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ballsalsa
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Help me improve on this concept
#22256752 - 09/18/15 03:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is my dream project. Now rip it apart and tell me why it won't work
The Salton Basin is an area of low desert with saline groundwater, available geothermal, wind, and solar power, cheap real estate prices, and abundant sunny days.
In my proposed aquaculture system, saline groundwater would be pumped and fed into a pond system before being directed back to ground. Excess nitrates would be removed biologically by either mangroves, or (more lucratively) giant kelp. The remaining nitrates and sunshine would allow for abundant phytoplankton growth, thereby providing a basis for high bio-production within the system. culture cages could be utilized for shrimp production which would allow for decreased mortality from predation by other denizens of the system. The primary outputs of the aquaculture system would be shrimp, california halibut(or maybe cortez halibut), and byproducts of kelp. The primary input costs would be in the intitial construction of the pond and shrimp hatchery faciilties, as well as ongoing equipment maintainence and initial bio-stocking costs. The energy necessary for running massive pumps 24 hours a day, would be derived from solar and wind primarily,(which are both abundant and reliable in the region) with geothermal production possible at a later time.(also available in the region) Of course, these means of energy production represent another initial equipment expenditure. This facility could be built in partnership with a university or marine research organization and used as a controlled research facility. Here is a crude diagram that i drew a couple years ago.(it needs to be updated badly)

what do you guys think? could be done? should be done? will never happen? bad idea?
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Edited by ballsalsa (10/30/15 12:22 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22257485 - 09/18/15 06:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#22257623 - 09/18/15 07:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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your trying to grow halibut and giant kelp in a salt pond in the middle of the desert? no oysters? Idk this sounds more redic than my skyscraper farm dewd.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
#22257642 - 09/18/15 07:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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urban aquaponics is the future for certain crops that lend themselves to that production method. Even then, in places like california, it would be more economical to go vertical in large greenhouses. However, when it comes to marine life, the ocean cannot sustain the rising demand. Only through controlled inland marine environments will it be possible to supply things like shrimp and fish in the future
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koraks
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22258771 - 09/19/15 01:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sounds like a plausible idea. You could try and run a feasibility analysis on it to see how much capital it would require and what the expected revenues would be. Most likely it eont be economically feasible without some form of subsidies, but as a research facility it might work.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: koraks]
#22259411 - 09/19/15 09:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah, i wish i knew how to run a feasibility analysis. I can tell you right off the bat that the initial input costs would be very high. It would also take years to ramp up to maximum bio-production. Of course, the initial formation of the controlled ecology would be the most interesting research aspect.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22288129 - 09/25/15 12:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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for great justice
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Patlal
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22288362 - 09/25/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am not sufficiently competent and educated in that field to know if this is a good or bad idea.
You used big words and drew up something, therefore it must be realistic.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Patlal]
#22289957 - 09/25/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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ARGH! thats the opposite of tearing the idea a new asshole. try again!
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Mescalean
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22289987 - 09/25/15 08:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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1st problem bud, what is the salinity of the water measuring at, is it habitable for the animals? If you took a flounder and tossed it in something as saline as the dead sea.... lol. Something with too little salt and it will perish too. (from someone who has kept salt water/reef aquariums for yeaaaars)
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orison
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22289998 - 09/25/15 08:19 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ive been talking about aqueduct systems in California for a long time. but again I dont know what the fuck Im talking about.. however in my imagination bringing seawater in and hosting it in the desert somewhere building large reservoirs desalination fish farming rice and blah blah other water barring food source ... seems like a monumental and crazy idea.
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Detached
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22290005 - 09/25/15 08:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: ARGH! thats the opposite of tearing the idea a new asshole. try again!
It's a good idea
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Mescalean]
#22290044 - 09/25/15 08:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mescalean said: 1st problem bud, what is the salinity of the water measuring at, is it habitable for the animals? If you took a flounder and tossed it in something as saline as the dead sea.... lol. Something with too little salt and it will perish too. (from someone who has kept salt water/reef aquariums for yeaaaars)
good point. thats actually part of the reason for an evap pond. the initial salinity of the groundwater is somewhat less than the ocean. the idea would be to evap some water away, and re-add the now higher salinity water to the system. still, acclimation ponds of gradually increasing salinity might be necessary for the initial stocking, and perhaps for the shrimp larvae at all times.
Thanks!
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: orison]
#22290068 - 09/25/15 08:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
orison319 said: Ive been talking about aqueduct systems in California for a long time. but again I dont know what the fuck Im talking about.. however in my imagination bringing seawater in and hosting it in the desert somewhere building large reservoirs desalination fish farming rice and blah blah other water barring food source ... seems like a monumental and crazy idea.
true. thats why i chose the salton basin, an area with extant saline groundwater from having been flooded out by the colorado river(pretty salty for fresh water) several times throughout history, and then evaporated. It is also full of agricultural runoff which is part of why it is saline and high in nitrates. Also, keep in mind that in my system no water is desalinated, but rather, simply directed back into the ground from whence it came
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MysticMoteToter



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Re: Tear this idea a new asshole [Re: ballsalsa]
#22290113 - 09/25/15 08:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Arcata Marsh in Humboldt County does a similar thing where it takes the excess nutrients from the converging rivers and diverts it through a manmade marsh with ecosystems capable of rebalancing the nutrients from the river runoff. Sounds doable to me but it'd be expensive, especially in the Salton area because its much more south and also inland. It'd be harder for the habitat you established to survive but i wouldn't think its impossible. but i'm not an expert, but i like how you think we need more people thinking like this
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The Moose
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22290120 - 09/25/15 08:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are you doing a "Save the Salton Sea" thing?
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ballsalsa
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i chose the salton basin because of the amazing bioproduction of the salton sea despite having absolutely no stewardship. Even today, that nasty smelling lake churns out tons of tilapia. 15 years ago, the bottom was paved with 10-30 lb orange mouth corvina (which are delicious btw) at a depth of 10-15 ft. part of that success was from an accidental introduction of black mollies to the sea where they had a massive population explosion and provided ample food for everything else in the system. I was there once when the mollies were spawning, and you could have walked across their backs. anyway, i've always wondered what someone could do if they tried something similar with intent.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: The Moose]
#22290159 - 09/25/15 08:59 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Moose said: Are you doing a "Save the Salton Sea" thing?
no, i would locate my facility at an elevation greater than that of the sea. the salton sea is already dead. theres no saving it now
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ReposadoXochipilli
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22290698 - 09/25/15 10:33 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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way way too much salt... only solution i can see is digging an inlet to the baja
also the main issue with the "sea" is all the fertilizers and what not that is concentrated in there. and well, east/south valley in general.
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ReposadoXochipilli
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also once the algae bloom all the fish suffocate and it is a mess, can smell it for many many miles.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Quote:
ReposadoXochipilli said: also the main issue with the "sea" is all the fertilizers and what not that is concentrated in there. and well, east/south valley in general.
it is this very agricultural runoff that my plan takes advantage of. Giant Kelp(Macrocystis pyrifera) grows super fast, and is restricted in range by water temp. except that its not the temp that causes the restriction per se, but rather the lower nutrient levels associated with warmer waters in the ocean. That being said, i feel like temp is the variable i'm not sure how to account for yet. on the one hand, we're talking about a body of water in the hot ass desert sun. On the other hand, there would be constant cycle of pumped groundwater entering the system, and its likely to be a stable cool temp. i'm not sure where the sweet spot would lay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrocystis_pyrifera
Quote:
M. pyrifera has been utilized for many years as a food source;[18][19] it also contains many compounds such as iodine, potassium, other minerals vitamins and carbohydrates and thus has also used as a dietary supplement.[20][21] In the beginning of the 20th century California kelp beds were harvested as a source for soda ash.[18][22][23] With commercial interest increasing significantly during the 1970s and the 1980s this was primarily due to the production of alginates, and also for biomass production for animal feed due to the energy crisis during that period.[22][23][24] However the commercial production of M. pyrifera never became reality. With the end of the energy crisis and the decline in prices of alginates, the research into farming Macrocystis also declined.[19]
The demand for M. pyrifera is increasing due to the newfound uses of these plants such as fertilizers, cultivation for bioremediation purposes, abalone and sea urchin feed.[19][25] There is current research going into utilizing M. pyrifera as feed for other aquaculture species such as shrimps.[25][26] Recently, M. pyrifera has been examined as a possible feedstock for conversion into ethanol for biofuel use.[27]
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22291978 - 09/26/15 06:41 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: ARGH! thats the opposite of tearing the idea a new asshole. try again!
Well, I'm not gonna pretend I know what I'm talking about either...
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nice1returns
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Re: Tear this idea a new asshole [Re: ballsalsa]
#22292125 - 09/26/15 07:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like the idea and I like intelligent posts in the pub.
I won't pick it apart just give a thumbs up not only for thinking but for asking it to be picked apart. This sort of thinking is what we need to move forward in this world. If this is what I think it is, Self sustainable eco friendly solutions to mankinds problems then I can only praise you.
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Asante
Mage


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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22292133 - 09/26/15 07:59 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
for great justice
For great justice
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Asante]
#22292392 - 09/26/15 09:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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awesome, i have convinced strangers on the internet. now i have to convince the gov't, a bank or two, and a university.
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Cj-B
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22292654 - 09/26/15 10:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I dunno anything about the aquaponics, but I distinctly recall seeing a similar setup on Doomsday Preppers a long time ago that seemed like it was pretty effective. It was pretty much one of the only reasonably intelligent preppers I've ever seen on that show. I'm fairly certain it was this guy.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Cj-B]
#22302464 - 09/28/15 11:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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i've thought about renting pool/yard space from old folk around LA to use as modular aquaponic farms. It would be a good deal for everyone really. Most people pay someone to maintain their pool, but never actually go for a swim (especially older people) People on fixed incomes could actually use their pool and yard space to generate some income while eliminating gardening and pool maintenance bills.
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Roostertail

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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22302470 - 09/28/15 11:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thought about something different. Aquaponic gardens with trout in the water.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Roostertail]
#22302504 - 09/28/15 11:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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trout could be done, but they require low water temps. in some places thats easy to do, in other places you would have to run massive chillers to cool the water. also, trout require pretty good current.
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lets drive around
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Patlal]
#22302542 - 09/28/15 12:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: I am not sufficiently competent and educated in that field to know if this is a good or bad idea.
You used big words and drew up something, therefore it must be realistic.
Lol this^^
OP is this something that you can see becoming profitable in the long run or would this just be like a hobby/experiment/...? I think 99.9% of people starting their own business are looking to make a profit in the long run, or at least break even when all is said and done. Even the CEO's and employees of "non profit organizations" still get payed one way or another. 15% sure that the CEO's of such organizations actually don't keep some of the profits to themselves.
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Beanhead
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Roostertail]
#22302606 - 09/28/15 12:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Roostertail said: I thought about something different. Aquaponic gardens with trout in the water.
I need this in my life
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: lets drive around] 1
#22302658 - 09/28/15 12:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
lets drive around said:
OP is this something that you can see becoming profitable in the long run or would this just be like a hobby/experiment/...? I think 99.9% of people starting their own business are looking to make a profit in the long run, or at least break even when all is said and done.
If the experiment was successful, and i could establish something resembling my hypothetical ecosystem, there is no doubt in my mind about the long term profitablility of this project. After initial investment, there is very little input cost. Thats the whole point. Low input, high output farming of desirable bio materials (fish, shrimp, and kelp). If i had initial success, there is no reason that i couldn't expand into oyster and/or abalone production as well. (except perhaps temperature restrictions, i would have to research that a bit)
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lets drive around
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22302948 - 09/28/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right on brother! Sounds like you have a semi plan going. Possibly a very good one too. I say go with it, if you can get the funds for a start up.
:illbemonitoringthisthread:
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ballsalsa
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Quote:
lets drive around said: if you can get the funds for a start up.
One day! That's why i'm going to school. I figure having credentials might give me some credibility with banks, or at least with the dept of agriculture(gotta get those ag grants son!)
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lets drive around
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22308115 - 09/29/15 12:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
lets drive around said: if you can get the funds for a start up.
One day! That's why i'm going to school. I figure having credentials might give me some credibility with banks, or at least with the dept of agriculture(gotta get those ag grants son!)
Having credentials/education is great but that won't get you a loan man.
What will get you a loan is having good credit. I'm sure you already know that, but if you don't that's the most important part when trying to qualify to borrow any sort of money from a bank.
I'm sure you could possibly quallify for grants, which will help but the initial start up cost of any small business is a decent chunk of money.
My dad has his own business, and it's a lot different than what you are trying to do (its a machine shop). I don't know the exact figures, but I would say him and his business partner borrowed around 100k to start up, and that was back in 89.
How good is your credit OP?
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ballsalsa
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Not good enough. certainly not good enough for the 10 million or more i would need to build this facility. It won't happen unless i can partner with a university and get some big Ag Grants/Research Grants
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22453417 - 10/30/15 12:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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bumping for advice on attracting investment
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Beanhead
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: ballsalsa]
#22453595 - 10/30/15 01:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Kickstarter, Patreon, dedicate a website on it, get on facebook/twitter and follow other companies/people who are interested
I did this with programming, development, gaming and it's absurd the job offers & free shit I get.
You reap what you sow.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Intensive/Extensive marine aquaculture pond(s) [Re: Beanhead]
#22453663 - 10/30/15 01:46 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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LogicaL Chaos
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Re: Help me improve on this concept [Re: ballsalsa]
#22453822 - 10/30/15 02:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sounds fesiable.
how are u going to fund this huge project?
All the drilling and exacating is going to cost a shit ton of money.
I think you might run into issues of the main pond being underfilled or overfilled from the well and likely from evaporation.
Also, what if the well dries up? You would be pretty screwed at that point.
and is there predatory birds nearby? Might wanna train some hawks too.
Other than those things, u are good to go!
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ballsalsa
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The Salton Basin is a natural drainage with ample groundwater(and quite saline at that) so i'm not terribly worried about the wells running dry.
The biggest hurdle is funding as you pointed out. The excavation and drilling will cost a pretty penny, but the biggest cost is going to be equipment. pumps, solar panels, windmills, flashers and noise makers to keep the birds at bay, shrimp culture cages, several boats, aerators, water chemistry probes and a computer system to monitor them, huge freezers, trucks to move the seafood. the list goes on.
Even with full funding, there are environmental impact reports etc. to deal with as well.
One day...
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