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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Materialism 
#2225710 - 01/07/04 11:00 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is another spin-off thread.
Why do some of you believe that spiritualism and materialism are somehow mutally exclusive?
Is the driver of a Dodge Neon somehow closer to God than the driver of a Dodge Viper?
Is an orange robe more spiritual than a tailored Armani suit?
I just don't get the big fear. One can have nice things without worshipping them and one can certainly be poor and constantly dreaming of having fine things while pretending to be holy.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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 Alan Stone
Corpus
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 Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225727 - 01/07/04 11:07 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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It's a generalisation. If you're constantly thinking about material gain, you can't think about anything related to God/spirituality/philosophy.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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DoctorJ
Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225766 - 01/07/04 11:23 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is the driver of a Dodge Neon somehow closer to God than the driver of a Dodge Viper?
I drive a Dodge Neon, and have known a few people who drive Dodge Vipers. most people who have met both me and the viper-drivers would probably say that I am closer to God than they are.
but that doesnt make it a hard and fast rule, or anything.
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Revelation
ॐ
Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,135
Loc: heart cave
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 Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225801 - 01/07/04 11:34 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Because once you touch the inner core of your own and someone else's being you can't be led into thing-fetishes and consumerism.
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Frog
Warrior
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Materialism doesn't offend me, but it doesn't drive me, either. I posted somewhere that I would probably not be considered a success by people who aren't spiritual, or by people who are driven by materialism, but I'm happy.
Either I'm happy and my life is perfect, or I'm delusional and my life is a phuckin' mess. But if I'm delusional, I'd rather imagine that I'm happy than that my life is a mess.
I will keep operating as if I'm going to be successful, materialistically, and if it happens, great. But if not, no big deal. Everything's cool.
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225846 - 01/07/04 11:45 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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> One can have nice things without worshipping them and one can certainly be poor and constantly dreaming of having fine things while pretending to be holy.
For me... the loss of 'nice' things just sort of happened over time. Not that I consider myself to by holy by any stretch of the imagination, but I do live a very simple life. I don't own a TV, or a stereo, or a nice car... I don't have a phone, or even a postal address. As my life has simplified, I simply do not need these things to be happy, and thus I don't buy them. I would much rather spend the evening sitting outside watching the sounds of the ocean rather than dumbing myself in front of the TV.
I don't frown upon people that do have a lot of money, or people that 'worship' materialism. That is the path they wish to take, just as I am on own path. Is one better than the other... I don't know. I am happy, which is what is important to me. (Talk about ego!  )
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Just another spore in the wind.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
#2225872 - 01/07/04 11:52 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not necessarily addressed to Seuss.
One can be happy being fat and lazy, but so what? I think that expressing ourselves as fully as possible in many directions is what life is all about.
Is a concert pianist happier than a amateur hacker? Not necessarily, but he CAN express himself better in that arena.
Is a strong man happier than a weak one? Maybe, maybe not; but he certainly has less limitations in the physical field.
Likewise having more money means you have greater power to express yourself.
Who has the greater capacity to help the homeless (or cause of your choice), you or Bill Gates?
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (01/07/04 11:57 AM)
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DoctorJ
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225886 - 01/07/04 11:54 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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how much money does god have?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Materialism [Re: DoctorJ]
#2225904 - 01/07/04 11:58 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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God (if he exists) has infinite power. Money is merely a representation of one type of power, so if we have more power than we are closer to being God-like.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2225958 - 01/07/04 12:18 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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> One can be happy being fat and lazy
Fat and lazy have nothing to do with it. I know you weren't directing that at me, but I will reply as if you were.  I work every day, except sat. I put in around 11 hours every day at work. I get paid for the work I do, and have a stack of paychecks sitting in my desk that I have never bothered to deposit. Just because my needs are few, doesn't mean that I am lazy. I simply refuse to let money rule my life and my desires. I trust that what I need will be provided, and have not been disapointed.
> Who has the greater capacity to help the homeless (or cause of your choice), you or Bill Gates?
Neither, to be honest. Sure, Bill Gates can give away millions of dollars... but does that really help? So the little girl living in the back alley gets to eat today... what about tomorrow?
> Likewise having more money means you have greater power to express yourself.
... like Ghandi, for example? Or perhaps Mother Teresa?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226031 - 01/07/04 01:30 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why do some of you believe that spiritualism and materialism are somehow mutally exclusive?
I think systems of spirituality generally advise against materialism because it is easier to get trapped inside attachment and take your sense of self from "external" objects if you are more materialistic. Of course this doesnt mean the two are mutually exclusive.
Some people think smoking pot and drinking are mutually exclusive (the fools!) but really its just a matter of balance!
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Always Smi2le
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Panoramix
Getafix
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
#2226051 - 01/07/04 01:39 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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"I trust that what I need will be provided, and have not been disapointed."
Lovely, that. If your needs aren't being met, you can always alter your lifestyle to have fewer needs. Although food's kinda a hard one.
Spiritulaity and materialism aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but they do seem to have an inversely proportional relationship. It depends a certain amount on what definition we're using for materialism, but certainly posession fetishism can only be detrimental to one's mental (or spiritual or whatever) health.
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Don't worry, I'm wrong.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
#2226272 - 01/07/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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... like Ghandi, for example? Or perhaps Mother Teresa?
Please explain to this feeble mind how these people would have been LESS ABLE to express themselves by having a million dollars.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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TrueBrode
Stranger
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226278 - 01/07/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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We are all trying to live doing what makes us happy, and happiness implies some type of sanctuary from the shitty things that go on in the world. A materialistic society chooses to attain sanctuary through a level of material of wealth - each level making things that much more easy, that much more comfortable, and providing more things to distract you with- while a spiritual society seeks refuge from worry through the intangible: themselves, their mind, a god, a cult, etc. They are mutually exclusive in that they are avenues of comfort, though I would throw vices in there as well. Someone that throws back a few before lunchtime rolls around is using the alcohol as their sanctuary from this world and what they have to face.
Chances are, if you have less materials, or less access to materials, you probably find happiness/sanctuary through the non-tangible or vices, and true, if that same poor person sruck it rich they may instantly convert to a material sanctuary. But they are very closely linked in that they are providing the same outcome- comfort. This is not to insinuate that any avenue is better than another, but from my prior experience, a spiritual sanctuary is more rewarding than a material one, the only price is ignorant belief, which I could not continue with.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226396 - 01/07/04 03:56 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I only feel that materialism is not good for spirituality when it is excessive...... I think living a wasteful, excessive lifestyle is not very "spiritual," it can be more distracting from "spirit" than anything at times
hehe at least that's what I notice about living MY wasteful, excessive life 
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Materialism [Re: TrueBrode]
#2226407 - 01/07/04 04:00 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I still fail to see how trading in my Mercedes for a Golf, making minimum wage instead of $150K, selling my penthouse suite and living in a trailer and buying off-the-rack suits will make me more spiritual.
Guess I shouldn't encourage kids here to go to college because *gasp* they will make more money on average and increase their likelihood of falling into the eternal dark abyss.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (01/07/04 04:02 PM)
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226469 - 01/07/04 04:21 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I feel if everybody had giant estates and drove hummers and ate like a king every meal, we'd run out of room and suck the planet dry in no time.
hehe I suppose you could still live a spiritual life, but there'd be no great-grandchildren to be spiritual in the future..
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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With so many Americans being overweight the planet is out of balance and starting to wobble. Watch what happens next!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226490 - 01/07/04 04:26 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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yeah ok bye
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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE
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SpecialEd
+ one
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226520 - 01/07/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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So your point is the two aren't mutually exclusive.
I like the idea that
Virtuous people love people and use things.
Bad people love things and use people.
And you are right, there are people on every end of the financial spectrum that worship material possesions and do not appreciate people.
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"Plus one upvote +1..."
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/l_l\/
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GazzBut
Refraction
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226529 - 01/07/04 04:40 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Please explain to this feeble mind how these people would have been LESS ABLE to express themselves by having a million dollars.
Perhaps the point is they didnt actually need money to express themselves more clearly and to more people than most millionaires could ever hope to.
Although I bet Mother Teresa had a few quid behind her to help her on her holy missions!
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Always Smi2le
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226546 - 01/07/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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A person could drive a Corvette and wear designer clothes and still be enlightened. They just wouldn't be attached to those objects.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Positronius
playboy
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the rules of enlightenment.
I wonder who made up these rules?
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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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I would say that Siddhartha Guatama(sp?) "discovered" the way to enlightenment. There may be other ways, but he discovered one of them.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Alan Stone
Corpus
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The non-enlightened, when describing their mothers, who had collectively commited suicide after receiving yoga teachings from the former head of a crime syndicate.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
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Positronius
playboy
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silversoul : "I would say that Siddhartha Guatama(sp?) "discovered" the way to enlightenment. There may be other ways, but he discovered one of them."
there may be other ways....no, not just "may be" there ARE, in fact, there are an infinite number of ways. Siddhartha discovered his own path to enlightenment, thats all.
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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll
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Frog
Warrior
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2226773 - 01/07/04 06:40 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I went to court today for another attorney on a criminal matter. It turns out it was a little rougher of a case than he expected, and I had to go to San Diego 6 times, whereas normally it might have been handled in 3 appearances.
Today, before I left, he told me to "handle it", or in other words, resolve it today, no matter what it took. Or in further words, it didn't matter what happened to the client. Fuck 'em. Now the client's problems are eating into the profit, or something.
The way I view a case, I charge what it's worth, but I do whatever it takes to get the best for my client, even if it means I underestimated the case and end up eating it.
The way my friend views a case is as a money making venture.
So it started me thinking a little about this thread, about how some of us think we have to avoid money to be spiritual, and some of us completely eschew the spiritual in our question for material gain.
But at what point does it affect someone else in the quest for material gain? Where's the balance?
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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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TrueBrode
Stranger
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 287
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2227068 - 01/07/04 09:29 PM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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I still fail to see how trading in my Mercedes for a Golf, making minimum wage instead of $150K, selling my penthouse suite and living in a trailer and buying off-the-rack suits will make me more spiritual.
Well, if you ask me, it will not. The point of my post was to point out why people see spirituality and materialism as a duality, and thus mutually exclusive.
But anyways, to address that response, if you traded in all that stuff and took up the life of being poor, then you are rejecting materials for your sanctuary, which does not lead to spirituality, but it may lead you to seek that sanctuary/happiness/comfort through means that we consider to be spiritual- inner strength, religion etc.
If you want to get into why it is proper to trade in that mercedes, we would be off on the topic of decadence and its nature.
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enotake2
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2227514 - 01/08/04 04:10 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
God (if he exists) has infinite power. Money is merely a representation of one type of power, so if we have more power than we are closer to being God-like.
I dunno. A big part of what satisfies me spiritually is doing art. But I don't need a great deal of money to buy good art materials. If I have enough money to buy the art materials I have the power to be spiritually fullfilled. Having more art materials would not make me more powerful as I have what I need to acheive what I want with the money I make now! In fact, if I worked more to make more money I would not have the time to do my artwork. Money is a means to an end, and in my case I am more powerful with less money.
Also, your time has value. If you can do a job you enjoy - that is great, but if spend all of your time doing something you dislike or that is meaningless - that is antithetical to spiritual fullfillment.
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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium
"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
#2227665 - 01/08/04 07:38 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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> Please explain to this feeble mind how these people [ghandi, m.teresa] would have been LESS ABLE to express themselves by having a million dollars.
I don't know how their lives would have been different had they had lots of money. What I do know is that they did more without any money than most other people, rich or poor.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
#2227799 - 01/08/04 09:09 AM (19 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
What I do know is that they did more without any money than most other people, rich or poor.
This is because other people provided the means for their living.
Anyways, spirituality resides in your mind and flows out into the world through your actions. Its about addictions and what is motivating you...
Its suspossed to be about freeing one's mind from barriers, it is about being free. Material possessions. Does having them cut off your spirituality? Not unless you make them....
Some people are motivated by the need for bigger faster newer more more more. Just as the fanatical Muslims blowing up buildings doesn't say anything about Islam, these people don't say anything about whether or not it is wrong to have material possessions.
All we need is whatever is necessary to sustain our life and to pass the gift of life on. Draw the line for what is needed there, and the rest is just preference.. choice...
Anyways, I'm a musician, and I prefer to have top knotch equipment. It frees up struggling with the equipment and allows me to put my focus on creating and peforming music when I have good quality shiznit.
It makes me think of reading something once where some guy was in India with the guru and his followers, and they were using land rovers or dune buggies or whatever to travel around.... hhhhm...... 
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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