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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: The American poor. [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2230797 - 01/09/04 12:41 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I think mushmaster explained this in some thread or other. By starving and working the poor and disabled to death then they will die out and the earth will belong to the master race.


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Anonymous

Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2230825 - 01/09/04 12:59 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

who is starving and working them to death?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2230984 - 01/09/04 01:59 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I thought we went through this in the thread about you being happy to pay the starving with a bowl of soup a day. You suggested that if they all died there'd be less welfare.


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Anonymous

Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2231308 - 01/09/04 04:07 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

I thought we went through this in the thread about you being happy to pay the starving with a bowl of soup a day.

if someone is willing to work for a bowl of soup a day, why should someone refuse to hire them for that amount? why should someone be prohibited, by force, from paying them that much? why should someone be forced to accept unemployment over employment for a bowl of soup? you cannot make someone's labor worth a certain amount simply by making it illegal to hire them for less than that amount.

You suggested that if they all died there'd be less welfare.

which is true, is it not? what i was was saying was that if people weren't given welfare handouts (more for each kid they have no less) perhaps those who couldn't afford to raise children wouldn't birth them. all we are doing now is paying people who cannot afford to raise children money to have them. we are subsidizing poverty and population growth where there shouldn't be any. what it comes down to is... why should anyone be forced to support anyone else but their own children?

you said:

"By starving and working the poor and disabled to death then they will die out and the earth will belong to the master race."

i am still wondering... who is starving people to death? who is working them to death?

and what's this about a master race? where do you get off implying that i said something like that? for all you know, i'm jewish and i have family who died in the holocaust. think before you make such asinine statements.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2231628 - 01/09/04 06:12 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

if someone is willing to work for a bowl of soup a day, why should someone refuse to hire them for that amount?




But if it is clear that the person doing the hiring could in fact afford to pay these people 10 bowls of soup a day and still make a handsome profit is it really moral for them to only offer one bowl of soup a day?

I can GUARANTEE that if you were ever being paid 1 bowl of soup a day knowing full well that your employer could afford to pay you ten you would be mightily pissed off. You might still work for one bowl a day just so you could exist but you would surely be fucking annoyed.


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Anonymous

Re: The American poor. [Re: GazzBut]
    #2231701 - 01/09/04 06:35 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

But if it is clear that the person doing the hiring could in fact afford to pay these people 10 bowls of soup a day and still make a handsome profit is it really moral for them to only offer one bowl of soup a day?

that's a pretty serious assumption to be making, but for the sake of argument, let's say that a business really could pay all of its workers alot more than it did... why is it immoral? what it comes down to at that point is charity. any extra pay above and beyond what needs to be paid is a charitable donation. the work is worth a bowl of soup per day. if the employer pays 10, then they are not only running a business but also a free soup kitchen. those extra 9 bowls are handouts. there is nothing unethical about keeping what is yours. is it unethical to buy a car at the lowest negotiable price, or should you always offer the salesman twice what he's willing to settle for? is it unethical to hire a plumber at his normal hourly rate, or should you offer much extra? scratch that... those are bad questions... should people be forced to pay extra?

I can GUARANTEE that if you were ever being paid 1 bowl of soup a day knowing full well that your employer could afford to pay you ten you would be mightily pissed off. You might still work for one bowl a day just so you could exist but you would surely be fucking annoyed.

in the summers i work at a swim club doing gruntwork for less than $7 an hour. the guy who owns the place lives in a house worth more than a million dollars and sits on the board of directors at a local bank. he shouldn't be forced to pay me a penny more than he does. it doesn't annoy me a bit.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2231714 - 01/09/04 06:42 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

in the summers i work at a swim club doing gruntwork for less than $7 an hour. the guy who owns the place lives in a house worth more than a million dollars and sits on the board of directors at a local bank. he shouldn't be forced to pay me a penny more than he does. it doesn't annoy me a bit.




You probabaly still live with your parents and dont have any children to support. Of course it doesnt annoy you. duh!


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Offlined33p
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Re: The American poor. [Re: GazzBut]
    #2232042 - 01/09/04 09:14 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Theres a simple solution for how to not become financially challenged because of having numerous children.

Its called DONT FUCK


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The American poor. [Re: d33p]
    #2232064 - 01/09/04 09:23 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Theres a simple solution for how to not become financially challenged because of having numerous children.

Its called DONT FUCK



I'd like to see how long that relationship lasts.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlined33p
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Re: The American poor. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2232136 - 01/09/04 09:54 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Sterilization is k3y


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2232330 - 01/09/04 11:44 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
if someone is willing to work for a bowl of soup a day, why should someone refuse to hire them for that amount? why should someone be prohibited, by force, from paying them that much? why should someone be forced to accept unemployment over employment for a bowl of soup? you cannot make someone's labor worth a certain amount simply by making it illegal to hire them for less than that amount.




I used to think this way as well, so I won't say that it isn't without it's merits. However, for a more in-depth examination of the lives of the people that would be working for soup, I'd recommend reading "The Grapes of Wrath" by John Steinbeck. It deals with the migration of families from Oklahoma and other areas affected by the "Dust bowl" and their reception in California. The rich land owners in California decided to set the minimum wage at 15 cents per hour and told anyone that dared pay more than that that sanctions and other forms of retribution would be enacted upon them. Thus, they managed to make it so that the people who were starving had to work for money that barely allowed them to eat, let alone settle their families in. Some protection needs to be enacted so that this does not happen. I don't personally believe that the Constitution, nor the founding fathers ideas, would support people on welfare just getting a check in the mail every week, but I do think that the "poor" or lower class does deserve protection by the US government, in ways such as setting a federal miniumum wage, just as much as the middle class or rich deserve protection from crooked investors and other white collar criminals.

Quote:


which is true, is it not? what i was was saying was that if people weren't given welfare handouts (more for each kid they have no less) perhaps those who couldn't afford to raise children wouldn't birth them. all we are doing now is paying people who cannot afford to raise children money to have them. we are subsidizing poverty and population growth where there shouldn't be any. what it comes down to is... why should anyone be forced to support anyone else but their own children?




I agree with alot of these points. It does seem that the people that are on welfare (who are also in the groups of lower literacy and education levels) are also the ones that breed more. I'm not sure what the solution is for it. I realize that alot of people do seem to be bilking the system by equating more kids with more money, and breeding with that goal in mind. However, you have to ask the question, if a social program such as welfare is in action, wouldn't it be necessary to increase the benefits for people that do have children? It is a logical progression, it's just that the main program is, in and of itself, is flawed. The "rich" should have a responsibility to ensure that the lower class isn't being trampled on and kept down by the actions of certain groups, but I don't believe that they should be required (or forced, if you like that word) to pay the lower class if they are not working.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2232379 - 01/10/04 12:15 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

But if it is clear that the person doing the hiring could in fact afford to pay these people 10 bowls of soup a day and still make a handsome profit is it really moral for them to only offer one bowl of soup a day?

that's a pretty serious assumption to be making, but for the sake of argument, let's say that a business really could pay all of its workers alot more than it did... why is it immoral? what it comes down to at that point is charity. any extra pay above and beyond what needs to be paid is a charitable donation. the work is worth a bowl of soup per day. if the employer pays 10, then they are not only running a business but also a free soup kitchen. those extra 9 bowls are handouts. there is nothing unethical about keeping what is yours. is it unethical to buy a car at the lowest negotiable price, or should you always offer the salesman twice what he's willing to settle for? is it unethical to hire a plumber at his normal hourly rate, or should you offer much extra? scratch that... those are bad questions... should people be forced to pay extra?




in this example..if that scumbag really could afford to pay everyone 10 bowls of soup..it means that each employee is in fact producing at least that much value...but since their only getting one bowl each..it means that the other 9 bowls are still handouts...in return for their survival..the workers are in effect paying the boss 9 bowls of soup a day so that they can work for him/her...and thats what makes it immoral...


--------------------


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

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Re: The American poor. [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2232392 - 01/10/04 12:22 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Its not the gov'ts job to help these people. The poor will obviously be the majority. If they really wanted to change it they could. People need to get off their asses form organizations not related to the gov't and try to change it for the better.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: The American poor. [Re: d33p]
    #2232416 - 01/10/04 12:44 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

yes and no...in a democracy..the govt's job is to implement a system of checks and balances..so as to avoid a situation in which either party is unfairly exploited...if what you are suggesting is revolution (ie. we dont live in a democracy)..then it means that the govt is not doing its job..which in this case is to help these ppl...


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Registered: 01/04/04
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Re: The American poor. [Re: d33p]
    #2232563 - 01/10/04 02:00 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
Its not the gov'ts job to help these people. The poor will obviously be the majority. If they really wanted to change it they could. People need to get off their asses form organizations not related to the gov't and try to change it for the better.




It is the governments job to protect the best interest of all the citizens that make up the government (in theory, everyone). Each group of people (poor, middle class, rich, etc) need to have specific laws designed to protect them. The laws regarding the SEC don't usually apply to the poor people, they are mainly established to protect the rich people. The same should be made for poor people. They deserve to be protected for the simple reason that htey are a part of the country, and "we" protect our own.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: The American poor. [Re: ]
    #2232697 - 01/10/04 04:24 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

if someone is willing to work for a bowl of soup a day, why should someone refuse to hire them for that amount?

So if someone can find children willing to work as child prostitutes why should they refuse to hire them?

why should someone be forced to accept unemployment over employment for a bowl of soup?

Because when employers realise they can exploit the starving, wages for everyone else drop through the floor and we are effectively back in the days of slavery.

which is true, is it not?

Yep, if you've starved to death you can't claim welfare.

i am still wondering... who is starving people to death? who is working them to death?

I think you'll have to read this in relation to toiletduks post to understand.

and what's this about a master race?

Your concept of the poor and disabled working for a bowl of soup a day is awfully similar to the Nazi concept of treatment for the "sub-humans". Can you tell me how it differs?

Himmler said whether 10,000 russian women drop dead digging a trench for us interests me only in so far as the trench is dug. Would you agree with this? If 10,000 people dropped dead because they only had a bowl of soup a day to eat would you think they should be "paid" more? You appear to be saying if you can find starving people desperate enough to work for a bowl of soup a day to keep them alive a few days longer then it is perfectly acceptable to work them to death.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The American poor. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2233072 - 01/10/04 01:07 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

What you're saying is that it would be better for them to just go ahead and drop dead without the soup.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: The American poor. [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2233083 - 01/10/04 01:15 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

It is the governments job to protect the best interest of all the citizens that make up the government (in theory, everyone). Each group of people (poor, middle class, rich, etc) need to have specific laws designed to protect them. The laws regarding the SEC don't usually apply to the poor people, they are mainly established to protect the rich people. The same should be made for poor people. They deserve to be protected for the simple reason that htey are a part of the country, and "we" protect our own.

that is an excellent point. many regulatory agencies like the FTC and the SEC protect the rich, but they are paid for by everyone, including the poor.


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Offlined33p
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2233105 - 01/10/04 01:28 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Regulated taxes and federal social programs are not my idea of protecting the rich. It may have been good in a fairly tale but in the real world taking from the rich and giving to the poor is not protecting everyone's best intrests.


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: The American poor. [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2233314 - 01/10/04 03:46 PM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Lets say that I own a warehouse. The majority of my labor is unskilled and highschool or GED education level. If the other warehouses were paying 15$/hour and offering full medical, dental and vision benefits, I'd have to do the same (or better) or I wouldn't be able to attract workers. Now, lets say that I went to the owners of the other warehouses in town. I proposed a plan that would save us a great deal of money. We would all agree to pay our workers no more than 7$/hour and offer no benefits. Since every warehouse would do this, the people would either work for the much lower wage with no benefits, or not have a job any longer. Lets take this a little bit farther and say that the association that I made with other warehouse workers went a bit farther. I'd talk with the farmers who would pay their cheap, uneducated labor much less than they were now. Now, if their wasn't a federally established minimum wage, we could keep on doing this until the only opportunities that unskilled workers had were all paying the same meager salary (or, perhaps, a bowl of soup per day?). This is an example of why the Federal Government does need to be involved in regulating business and protecting the interests of the poor.

If it was done with prices of merchandise, it would be price-fixing and would be illegal. If it were done with stocks and bonds, it would be illegal. The lower class needs to have governmental protection to ensure that they aren't being oppressed as much as the wealthy do to ensure that their isn't insider trading taking place, casuing their entire portfolio's to shrink exponentially overnight (read: Enron).


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