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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22336691 - 10/05/15 12:11 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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bennylava said:
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paperbackwriter said:Every healthy system has corruption.
The exact same thing could be said about all the things you've been railing against. Namely capitalism. If all the "capitalists" were good people who genuinely cared about their fellow man, you and your kind wouldn't have a leg to stand on. You'd be pulled down with a vengeance by everyone with half a brain. So basically you just admitted that capitalism is fine. We just need to enforce the laws that are already one the books, and maybe add a few more, but that's it.
But the sobering truth is that everybody ISNT willing to care about their fellow man, which is why we need a system in place that doesn't exploit, and promote, the shortcomings of human nature.
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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paperbackwriter said:
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bennylava said:
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paperbackwriter said: You don't understand socialism bennylava. It's an economic system and can work independently of having a government at all. Some of the best examples of socialism in action are worker coops and labor unions.
Labor unions? More burdensome corruption.
Every healthy system has corruption.
The point I was making was that socialism and big government are not synonyms. Socialism is an economic system where the workers rather than capitalists control the means of production. Labor unions allow workers to have some say in capitalist business models. Worker coops allow socialist business models to coexist alongside capitalist ones.
Socialsim is an economic system where the STATE owns the means of production. Very different. I have no problem with coops and voluntary business structures like that, they can be very effective. However i highly disagree with a state enforced coercive system. Capitalism simply means that private individuals own the means to production, this doesnt necessarily mean a single individual either. Your local coop falls perfectly within the economic system of capitalism.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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There's coercion in capitalism no matter how you slice it.
You can either have the people control industry and have a say over their economy, or leave it up to the private business owners who, let's be honest, are unaccountable to the public.
If we could nationalize an industry and make its fruits more more attainable to everyone, what's the negative? It would be unfair to Adam Smith?
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Who exactly do you think private business owners are? I've been an owner of multiple business's over the coarse of my life. Roughly half of the national GPD is small business owners, people like you, me, your neighbors, etc. They are not some external force that exist outside of the normal public, they are the public.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Bigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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psyconaught said: Who exactly do you think private business owners are? I've been an owner of multiple business's over the coarse of my life. Roughly half of the national GPD is small business owners, people like you, me, your neighbors, etc. They are not some external force that exist outside of the normal public, they are the public.
There are different ways to define Socialism nowadays though. The definition is no longer limited to 'state ownership of the means of production'. The principle aims of Socialism {decentralization of power, giving the people have a democratic role in the production process - what is produced, how it is produced, the ethical code of business practice, and how profits are divied), are often used to describe it nowadays.
It makes more sense to have a worker-cooperative or German worker-council style of ownership than to have ownership through government. It gives people a more direct form of ownership of the means of production they are involved in, decentralizes power within that company, and keeps control of an industry within the hands of those who are familiar with it. You don't need government programs for every single industry, attempting to cover every niche within each industry, and govern it.
This is my problem with government in general: If I want my car fixed, I call a mechanic. If I want my eyes fixed, I call an optomologist. These people specialize in the fields that society employs them for. However, any asshole can run very important programs in government, and know nothing about what he is working with. That's why government so often hires people from within the industry, and so we have a revolving door problem. That's also how a guy like Donald Trump, who knows very little about the position he is running for, could be president. This is inefficient.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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psyconaught said: Who exactly do you think private business owners are? I've been an owner of multiple business's over the coarse of my life. Roughly half of the national GPD is small business owners, people like you, me, your neighbors, etc. They are not some external force that exist outside of the normal public, they are the public.
There are different ways to define Socialism nowadays though. The definition is no longer limited to 'state ownership of the means of production'. The principle aims of Socialism {decentralization of power, giving the people have a democratic role in the production process - what is produced, how it is produced, the ethical code of business practice, and how profits are divied), are often used to describe it nowadays.
It makes more sense to have a worker-cooperative or German worker-council style of ownership than to have ownership through government. It gives people a more direct form of ownership of the means of production they are involved in, decentralizes power within that company, and keeps control of an industry within the hands of those who are familiar with it. You don't need government programs for every single industry, attempting to cover every niche within each industry, and govern it.
This is my problem with government in general: If I want my car fixed, I call a mechanic. If I want my eyes fixed, I call an optomologist. These people specialize in the fields that society employs them for. However, any asshole can run very important programs in government, and know nothing about what he is working with. That's why government so often hires people from within the industry, and so we have a revolving door problem. That's also how a guy like Donald Trump, who knows very little about the position he is running for, could be president. This is inefficient.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. However it seems (and correct me if i have misunderstood your position) that you would prefer to have government enforce these specific styles of operating business's. That is what i take issue with, feel free to operate your business in anyway you chose, but don't tell me I have to operate mine in the same way.
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
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The Ecstatic said:But the sobering truth is that everybody ISNT willing to care about their fellow man, which is why we need a system in place that doesn't exploit, and promote, the shortcomings of human nature.
Government is worse. The evil ones among the capitalists, must use government to achieve their goals. Without government, they have nothing. So giving any of it to the state like you're talking about, is just completely retarded. That's like handing over the keys to the kingdom, to the ones you know are responsible for fucking it up. At least with the capitalists, they're once removed. The government IS the problem. No need to make it worse. Reign them in, instead.
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
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psyconaught said: Who exactly do you think private business owners are? I've been an owner of multiple business's over the coarse of my life. Roughly half of the national GPD is small business owners, people like you, me, your neighbors, etc. They are not some external force that exist outside of the normal public, they are the public.
There are different ways to define Socialism nowadays though. The definition is no longer limited to 'state ownership of the means of production'. The principle aims of Socialism {decentralization of power, giving the people have a democratic role in the production process - what is produced, how it is produced, the ethical code of business practice, and how profits are divied), are often used to describe it nowadays.
It makes more sense to have a worker-cooperative or German worker-council style of ownership than to have ownership through government. It gives people a more direct form of ownership of the means of production they are involved in, decentralizes power within that company, and keeps control of an industry within the hands of those who are familiar with it. You don't need government programs for every single industry, attempting to cover every niche within each industry, and govern it.
This is my problem with government in general: If I want my car fixed, I call a mechanic. If I want my eyes fixed, I call an optomologist. These people specialize in the fields that society employs them for. However, any asshole can run very important programs in government, and know nothing about what he is working with. That's why government so often hires people from within the industry, and so we have a revolving door problem. That's also how a guy like Donald Trump, who knows very little about the position he is running for, could be president. This is inefficient.
A random man should always be POTUS. I think that there should be term limits, and you should only be able to hold 2 offices, period. You can be county clerk, and next you could be potus. But then you're finished. Get all these career scumbags out of there who are only interested in the gravy train, and in power. Fuck all career politicians. A career politician is a subversion of the will of the people, if indirectly.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



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Re: Capitalism at work [Re: bennylava]
#22337320 - 10/05/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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bennylava said: A random man should always be POTUS. I think that there should be term limits, and you should only be able to hold 2 offices, period. You can be county clerk, and next you could be potus. But then you're finished. Get all these career scumbags out of there who are only interested in the gravy train, and in power. Fuck all career politicians. A career politician is a subversion of the will of the people, if indirectly.
I disagree with you. If people want to elect someone 100 times, they should be able to. Its the people's choice, and more choice is better than less. Plus, such limitations would probably only serve to exacerbate the revolving door problem.
I don't think you really understood my post. I was saying that we should design a system which, by its nature, puts people who are familiar and have expertise in a particular sector, govern that sector, whilst simultaneously decentralizing power.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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psyconaught said: I agree with pretty much everything you said. However it seems (and correct me if i have misunderstood your position) that you would prefer to have government enforce these specific styles of operating business's. That is what i take issue with, feel free to operate your business in anyway you chose, but don't tell me I have to operate mine in the same way.
If we were to implement a German worker council style situation, then government enforcement would work just fine.
I would prefer a cultural movement toward an economy composed exclusively of worker cooperatives, though this might also lead to wealth inequality, because in order to join a worker cooperative, you have to purchase an equal share of a company. So more costly industries would employ wealthier people. Though, a more costly industry isn't necessarily more profitable. There are many variables.
I like what some countries, like Italy, are doing to encourage the creation of worker cooperatives. I like what I'm seeing in Cuba nowadays too, with their worker cooperative program.
Look, nobody wants government up their asshole. I don't want it. I believe the government can be useful, though. Right now, our economy is on track to collapse. So even if you don't believe in the "Democratic Socialist" ideals of someone like Bernie Sanders, it will spread the wealth around and give us all a nice standard of living til the clock runs out. We really are doomed one way or another.
If Bernie wins, the collapse will be blamed on his ideals. If Trump wins, it will be blamed on Conservativism. People are very short-sighted. We'll see what comes out of it after the smoke clears.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
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paperbackwriter said:
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bennylava said:
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paperbackwriter said: You don't understand socialism bennylava. It's an economic system and can work independently of having a government at all. Some of the best examples of socialism in action are worker coops and labor unions.
Labor unions? More burdensome corruption.
Every healthy system has corruption.
The point I was making was that socialism and big government are not synonyms. Socialism is an economic system where the workers rather than capitalists control the means of production. Labor unions allow workers to have some say in capitalist business models. Worker coops allow socialist business models to coexist alongside capitalist ones.
Socialsim is an economic system where the STATE owns the means of production. Very different. I have no problem with coops and voluntary business structures like that, they can be very effective. However i highly disagree with a state enforced coercive system. Capitalism simply means that private individuals own the means to production, this doesnt necessarily mean a single individual either. Your local coop falls perfectly within the economic system of capitalism.
You're mixing social ownership up with state ownership. Just as there's state capitalism there's also state socialism. But I assume most of us advocating socialism are speaking of democratic socialism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
psyconaught said: I agree with pretty much everything you said. However it seems (and correct me if i have misunderstood your position) that you would prefer to have government enforce these specific styles of operating business's. That is what i take issue with, feel free to operate your business in anyway you chose, but don't tell me I have to operate mine in the same way.
If we were to implement a German worker council style situation, then government enforcement would work just fine.
I would prefer a cultural movement toward an economy composed exclusively of worker cooperatives, though this might also lead to wealth inequality, because in order to join a worker cooperative, you have to purchase an equal share of a company. So more costly industries would employ wealthier people. Though, a more costly industry isn't necessarily more profitable. There are many variables.
I like what some countries, like Italy, are doing to encourage the creation of worker cooperatives. I like what I'm seeing in Cuba nowadays too, with their worker cooperative program.
Look, nobody wants government up their asshole. I don't want it. I believe the government can be useful, though. Right now, our economy is on track to collapse. So even if you don't believe in the "Democratic Socialist" ideals of someone like Bernie Sanders, it will spread the wealth around and give us all a nice standard of living til the clock runs out. We really are doomed one way or another.
If Bernie wins, the collapse will be blamed on his ideals. If Trump wins, it will be blamed on Conservativism. People are very short-sighted. We'll see what comes out of it after the smoke clears.
I'm not against it because it wouldnt "work", dictatorships work as well. I disagree with it on principle. I think the people should be free to engage in whatever business practices they chose provided its not fraud. If 99% of the country decides to take part only in cooperative style business then go ahead. The 1% should still be free to operate normal hierarchical business structures though.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
and now the germans are evicting people from their homes to make way for refugees... ffs
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/germans-evicted-to-make-room-for-syrian-refugees/
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psyconaught
Chemical Connoisseur


Registered: 11/04/10
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Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
See I don't have a problem with wage gaps. I don't care what the top makes to be honest, it doesnt affect me. And honestly i done understand the obsession with it.
-------------------- Think for yourself, question authority
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
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Quote:
psyconaught said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
See I don't have a problem with wage gaps. I don't care what the top makes to be honest, it doesnt affect me. And honestly i done understand the obsession with it.
Me either. To me, it just comes off as more butthurt libbie jealousy. Like I said in another post, no one is standing their holding a gun to anyone's head, forcing them to work that job. They're there cause they wanna be. College exists. Community college exists. If that low end worker wants to BE the CEO up in that office, he can. There is nothing at all stopping him. That guy is there because he worked hard and he knows his shit. He is deserving, as long as he keeps performing the way the owner or the shareholders wish.
Talking about some kind of wage gap just makes you look like a butthurt crybaby imo. Cause there's no reason to care. You might have a point, if those workers were slaves. They're not.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Quote:
psyconaught said: Who exactly do you think private business owners are? I've been an owner of multiple business's over the coarse of my life. Roughly half of the national GPD is small business owners, people like you, me, your neighbors, etc. They are not some external force that exist outside of the normal public, they are the public.
First let me point out how amazing it is that every single conservative poster on this drug forum is or was a small business owner.
Second, explain to me how small business owners would get screwed under a socialist economy anymore than they are now. Because as it stands they're paying all the dues that the super rich pay with nearly none of the benefits.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
and now the germans are evicting people from their homes to make way for refugees... ffs
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/germans-evicted-to-make-room-for-syrian-refugees/
Quote:
Although the town owns Eschbach’s flat
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hostileuniverse
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
and now the germans are evicting people from their homes to make way for refugees... ffs
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/germans-evicted-to-make-room-for-syrian-refugees/
Quote:
Although the town owns Eschbach’s flat

So you're okay with people being evicted for refugees? Interesting...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I would really like to see a government implemented German worker council style of business. It works fucking great, and it would do a lot to level the wage gap in America, without a need for union involvement.
and now the germans are evicting people from their homes to make way for refugees... ffs
http://www.wnd.com/2015/10/germans-evicted-to-make-room-for-syrian-refugees/
Quote:
Although the town owns Eschbach’s flat

So you're okay with people being evicted for refugees? Interesting...
You're not okay with property owners using their property as they wish?
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