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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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spiritual justice * 1
    #22263913 - 09/20/15 09:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

While justice may not be done on Earth -- where, in fact, it may be flagrantly undone -- I do have faith that, in the end, justice prevails on a karmic level.  No one can escape himself.

How do you feel about the concept of karma?  Is fate even-handed, in the end?


    Blessed are the meek:
    for they shall inherit the earth.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22264035 - 09/20/15 10:09 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I'd like to further explore what you conceptualise as 'fate' here DQ. I absolutely believe in some kind synchronistic 'karma' - those that wrong and harm others, at some level, either in this life or in their time in passing from it, will pay a price.

I may be entirely incorrect and misguided here, but I can certainly lean on my own experiences in as much as the more I do good/try to be good, the more life rewards me for it with an inner, deep rooted joy.

If it works that way round, then surely it will work the other way too?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22264469 - 09/20/15 11:55 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Oh I think you're right.  As far as the bigger picture goes, the Buddhists are quite clear that appropriate fates await those who have performed the appropriate actions.  And wouldn't you guess that most people are shoved right back down into this sad fracas.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22264496 - 09/20/15 12:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
And wouldn't you guess that most people are shoved right back down into this sad fracas.



That made me lol. A bloody fate worse than death if ever there was one!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22264833 - 09/20/15 01:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I don't hold with the idea of karma being the universe's reward and punishment system exactly. I see it as more of just a cause and effect, with our evolution and learning in mind. The energy you put out, you eventually receive back in the macrocosm as some kind of event. I don't even see it as justice being done really. The point of karma is to reflect back to us the areas we still need to work on to become liberated beings who flow with unconditional love. So if you put out some energy that is not completely loving and compassionate, for example if you get angry with your partner during a disagreement, then at some point that energy will come back to you to show you that this is an area that needs you attention. You might find yourself being spoken to in a similar kind of way by someone else. But this is not to punish you, it's to say "Hey, wake up. You need to see this aspect of yourself and be conscious of it!" But the problem is that most people have no idea of the link between their thoughts and intentions and their experiences in the world, so they go around creating lots of negative karma for themselves without realising it.

Almost everything we experience is karmic in some way, whether we are conscious of it or not. My understanding is that a lot of it we are completely unconscious of, because it comes from past lives etc. My teacher says that pretty much all of us have been rapists and murderers at some point in our many lives, so we all carry a lot of negative karma around with us. Until you start digging down into the depths of the subconscious and unconscious mind, only a small part of karma is visible. I've found that as I'm becoming more aware, I can notice the links between my thoughts and intentions and some of the things that happen to me in my life (but much is still unconscious because I haven't started working on that yet).  It can be a small an unexpected traffic jam after I start to get stressed about being late for work.

In my understanding, the liberated being is the one who has released all of their "negative" karma, from their conscious, subconscious and unconscious, and so are free from the cycle of cause and effect, including rebirth in this world.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offlineeckelshwarm
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: PocketLady]
    #22264941 - 09/20/15 01:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

People telling me life's not fair... fheir (if, "here") fucking pisses me off. I still manage to maintain weight and smoke pot thankfully to my mom's purse.

what the fuck do they think they're trying to say about me? fuck.

(the sound of the voice saying this:
)



(here, Oh, Inˆ)


Edited by eckelshwarm (09/20/15 01:49 PM)


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: eckelshwarm]
    #22265612 - 09/20/15 03:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

That's an absolutely incredible post PocketLady, thank you for sharing that with us. I'm very interested in the work you're doing at the moment; as someone who is very recent into the world of therapy I would love to know about the direction in which you are heading or which you have chosen. Feel free to PM if you feel it would be more appropriate.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


Edited by Jokeshopbeard (09/20/15 04:00 PM)


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: eckelshwarm]
    #22265666 - 09/20/15 04:01 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

eckelshwarm said:
People telling me life's not fair... fheir (if, "here") fucking pisses me off. I still manage to maintain weight and smoke pot thankfully to my mom's purse.



Would you care to expand on that a little?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinemuckamuck
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22265755 - 09/20/15 04:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

what's that, elephant? you don't like working in this circus? feeling hard done by? well then you must be a very naughty elephant :nono: where's my taser?

karma


--------------------
:hank:


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22266348 - 09/20/15 06:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I've never been able to get on board with the idea of karma as anything more specific than an organic cause and effect in the broadest sense, the mechanics of which I don't have access to.

I don't really know what justice is. It seems to me like a wrapper concept for our feelings of anger -- vengeance satisfied by proxy of some higher power.

When justice is done, what is it done to?


edit: clarity


Edited by DisoRDeR (10/08/15 09:06 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #22266425 - 09/20/15 06:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Justice is true..but its final outcome is always positive self fulfillment and alignment with the way things are..it doesnt matter if one pays a price or not..only that they end up complete and whole..and this generative effect is one complete unit compared to the whole..so i would say in a meta or macro perspective..the end game is salvation and Holiness(wholeness).


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: PocketLady]
    #22267290 - 09/20/15 09:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I don't hold with the idea of karma being the universe's reward and punishment system exactly. I see it as more of just a cause and effect, with our evolution and learning in mind. The energy you put out, you eventually receive back in the macrocosm as some kind of event. I don't even see it as justice being done really. The point of karma is to reflect back to us the areas we still need to work on to become liberated beings who flow with unconditional love. So if you put out some energy that is not completely loving and compassionate, for example if you get angry with your partner during a disagreement, then at some point that energy will come back to you to show you that this is an area that needs you attention. You might find yourself being spoken to in a similar kind of way by someone else. But this is not to punish you, it's to say "Hey, wake up. You need to see this aspect of yourself and be conscious of it!" But the problem is that most people have no idea of the link between their thoughts and intentions and their experiences in the world, so they go around creating lots of negative karma for themselves without realising it.

Almost everything we experience is karmic in some way, whether we are conscious of it or not. My understanding is that a lot of it we are completely unconscious of, because it comes from past lives etc. My teacher says that pretty much all of us have been rapists and murderers at some point in our many lives, so we all carry a lot of negative karma around with us. Until you start digging down into the depths of the subconscious and unconscious mind, only a small part of karma is visible. I've found that as I'm becoming more aware, I can notice the links between my thoughts and intentions and some of the things that happen to me in my life (but much is still unconscious because I haven't started working on that yet).  It can be a small an unexpected traffic jam after I start to get stressed about being late for work.

In my understanding, the liberated being is the one who has released all of their "negative" karma, from their conscious, subconscious and unconscious, and so are free from the cycle of cause and effect, including rebirth in this world.




I agree mostly with what you are saying only could it not also be said that this view isn't necessarily in opposition to a more reward/punishment sort of view? For example, if a kid fails to brush his teeth and his parents punish him by not letting him have any dessert the next day, they are doing that for his own good with his energy and learning in mind.

So reward and punishment has meaning outside of the need for revenge. Speaking of revenge, a Buddhist once said that whenever you want to take revenge on someone, you should remind yourself what is the point? Karma will get the sons of bitches anyway.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Peyote Road]
    #22267340 - 09/20/15 10:06 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I find it difficult to accept a cosmic system when the terms are pretty vague. Good and bad are dependent on who you're asking, and justice is a very....."flexible" term. In the end it's not that much different from revenge.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Peyote Road]
    #22268439 - 09/21/15 08:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
I agree mostly with what you are saying only could it not also be said that this view isn't necessarily in opposition to a more reward/punishment sort of view? For example, if a kid fails to brush his teeth and his parents punish him by not letting him have any dessert the next day, they are doing that for his own good with his energy and learning in mind.

So reward and punishment has meaning outside of the need for revenge. Speaking of revenge, a Buddhist once said that whenever you want to take revenge on someone, you should remind yourself what is the point? Karma will get the sons of bitches anyway.





Well said.  I don't think revenge is necessarily implied, either.  Rather, appropriateness as it pertains to the truth.  Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of justice.  Perhaps it will shed some light:


Quote:

1  a :  the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

b :  judge

c :  the administration of law; especially :  the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity

2  a :  the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

b (1) :  the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action

(2) :  conformity to this principle or ideal :  righteousness

c :  the quality of conforming to law


3  :  conformity to truth, fact, or reason :  correctness





I have bolded what is especially relevant.  As one can see, justice is not necessarily predicated on revenge at all.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22268475 - 09/21/15 09:00 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

But even the bolded sections are pretty arbitrary


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Thanatos10]
    #22268484 - 09/21/15 09:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Only according to your opinion.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22268590 - 09/21/15 09:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

My reflections on justice are more applicable to its manifestation in human society. People do grasp to the 'justice system' as a means to vengeance. Similarly, some identify karma as a means of ultimate vengeance.

Where I stumble on this is the individual level -- distinguishing (conscious) actors, their continuity and contribution to karmic processes.

There tend to be assumptions about a trans-personal individuation that enter into invocations of karma, but it is only when identifying myself as ultimately indistinct from all else that karma makes any sense to me. The bad guy doesn't necessarily get what's coming to him for launching his cannonball, but we all feel the ripples in the pool.

Is spiritual justice synonymous with natural law?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #22268625 - 09/21/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Is spiritual justice synonymous with natural law?




I think it certainly could be, and of course it all depends on how one looks at it.  In the sense that violations of the law create major disturbances, I think it is a decidedly valid comparison.  And what goes around comes around. 

Another way to look at it might be to analogize it to a balance scale.  If the scale is perfectly balanced, there is equanimity and harmony.  When it's tipped in one direction or another, something, some force, must bring it back into balance.  I think this balancing could be associated with the justice of which I speak.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22269221 - 09/21/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Only according to your opinion.




Justice as far as I know is a human concept, and the concept of what is fair and just varies from person to person. Even righteousness, also opinion and not grounded in anything. Laws are just popular opinion, they shift and change with time.

Actions have consequences, I don't doubt that. But to what those consequences are I cannot say, I cannot even say they are good or bad.

But it is comforting to think there is some kind of equalizer.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Peyote Road]
    #22269764 - 09/21/15 02:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:


I agree mostly with what you are saying only could it not also be said that this view isn't necessarily in opposition to a more reward/punishment sort of view? For example, if a kid fails to brush his teeth and his parents punish him by not letting him have any dessert the next day, they are doing that for his own good with his energy and learning in mind.

So reward and punishment has meaning outside of the need for revenge. Speaking of revenge, a Buddhist once said that whenever you want to take revenge on someone, you should remind yourself what is the point? Karma will get the sons of bitches anyway.




Yes I understand where you are coming from, and I can certainly see how it could be viewed like that. But the whole idea of reward and punishment reinforces the dualist viewpoint, good and bad etc. For those trying to undo their karma and find liberation, the goal is realising that duality is an illusion, that there is actually no such thing as reward and punishment, which is merely a construct of the faulty egoic-self.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22269803 - 09/21/15 02:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
That's an absolutely incredible post PocketLady, thank you for sharing that with us. I'm very interested in the work you're doing at the moment; as someone who is very recent into the world of therapy I would love to know about the direction in which you are heading or which you have chosen. Feel free to PM if you feel it would be more appropriate.





I've sent you an email with some specifics as to what I'm involved in. I don't mind giving the info out but I'm just not quite sure whether sharing on a public forum is the right thing to do. If anyone else in interested in specifics, feel free to PM :smile:  In general though, the work I'm doing is all about making things conscious. If you can be totally aware and in acceptance when certain feelings, thoughts and emotions come up, you can release yourself from them completely. That's how it is possible to get rid of karmic impressions and let go of the hold they have over your life. The problem is that unless you have been trained in specific meditation techniques, and have done something to improve the vitality of the body, most of us just don't have the strength to do that, no matter how hard we try. (But thankfully there are people out there teaching these techniques.) Instead we are overcome by the sensations of thought & emotions, and are swept off into fantasy land where we carry on creating negative karma for ourselves, because we believe we are the egoic identity.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (09/21/15 02:49 PM)


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: Peyote Road]
    #22270614 - 09/21/15 05:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

PocketLady said:
I don't hold with the idea of karma being the universe's reward and punishment system exactly. I see it as more of just a cause and effect, with our evolution and learning in mind. The energy you put out, you eventually receive back in the macrocosm as some kind of event. I don't even see it as justice being done really. The point of karma is to reflect back to us the areas we still need to work on to become liberated beings who flow with unconditional love. So if you put out some energy that is not completely loving and compassionate, for example if you get angry with your partner during a disagreement, then at some point that energy will come back to you to show you that this is an area that needs you attention. You might find yourself being spoken to in a similar kind of way by someone else. But this is not to punish you, it's to say "Hey, wake up. You need to see this aspect of yourself and be conscious of it!" But the problem is that most people have no idea of the link between their thoughts and intentions and their experiences in the world, so they go around creating lots of negative karma for themselves without realising it.

Almost everything we experience is karmic in some way, whether we are conscious of it or not. My understanding is that a lot of it we are completely unconscious of, because it comes from past lives etc. My teacher says that pretty much all of us have been rapists and murderers at some point in our many lives, so we all carry a lot of negative karma around with us. Until you start digging down into the depths of the subconscious and unconscious mind, only a small part of karma is visible. I've found that as I'm becoming more aware, I can notice the links between my thoughts and intentions and some of the things that happen to me in my life (but much is still unconscious because I haven't started working on that yet).  It can be a small an unexpected traffic jam after I start to get stressed about being late for work.

In my understanding, the liberated being is the one who has released all of their "negative" karma, from their conscious, subconscious and unconscious, and so are free from the cycle of cause and effect, including rebirth in this world.




I agree mostly with what you are saying only could it not also be said that this view isn't necessarily in opposition to a more reward/punishment sort of view? For example, if a kid fails to brush his teeth and his parents punish him by not letting him have any dessert the next day, they are doing that for his own good with his energy and learning in mind.

So reward and punishment has meaning outside of the need for revenge. Speaking of revenge, a Buddhist once said that whenever you want to take revenge on someone, you should remind yourself what is the point? Karma will get the sons of bitches anyway.




Hi, but buddhists are still a part of this reality..what if karma is the monk itself..and whatever he feels to do is his real karma anyways..if thats what revenge is like..then i hope to change all the people who want it against me..and im willing to work on it for years..


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InvisibleDisoRDeR
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22276396 - 09/22/15 09:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

DisoRDeR said:
Is spiritual justice synonymous with natural law?




I think it certainly could be, and of course it all depends on how one looks at it.  In the sense that violations of the law create major disturbances, I think it is a decidedly valid comparison.  And what goes around comes around. 

Another way to look at it might be to analogize it to a balance scale.  If the scale is perfectly balanced, there is equanimity and harmony.  When it's tipped in one direction or another, something, some force, must bring it back into balance.  I think this balancing could be associated with the justice of which I speak.





Systems in action seem to be out of balance, no? But perhaps they're all settling. Temporality is problematic here.

I'm reminded of tai chi chuan, and the idea that one is only double-weighted (i.e. flat-footed and evenly balanced) at the start and end of the practice. The whole world of action in between is arbitrary in a sense, but moves elegantly and in accord with the forms.


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InvisibleKurt
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Re: spiritual justice [Re: DisoRDeR]
    #22277342 - 09/23/15 02:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I think there is something in nature that we all eventually  encounter as what we are responsible for, but which we are not blameworthy for. One recognizes this hopefully. I would say that would be one's spiritual "work", at least.

But also, between the arising sensory impression, (through experience and all that accompanies it) and what we know as "causality" or "law" of nature, we all draw a connection. I would say it is possible that in examining this in a certain way, the very same thing is being observed, not just as part of the psyche, but as a part of nature itself.

I think while it is law of work in one sense, it would also be quite liberal to discuss between humans, and based on attitude and ethic, mostly in a personally assumed way.

It is interesting how things begin with sense, and that to study the nature of impressions, to observe an actual quality of impression, rather than just seeing a biased or scewed view of things you can see anything from a choppy flow, to a murky water to a lucid pond. It is easy to find the impression itself to be such a stranglehold, particularly when you talk about it in certain principle. An attachment to the senses, indicates it is impossible to make any kind of progress in meditation practice without addressing the stranglehold.

But interestingly once you bear that open, and loosen it up, perhaps in the work, in the principle of it, things change. Maybe there are things which arise before sense impression. Maybe the corrolary of sense as the basis of all arising, may be suggested then as something else. For instance, non-clinging meets non-aversion, allowing the eyes to rest open and float more and stick less...live, enjoy...

Just some thoughts fellow spiritualists, that's all.


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