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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Materialism
    #2225710 - 01/07/04 01:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This is another spin-off thread.

Why do some of you believe that spiritualism and materialism are somehow mutally exclusive?

Is the driver of a Dodge Neon somehow closer to God than the driver of a Dodge Viper?

Is an orange robe more spiritual than a tailored Armani suit?

I just don't get the big fear. One can have nice things without worshipping them and one can certainly be poor and constantly dreaming of having fine things while pretending to be holy.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225727 - 01/07/04 01:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

It's a generalisation. If you're constantly thinking about material gain, you can't think about anything related to God/spirituality/philosophy.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225766 - 01/07/04 01:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Is the driver of a Dodge Neon somehow closer to God than the driver of a Dodge Viper?




I drive a Dodge Neon, and have known a few people who drive Dodge Vipers. most people who have met both me and the viper-drivers would probably say that I am closer to God than they are.

but that doesnt make it a hard and fast rule, or anything.


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225801 - 01/07/04 01:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Because once you touch the inner core of your own and someone else's being you can't be led into thing-fetishes and consumerism.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Materialism [Re: Revelation]
    #2225820 - 01/07/04 01:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Materialism doesn't offend me, but it doesn't drive me, either. I posted somewhere that I would probably not be considered a success by people who aren't spiritual, or by people who are driven by materialism, but I'm happy.

Either I'm happy and my life is perfect, or I'm delusional and my life is a phuckin' mess. But if I'm delusional, I'd rather imagine that I'm happy than that my life is a mess.

I will keep operating as if I'm going to be successful, materialistically, and if it happens, great. But if not, no big deal. Everything's cool.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225846 - 01/07/04 01:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> One can have nice things without worshipping them and one can certainly be poor and constantly dreaming of having fine things while pretending to be holy.

For me... the loss of 'nice' things just sort of happened over time.  Not that I consider myself to by holy by any stretch of the imagination, but I do live a very simple life.  I don't own a TV, or a stereo, or a nice car... I don't have a phone, or even a postal address.  As my life has simplified, I simply do not need these things to be happy, and thus I don't buy them.  I would much rather spend the evening sitting outside watching the sounds of the ocean rather than dumbing myself in front of the TV.

I don't frown upon people that do have a lot of money, or people that 'worship' materialism.  That is the path they wish to take, just as I am on own path.  Is one better than the other... I don't know.  I am happy, which is what is important to me.  (Talk about ego!  :grin:)


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
    #2225872 - 01/07/04 01:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Not necessarily addressed to Seuss.

One can be happy being fat and lazy, but so what? I think that expressing ourselves as fully as possible in many directions is what life is all about.

Is a concert pianist happier than a amateur hacker? Not necessarily, but he CAN express himself better in that arena.

Is a strong man happier than a weak one? Maybe, maybe not; but he certainly has less limitations in the physical field.

Likewise having more money means you have greater power to express yourself.

Who has the greater capacity to help the homeless (or cause of your choice), you or Bill Gates?


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The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (01/07/04 01:57 PM)


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225886 - 01/07/04 01:54 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

how much money does god have?


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Materialism [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2225904 - 01/07/04 01:58 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

God (if he exists) has infinite power. Money is merely a representation of one type of power, so if we have more power than we are closer to being God-like.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2225958 - 01/07/04 02:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> One can be happy being fat and lazy

Fat and lazy have nothing to do with it.  I know you weren't directing that at me, but I will reply as if you were.  :smile:  I work every day, except sat.  I put in around 11 hours every day at work.  I get paid for the work I do, and have a stack of paychecks sitting in my desk that I have never bothered to deposit.  Just because my needs are few, doesn't mean that I am lazy.  I simply refuse to let money rule my life and my desires.  I trust that what I need will be provided, and have not been disapointed.

> Who has the greater capacity to help the homeless (or cause of your choice), you or Bill Gates?

Neither, to be honest.  Sure, Bill Gates can give away millions of dollars... but does that really help?  So the little girl living in the back alley gets to eat today... what about tomorrow?

> Likewise having more money means you have greater power to express yourself.

... like Ghandi, for example?  Or perhaps Mother Teresa?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226031 - 01/07/04 03:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Why do some of you believe that spiritualism and materialism are somehow mutally exclusive?





I think systems of spirituality generally advise against materialism because it is easier to get trapped inside attachment and take your sense of self from "external" objects if you are more materialistic. Of course this doesnt mean the two are mutually exclusive.
Some people think smoking pot and drinking are mutually exclusive (the fools!) but really its just a matter of balance!


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Always Smi2le


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
    #2226051 - 01/07/04 03:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"I trust that what I need will be provided, and have not been disapointed."
Lovely, that. If your needs aren't being met, you can always alter your lifestyle to have fewer needs. Although food's kinda a hard one.

Spiritulaity and materialism aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but they do seem to have an inversely proportional relationship. It depends a certain amount on what definition we're using for materialism, but certainly posession fetishism can only be detrimental to one's mental (or spiritual or whatever) health.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

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Re: Materialism [Re: Seuss]
    #2226272 - 01/07/04 04:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

... like Ghandi, for example? Or perhaps Mother Teresa?

Please explain to this feeble mind how these people would have been LESS ABLE to express themselves by having a million dollars.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226278 - 01/07/04 05:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

We are all trying to live doing what makes us happy, and happiness implies some type of sanctuary from the shitty things that go on in the world. A materialistic society chooses to attain sanctuary through a level of material of wealth - each level making things that much more easy, that much more comfortable, and providing more things to distract you with- while a spiritual society seeks refuge from worry through the intangible: themselves, their mind, a god, a cult, etc. They are mutually exclusive in that they are avenues of comfort, though I would throw vices in there as well. Someone that throws back a few before lunchtime rolls around is using the alcohol as their sanctuary from this world and what they have to face.

Chances are, if you have less materials, or less access to materials, you probably find happiness/sanctuary through the non-tangible or vices, and true, if that same poor person sruck it rich they may instantly convert to a material sanctuary. But they are very closely linked in that they are providing the same outcome- comfort. This is not to insinuate that any avenue is better than another, but from my prior experience, a spiritual sanctuary is more rewarding than a material one, the only price is ignorant belief, which I could not continue with.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226396 - 01/07/04 05:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I only feel that materialism is not good for spirituality when it is excessive...... I think living a wasteful, excessive lifestyle is not very "spiritual," it can be more distracting from "spirit" than anything at times

hehe at least that's what I notice about living MY wasteful, excessive life :wink:


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Materialism [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2226407 - 01/07/04 06:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I still fail to see how trading in my Mercedes for a Golf, making minimum wage instead of $150K, selling my penthouse suite and living in a trailer and buying off-the-rack suits will make me more spiritual.

Guess I shouldn't encourage kids here to go to college because *gasp* they will make more money on average and increase their likelihood of falling into the eternal dark abyss.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Edited by Swami (01/07/04 06:02 PM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226469 - 01/07/04 06:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I feel if everybody had giant estates and drove hummers and ate like a king every meal, we'd run out of room and suck the planet dry in no time.

hehe I suppose you could still live a spiritual life, but there'd be no great-grandchildren to be spiritual in the future..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Materialism [Re: Strumpling]
    #2226487 - 01/07/04 06:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

With so many Americans being overweight the planet is out of balance and starting to wobble. Watch what happens next!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226490 - 01/07/04 06:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yeah ok bye


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Materialism [Re: Swami]
    #2226520 - 01/07/04 06:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

So your point is the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I like the idea that

Virtuous people love people and use things.
Bad people love things and use people.

And you are right, there are people on every end of the financial spectrum that worship material possesions and do not appreciate people.


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----


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