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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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Loc: Deep in the system
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More & more..
#22260159 - 09/19/15 01:00 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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..as I age, I can't shake off this undeniable feeling that we're all so intimately connected. That all the boundaries that we put up are so pointless. Is that why psychedelics (like the 2C-T-2 I'm currently blessed enough to be experiencing) are so appealing to us? Because they dissolve those artificial boundaries that we put up all around ourselves?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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I dunno man. I feel connected by some things and not by others. Some elements of humanity seem to separate us. Anger -- feeling anger or experiencing someone else's anger for instance does not create a sensation of connection IME.
I do think we prefer those things which allow us to feel connected however
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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PocketLady



Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 1,773
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Re: More & more.. [Re: Kickle]
#22260746 - 09/19/15 03:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Love your sig Jokeshop. And yes, I think that is a big part of why psychs are so appealing. As Kickle says, some of the things we do as a species do cause further separation. The reason I once loved psychs and now love meditation is that both of them allow us to see that the anger, the separation, it's all an illusion
-------------------- Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity. The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death. Tomorrow, when resurrection comes, The heart that is not in love will fail the test. ~ Rumi The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny. ~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir
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usulpsychonaut


Registered: 05/12/08
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My feeling is total disconnection. Intimacy is impossible. Psychedelics disrupt the boredom, sometimes.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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On the concept of anger, and especially feeling it towards our fellow human - surely, in a more utopian image of society (i.e. in a tribal existence) it would be felt very rarely compared to the frequency of which it is felt in post-modern society?
I'm sure it has its place as a motivational driver (perhaps feeling anger at having your home blown away by a hurricane or seeing your fellow humans die off in a drought) and therefore is necessary to motivate one to act in a way which could avoid its recurrence, but it feels very out of place in the way we experience it in this day and age.
usulpsychonaut - I think what you describe is likely a result of unbalanced brain chemistry. Was your childhood fraught with traumatic experiences?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: More & more.. [Re: Kickle]
#22266069 - 09/20/15 05:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: I dunno man. I feel connected by some things and not by others. Some elements of humanity seem to separate us. Anger -- feeling anger or experiencing someone else's anger for instance does not create a sensation of connection IME.
I do think we prefer those things which allow us to feel connected however 
If you think about it Kickle, anger does connect us, but in a negative way. Anger is the #1 obstacle to spiritual development in Buddhism. It is considered to be THE paradigm for attachment. The seeds of my anger are not completely cooked. If I begin to dredge up some things my ex-wife did to me, I can still experience anger arising and the last time I saw her was at our divorce mediation in 1994. I don't think Jokeshopbeard means this connection, but rather the dissolution of artificial barriers where we do not connect in an oppositional stance between two egos, but a realization that our essential nature in a 'unified field.' I think your second sentence affirmed this kind of connection, no?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/22/15 04:20 PM)
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champinhom
Lord Justhappensness


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 987
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
If you think about it Kickle, anger does connect us, but in a negative way. Anger is the #1 obstacle to spiritual development in Buddhism. It is considered to be THE paradigm for attachment. The seeds of my anger are not completely cooked. If I begin to dredge up some things my ex-wife did to me, I can still experience anger arising and the last time I saw her was at our divorce mediation in 1994. I don't think Jokeshopbeard means this connection, but rather the dissolution of artificial barriers where we do not connect in an oppositional stance between tow egos, but a realization that our essential nature in a 'unified field.' I think your second sentence affirmed this kind of connection, no?
I hear what you say about anger. I don't disagree. It is a serious drag to spiritual development.
But...I am actually not intereseted in spiritual development. I am interested in what is bursting spontanelusly forth right this nano second. I mean, I am interested in now/world. What is called anger is there some of the time. It is like anything that is actual, it appears out of nothing. I find that when I don't call it anything or position myself defensively with regard to it, it gets experienced as a kind of-- mild or wild as the case may be-- shock wave. If you don't name it, it is just more grist for the mill--as Ram Das would have it. I mean it is then food, nourishment. It invogorates. you feel it without acting it out.
That powerful energy that is lable-slapped "anger" as soon as it arises and is acted upon,i.e., repressed or expressed--that is the anger the Buddha warns against. No?
-------------------- My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said. Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking. Saul Bellow “People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P. Silocybin
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
champinhom said: I hear what you say about anger. I don't disagree. It is a serious drag to spiritual development.
But...I am actually not intereseted in spiritual development. I am interested in what is bursting spontanelusly forth right this nano second. I mean, I am interested in now/world. What is called anger is there some of the time. It is like anything that is actual, it appears out of nothing. I find that when I don't call it anything or position myself defensively with regard to it, it gets experienced as a kind of-- mild or wild as the case may be-- shock wave. If you don't name it, it is just more grist for the mill--as Ram Das would have it. I mean it is then food, nourishment. It invogorates. you feel it without acting it out.
That powerful energy that is lable-slapped "anger" as soon as it arises and is acted upon,i.e., repressed or expressed--that is the anger the Buddha warns against. No?
Jesus man, that reads just like my thought process mid-way through an LSD trip...
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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once in a lifetime
sun child



Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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..as I age, I can't shake off this undeniable feeling that we're all so intimately connected. That all the boundaries that we put up are so pointless. Is that why psychedelics (like the 2C-T-2 I'm currently blessed enough to be experiencing) are so appealing to us? Because they dissolve those artificial boundaries that we put up all around ourselves?
Yep - it's an ever more beautiful mystery; there is literally no end to the miracles and light and beauty. . . i have been drifting, just a bit, not in a mechanical way or anything, really drifting like getting back on the light-path or heaven-path. . sometimes sure there is the feeling of what's next. . . most of the time it's just appreciation of the wind & rain. . . & sun when those are gone. . spent a good 4 weeks in the woods, that was like a year in some ways. . . opens up to the nature, to concentration. . . when you got days to wait, in the first couple days, all the 'blah' fades away; in the next few weeks, everything is so beautiful, so clear, it's really wonderful. sorry for ramblin,' see ya' round.
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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No longer into highs and lows, and anger is one of those highs which is empowering and hence addictive. I finally got in touch with anger at my divorce and after internalizing it, a suspicious mole turned melanoma. It was time to transmute the anger, which I did at the gym. I got stronger and survived the cancer. Now I watch it as it arises. Sometimes curse and swear, but I never have acted out violently as a result of it. I'd rather develop ataraxia, dispassion.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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champinhom
Lord Justhappensness


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 987
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Jesus man, that reads just like my thought process mid-way through an LSD trip...
Well, you know what they say about great minds...and every mind can be great on LSD. (the heavy word here is "can")
-------------------- My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said. Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking. Saul Bellow “People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P. Silocybin
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champinhom
Lord Justhappensness


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 987
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: No longer into highs and lows, and anger is one of those highs which is empowering and hence addictive. I finally got in touch with anger at my divorce and after internalizing it, a suspicious mole turned melanoma. It was time to transmute the anger, which I did at the gym. I got stronger and survived the cancer. Now I watch it as it arises. Sometimes curse and swear, but I never have acted out violently as a result of it. I'd rather develop ataraxia, dispassion.
Well, anger is going to be there whatever you develop. Jesus went through the temple swinging a whip one day. I'm sure that Gautama blew up now and then--of course you won't find a recond of that part in the scriptures...It's how it's experienced that makes the difference. "All Good" say the Dzogchenists.
-------------------- My father used to say: I don't care what else you do in life, just don't be an asshole. People, forgive me when I forget what my daddy said. Cut back the proliferating list of people whose opinions can hurt you. Unless they have done or want to do you some good, their views are just not worth tracking. Saul Bellow “People are just cannibals unless they leave each other alone.” Doris Lessing Those whom the gods would save, they dower with compassion. Mr. P. Silocybin
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MarkostheGnostic
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Well, you might be right about Siddhartha at the beginning of his trip, but even when he lay dying, poisoned by his hosts accidentally, I don't think the 80 year old Buddha threw a fit. As to Jesus, I find the entirety of the biblical gospels to be Egyptian myth adapted from the Pyramid and Coffin texts, and any story, including the over-turning of the tables of the temple, included. But, your point is well taken if it is that we're all mammals and anger is an animal proclivity.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/22/15 04:21 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Kickle said: I dunno man. I feel connected by some things and not by others. Some elements of humanity seem to separate us. Anger -- feeling anger or experiencing someone else's anger for instance does not create a sensation of connection IME.
I do think we prefer those things which allow us to feel connected however 
If you think about it Kickle, anger does connect us, but in a negative way. Anger is the #1 obstacle to spiritual development in Buddhism. It is considered to be THE paradigm for attachment. The seeds of my anger are not completely cooked. If I begin to dredge up some things my ex-wife did to me, I can still experience anger arising and the last time I saw her was at our divorce mediation in 1994. I don't think Jokeshopbeard means this connection, but rather the dissolution of artificial barriers where we do not connect in an oppositional stance between tow egos, but a realization that our essential nature in a 'unified field.' I think your second sentence affirmed this kind of connection, no?
I am thinking about it and have been. Perhaps it connects us negatively when we have the means to connect to it. I do think that your point is quite substantial
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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once in a lifetime
sun child



Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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Re: More & more.. [Re: Kickle]
#22278407 - 09/23/15 11:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, we are always connected, even when we don't realize it, as the common wisdom goes. As Markos mentioned, Buddhism considers anger very carefully - the point of view there is that, 'As soon as anger arises, the body is polluted,' - this was very interesting and helpful to me when I was first considering it; I considered it from the view of brain-chemistry basically, which has more precise terms I am sure, but that one suffices me.
Over the last couple of years, I have come to view it as a basically entirely self-destructive energy. And some very good discussions with Glimpee helped me clarify my view -
But it still held true - and I also came to understand that sadness and fear are almost identical to it. .
One, perhaps simplistic way of looking at it, is that - anger arises because we think something should be different: if something should be, we should simply act. . .
Here is one of the main things: we ought to be immune to any persuasion / manipulation. The point is - if you have overcome all your buttons or attachments, no one can make you angry. . . it's just a natural state, really. . a very apt metaphor for the mind in general - when we are attached to objects - then when the objects change or move, the mind changes or moves. . . in the term I first read about that - 'gets jerked around;' etc.
Of course - the point of being immune from persuasion - indicates that the world is not a perfect, total paradise yet - which, in some beautiful visions, many of us say that it already is one! haha. . . but what I mean to get at it here is - this spiritual aspect of reaching self-mastery is useful in the temporal world. . yet in the higher world. . it's still there - immunity to chicanery - even though it may not be a survive or die scenario any more.
I suppose the most basic way I would describe it is - an energy - a learned emotion - and something artificial truly, that we pick up from those around us ( unless we are successful at navigating such paths. . . )
And thru my life - seemed to have learn that sadness & fear function almost exactly the same.
The Cat in the Hat story about the pink stuff, that they couldn't get off in the bath or any other way has come to mind throughout my life. . . Fortunately, there is a cure, haha - the funny thing is, one has to give very great efforts. . .
Very great efforts indeed, throughout the first parts of that path-way, if one makes the determination - I can be free of all that, and I will be . . .
The reason for such largeness of effort required may be partly explained by the fact that as humans - or just mammals - we tend to remember what is painful more clearly than what is pleasurable. . .
This is only one tiny aspect, but it's a helpful piece of the jigsaw -
it makes sense, evolutionarily, in a way - to avoid fire, sharp things !
To have a mechanism in place to remember those things very well - in the wild - we may only get one chance to learn about them - before a life or death trial occurs -
But in our current, more tame environment - the same is not true -
that is, the frequency of life-or-death trials is far less than it was, even 125 years ago. . . by a huge amount. . !
Anyway - just that point came to mind. . . it doesn't mean that there aren't inner worlds to explore - spiritual realities - all kinds of beautiful worlds -
and, levels of peace are still there - simplistic things I said before, such as there are boundless levels of peace. . .
levels of non-regression basically - and various levels of settled peace; those are all there...
it just means that in the beginning stages - this is one part of mystery as to why it takes such a devoted effort to reach the first levels of heaven, or settled peace.
and then - shoot, if life were perfect then on - we would have less to learn. 
but what I failed to make perfect, any other person could have done so - such is the value of friendship, diversity & working together!
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
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Quote:
once in a lifetime said: the funny thing is, one has to give very great efforts. . .
Thank you for your post man. Could you elaborate on what you mean by such effort? Of course I have my own understanding thus far but I would really appreciate your take on it.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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once in a lifetime
sun child



Registered: 02/12/15
Posts: 1,807
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Yeah; of course. Well basically I mean any applied effort to spiritual practice, be it whatever form it could take, and I suppose, with 7.29 billion people, and who knows how many other worlds & universes, that really is varied. said with a smile.
For me, a good level or stepping point was when I began to have more sensitivity to thoughts, words and memes, as being sort of the same. . I began to be aware that every thought & every word, that comes my way or that I create, all of those have an effect on me. . I began to be more sensitive to those as slightly palpable. . .
And definitely - how they relate to my health was how they were most clear to me. .
Even once, this one guy, who was in a sense, riddled with certain insecurities - a total classic example of how you can have very deeply held limitations - sort of nice enough guy, but - as I say - riddled with those. . .
one time he said something to me and I literally felt; sort of, it felt like my immune system being attacked! !
That was about 2.3 years ago I'd estimate. . . about 5-6 years ago was when I went through my own practice - which I sorta created on my own. . . but nothing very special about it that you couldn't find in lots of others. . . but I do like to keep it simple!
Anyway that was a process of self-strengthening, & adding writing in cursive positive suggestions to myself on paper, along with chanting & singing plenty of mantras, and doing plenty of walking - hiking, and occasionally reading a little bit. . .
also dharma talks of Tara Brach were the most transforming, near & before that time, & a few others of course. . .
a cool thing is when you get to where you're on a level with one of those teachers, at least, in a couple of the aspects - I suppose there are near infinite, heh. .
and that's rambling but - this process which could be lumped in with 'positive thinking' was actually very profound in my life. . . and of course, a half-decade ago to now, have thought of even more how it all is. . . i mean - how it sounds & the rest. . .
& it's beautiful, for certain, that all of that fades. . . ! 
& by the way, for randomly going off topic my apologies - also randomly, would def. put up my pic if i had one, have a big (ish, I suppose relative) beard & lengthening brown hair, have had long hair couple times etc.
& so ya - that strengthening processes was a huge part of it for me, but also the practices of a few of those others, of course I've mentioned the ones I was interested in mostly; lately got a couple more.
lately too that sorta, month long retreat was cool in so many ways; a month changes life so much or it can.
self-faith is a funny, so funny & beautiful a mechanism. . . it is an aspect of life that is most essential - how much so that it is almost - if you could have more than 100% it would almost be desirable. . .
yet it's the principle means for sure of surpassing your limitations -
& also, too true that the path of not seeking. . . ah,
I will let go & let words fade. .
it is very interesting. . . a most interesting one - self-trust/faith;
for one is the question - how do I know to trust myself? For me, the answer has always been,
'I touch the ground, I know the ground is there - as all of my senses have always confirmed this, all my life - this is how / why I trust my visions.'
Yet when we're just day-dreaming, about very high stuff. . . some of it is revelation - yet we're not 100%. . . I've spent too much time in the objective / logical arenas to know. . . yet I've spent too much time experiencing miracles not to believe in some kind of higher worlds - not to mention my LSD exp lol!
& actually, far beyond 'believe,' because if you have seen a certain number of total miracles. . . just, ridiculous things - and I can certainly say over the last 7 months, I've seen many new & beautiful things - lots of times - merely from contact & association with Shromoery; it's a most beautiful place.
Yet it's so amazing, how the mind can still - again return to the classic day-dreams; that bodily or separate type of consciousness or existence. . .
it would be far in excess of too much praise to call such play-acting 'beautiful,' although that is of course, the obvious path. .
when did we ever get here by being obvious?

(meaning, more or less, evolutionarily )
oh &, was just gonna say, the self-surpassing is interesting, more so am glad Shroomery is here, a very fascinating and enjoyable path so far!!
over all, all-in-all, I mean. . of course'
-------------------- Innocent, Oldfield & Hegerland Julia Delaney, Bothy Band Rasta Girl, Sister Carol Genesis, Jorma K I Wish You Peace, Lawrence Laughing Do Your Thing, Moondog large . . music garden . . veryall peace them hiStarhouse - main Time Traveler's Guide
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