rth and 1rst, just fyi ;-) )
When we say 4th place, we're talking about COUNTRIES, not companies! lmao!!!
Anyways, I am not going to read through a 16 page link you posted, especially when you have a history of posting unrelated articles that don't back your position. If something in there does back your position, please quote it. ;-)
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/09/15 10:09 AM)
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
bennylava said: Oh yes thank you for pointing that out. I neglected to address that. To clarify, it wasn't my buddy. It was my buddy's dad, who is now retired. He made $83k, his own words. I hate to break it to you, and I know this hurts, but that's standard engineer pay for his section. Period. Across the board. And he was close to the pay cap. I can see you think he should have been making something like double that amount, but he just wasn't worth that. While they may not be coming out of the woodwork, there are other engineers in the world, who would be glad to have his job for that pay. Hate to tell ya.
Now onto the german companies you keep citing.
1. You are aware that those companies don't practice your wonderful example, when they are operating in other countries, right? Look it up. Google is right there. When they can, they don't do it. Now why do you think that is? If its so great, wouldn't they want to spread that everywhere? You'll notice that 3 of them operating in the U.S, don't do this. Hmm... probably because its a lot less profitable to pay people more than they're worth, and they don't do it when they're not forced to.
2. 4th place isn't first place. They're still beat quite handily, by companies who do NOT practice this type of workplace. So there's proof. If it was as great as you're touting, they'd be first.
    
"4th place isn't 1st place" really?.. Jesus Christ dude. You realize there are other factors involved in an economy. One of those factors is population size. All of the countries with higher GDP have double or more the population. America and China have more land and natural resources by far, also.
Quote:
But no, they're not. They're 4rth. And the 1rst place slot goes to... drumroll... standard companies practicing the traditional model. Surprise surprise surprise.
(It's 4th and 1st, not 4rth and 1rst, just fyi ;-) )
When we say 4th place, we're talking about COUNTRIES, not companies! lmao!!!
Anyways, I am not going to read through a 16 page link you posted, especially when you have a history of posting unrelated articles that don't back your position. If something in there does back your position, please quote it. ;-)
Derp, all my links have supported my position. I certainly wouldn't have bothered posting them otherwise. You being much too lazy to read them, isn't surprising. Not to mention the fact that a quick scroll through the very first page, is all you had to do. That laziness probably explains your low position which you refuse to talk about, as it would just ad further credence to what I'm saying. I do hope you don't think you're fooling anyone. But you probably do.
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22358168 - 10/10/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Economy: it's like voodoo, only less succesfull!
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Turtletotem said: Economy: it's like voodoo, only less succesfull!
Um, what? I don't get it...
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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recycled from the funnies thread
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Turtletotem said: Economy: it's like voodoo, only less succesfull!
Um, what? I don't get it...
Yeah, I saw from your posts that you don't.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Quote:
Turtletotem said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Turtletotem said: Economy: it's like voodoo, only less succesfull!
Um, what? I don't get it...
Yeah, I saw from your posts that you don't.
Oh I got ya, it's like high taxes create jobs and the rich get rich by stealing from the poor...
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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No its like the government getting bigger and bigger and incorporating more and more social programs. If that thing comes down, look out!!
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Turtletotem
Dutch Delight



Registered: 09/02/13
Posts: 3,763
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Turtletotem said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Turtletotem said: Economy: it's like voodoo, only less succesfull!
Um, what? I don't get it...
Yeah, I saw from your posts that you don't.
Oh I got ya, it's like high taxes create jobs and the rich get rich by stealing from the poor...
Nah it's like I can predict the economic forecast with more accuracy than the professionals by shaking my medicine stick and bird augories.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22358739 - 10/10/15 11:28 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I don't care what something is called in terms of ideology but IMO:
If the system requires that You have to get your 'rights' from the government, that if a government man says shit you have to squat, that everyone is equal except the class that rules--who don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else--that the ruling class can decide at any moment who is the winner and who is the loser; that it can change the rules of the game at any point in time for the benefit of itself; that the it must have a big giant teat extended for the masses to suckle on if they play by the rules then,
well, if that is the kind of system you like, go ahead and wear your studded dog collars and clown suits, and roll over and wag your tails and slobber and I'm sure they will keep throwing you scraps from the table, because somewhere someone has taken a turd, sprayed it with perfume and convinced you its a rose.
What I'm saying is this has nothing to do with ideology--this has to do with a big, centralized, controlling government having its way in the name of {Put the name of your utopian, ideal system here.)
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: I don't care what something is called in terms of ideology but IMO:
If the system requires that You have to get your 'rights' from the government, that if a government man says shit you have to squat, that everyone is equal except the class that rules--who don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else--that the ruling class can decide at any moment who is the winner and who is the loser; that it can change the rules of the game at any point in time for the benefit of itself; that the it must have a big giant teat extended for the masses to suckle on if they play by the rules then,
well, if that is the kind of system you like, go ahead and wear your studded dog collars and clown suits, and roll over and wag your tails and slobber and I'm sure they will keep throwing you scraps from the table, because somewhere someone has taken a turd, sprayed it with perfume and convinced you its a rose.
What I'm saying is this has nothing to do with ideology--this has to do with a big, centralized, controlling government having its way in the name of {Put the name of your utopian, ideal system here.)
I actually agree with you. And this is what pisses me off about arguing politics. A lot of you guys hear the word socialism and have no fucking clue what it is. In your minds it equals more government.
It's actually about bottom up action. Taking the means of production back from the ruling class through collective struggle and solidarity
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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That is what the Solidarity movment was about in Poland. But please note that they took back government with the goal of empowering the people. What i find so disingenious in the US is that the mainstream R and D, as well as the socialist democrats, think that taking back the government and then EMPOWERING THE GOVERNMENT by giving it more power to take peoples money and giving to themselves, is the solution.
Solidarity left out the part where the government gains more power and control money=power and power == control. this is why I can't vote for Bernie sanders and the 'Tax the wealthy' people. Because the more money the government gets, the more control it has.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 12 minutes, 33 seconds
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22359873 - 10/10/15 04:32 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: That laziness probably explains your low position which you refuse to talk about, as it would just ad further credence to what I'm saying.
This is probably the best example of an 'ad hominem' I've ever seen on these forums.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 12 minutes, 33 seconds
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22359883 - 10/10/15 04:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Oh I got ya, it's like high taxes create jobs and the rich get rich by stealing from the poor...
Quote:
bennylava said: No its like the government getting bigger and bigger and incorporating more and more social programs. If that thing comes down, look out!!
If you're both referring to balls' tower picture, it's clearly a metaphor for 'too big to fail', and the fact that we haven't broken up the banks, we've expanded them.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,338
Last seen: 12 minutes, 33 seconds
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I don't care what something is called in terms of ideology but IMO:
If the system requires that You have to get your 'rights' from the government, that if a government man says shit you have to squat, that everyone is equal except the class that rules--who don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else--that the ruling class can decide at any moment who is the winner and who is the loser; that it can change the rules of the game at any point in time for the benefit of itself; that the it must have a big giant teat extended for the masses to suckle on if they play by the rules then,
well, if that is the kind of system you like, go ahead and wear your studded dog collars and clown suits, and roll over and wag your tails and slobber and I'm sure they will keep throwing you scraps from the table, because somewhere someone has taken a turd, sprayed it with perfume and convinced you its a rose.
What I'm saying is this has nothing to do with ideology--this has to do with a big, centralized, controlling government having its way in the name of {Put the name of your utopian, ideal system here.)
I actually agree with you. And this is what pisses me off about arguing politics. A lot of you guys hear the word socialism and have no fucking clue what it is. In your minds it equals more government.
It's actually about bottom up action. Taking the means of production back from the ruling class through collective struggle and solidarity
Exactly. I don't define Socialism specifically as 'big government', and I don't like centralized power. I would like to see power, as starfire has often mentioned, decentralized and given back to the states.
Quote:
starfire_xes said: That is what the Solidarity movment was about in Poland. But please note that they took back government with the goal of empowering the people. What i find so disingenious in the US is that the mainstream R and D, as well as the socialist democrats, think that taking back the government and then EMPOWERING THE GOVERNMENT by giving it more power to take peoples money and giving to themselves, is the solution.
Solidarity left out the part where the government gains more power and control money=power and power == control. this is why I can't vote for Bernie sanders and the 'Tax the wealthy' people. Because the more money the government gets, the more control it has.
Bernie Sanders isn't a power hungry guy though, and when push comes to shove, he has more integrity than any other candidate. He also has a lot of nerve to run a campaign without a super PAC, and it's going incredibly well. Bernie has said that as president he will try to mobilize the people to fight for, and take back power.
I don't think this battle can be won through elections. A good leader is important, but the real battle must be fought on the ground floor. I think Bernie could facilitate real change.
I do agree with you that what we need is a grassroots solidarity movement, and not an expansion of the federal government. If that is what you were saying. I understand perfectly well your reason for not wanting to vote for Sanders also. He's a good guy, but I can relate to the opinion that government must not be expanded when it's already grown out of our control. Personally, I think Bernie would be great though, and I'm sure you can understand why.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:Taking the means of production back from the ruling class through collective struggle and solidarity
I'd like to see how you mean to do that, without involving the government and just giving them more and more power. Lets start with your idea on just the most basic level.
Employee says "Hey, this sucks. I'm paid less than I think I'm worth, and I don't have any benefits. Meanwhile, the people at the top, few though they may be, have everything. I'm gonna give them a piece of my mind!"
So the employee, arranges an appointment to see these people. As he is an employee, they accept and are willing to at least hear what he has to say. So he says:
"Hey! You guys need to change things! I want things to be different! I want things to favor us little guys more, and yeah, that would necessarily mean you guys less. But that's cool cause its only fair. So please change it now."
They then say:
"What? No! No way! We like it the way it is! If I give up some of this to you people, then I have to go from driving a new Bentley, to driving a new Lexus instead. I'll have to go from living in this awesome 10 bedroom house, to living in a 5 bedroom house. I'll have to lose all these things that I like having. I worked hard to get where I am, and you didn't even go to college! So no! Go fuck yourself!"
So the employee leaves, and goes back to his job. With no ability to affect change, cause the bosses said no. They like things the way they are.
Now you tell me, how your way is supposed to work, without involving the government, when the answer from the ones you have to ask, is "no".
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:This is probably the best example of an 'ad hominem' I've ever seen on these forums.
You keep saying that. I'm beginning to question whether you know what it means. If I'm attacking you personally, its to prove my point. And citing your job isn't an attack, by the way. I'm using it to disqualify you. Its a perfectly valid argument. If someone goes to a race track and say "Hey! Let me drive that racecar!" And they say "No! Fuck off! You don't have any driving school credentials at all!!" That wouldn't be some kind of "ad hominem". That's them saying he isn't qualified.
You're not qualified.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,855
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22360539 - 10/10/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Now you tell me, how your way is supposed to work, without involving the government, when the answer from the ones you have to ask, is "no".





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