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Offlineakira_akuma
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who's read the Exorcist?
    #22253130 - 09/17/15 08:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

and what was your impressions of it?

i remember towards the end of the book getting so into it, i felt a heavy weighing down of energy around me, and was getting so hot (it was the tail end of winter) i had to take my shirt off it was getting so uncomfortable.

i never had a book physically effect me with heeby-jeeby's before.

"I am Legion" - this is one of the best descriptions of the Devil ever, and it was aptly missing from the movie, due to it being a confounding prospect to probably most average moviegoer's to understand...but of course it has some clarification KarrasUGH MERRIN gives to Damien - "There is only one."

simply creepy.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 08:43 PM)


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OfflineDilsnique
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22254925 - 09/18/15 07:50 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Never read the whole book before, but I remember being a youngster in a library and picking a copy of the book up and randomly opening to a page and reading the word "fuck" for the first time in a book.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22256673 - 09/18/15 03:16 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I read it before the movie came out.  Not as creepy as the movie.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22256782 - 09/18/15 03:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

sure. there was some deliberate steps to make it scarier, first off, there wasn't a clarification as in the book over whether the possibility that it could be the girl making it all up, the only thing in the movie is the Oujia board. two, they don't acknowledge the depth of the instance of Demonology and whether it's Devil as the Devil or as Legion or as another demon posing as the Devil; i mean it's touched on briefly in the film but only at that. of course things in the movie are cut up to make a more dire event out of the scenario, but i find it's pretty cut and dry...they don't tell the audience about Damien's mother's prostitution (hence, your mother sucks cocks in HELL!), they don't dabble in any of the research that Damien does other then the review of the tape, played backwards (of course missing the reference to Legion; the sum of all the demonic sourced into one sole force of ie the Devil, Satan, as KarrasMERRIN briefly touches on "there's only one"). they make the girl older too, for obvious reasons...but the fact that the girl is only 6 in the book, in my opinion, makes it much scarier, for that.

the book explores more themes and is obviously less about "the devil has her ohno!" and more about "is this just her reacting to her mom and dad's divorce, reading religious books from the psychic whom visited during the party (also exempt from the film), and perhaps getting it in her head that she can feign possession to get attention" ect ect, there are all sorts of extra thematic qualities that would detract from the exacting and terrifying and dire nature of events, because of course there is more room for downtime...also the detective gets almost no development on screen, and his parts are some of the best in the book, along with the research Damien does to 'believe what he sees' himself, which again is the whole point of the book...is it real or is it exaggerated? also the drug addicted daughter of Krause is missing too from the film.

all these things make a much more interesting premise to questioning "if it was real then we're fucked" i mean, why does all this happen? why? because if the devil can do away with one good priest (notice the priest whom has rationality and science on his side) then it's all worth it, to torture the girl and her family, it's not so one sided then, when you think about it it's a very scary premise in and of itself right there.

sure it's not as 'visceral' as the film...in THAT sense the film is scarier, because it seems all the more real, and that whether the devil is really there or not, even though it's touched on subtly. it could just be a very scary spirit from the Ouija board that is tormenting and lying to them, but KarrasMERRIN confirms that it is in fact the Devil as is told, because he 'knows' that's the modus operandi of Satan, he tricks you into thinking as it were that 'the devil doesn't really exist' just to manipulate and effect people and as KarrasMERRIN says to bring humans down a notch, essentially.

granted, the film is very very close to the book so it's almost moot to say that one is "better" than the other, it just really depends on what medium serves the audience the best. the film is obviously more graphic and more visceral and more scary in that respect; but the book is more, and i mean much more, iconoclastic in it's approach, a story to really rattle people's faith; while the film only affirms people's faith.

which is really more horrifying in THAT regard?

PS: i've had two x-large coffees.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 09:09 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22257151 - 09/18/15 05:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I seem to recall that the name of the demon was Pazuzu


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22257239 - 09/18/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

correct. but the question is in the air....

Karras says there is only one and in the tapes it specifically states I am Legion, so you have to wonder...is this some trickster evil? or is this simply how the Devil does his work, through attrition...and if so, it accounts for everything all the same.* that is to say, that the whole effort of the Devil here is to confuse (as KarrasMERRIN says) and to convince and to have believer's deny that it is, in fact, The Devil. that's "it's" pursuit; and it depends what you believe theologically, in that end, whether you attribute the events to a sole demon out of the order of demons, OR that it is all one Devil all the same.

he managed to torment, and lead to two priests death, this and then slinks away as if it wasn't really ya know, THAT evil, because hey if it's the big guy "the Devil" then why wouldn't he do more damage; well, because "it's" greatest asset is convincing the world that the Devil never existed; and it's a win-win for "it", to have gotten them to be delivered out of the waking world, and to have shaken the beliefs and tormented the family of the girl, in the process, which is the whole point; leaving them vulnerable in the waking world. it might strengthen their individual belief's but in the long run no one will believe them anyways if they said "hey my kid was possessed by the Devil, true story"...which is what the audience is left with...do you believe or not, and if so (if you do believe), what are you gonna do about it? (and if you don't, then it's just a scary story with a grandiose theosophical lining)

that's the whole point.

the story leaves you with every conceivable notion of 'it's not as bad as "it was the Devil"' while totally giving the ample opportunity and possibility that it actually might've been.

PS: and all of this surrounds the events of the family and housekeeping having their own sins which make "fertile ground" for the engaging of them by "it"; that along with the inserted "possibilities" of it all being "in the girls mind", again, as grounds for dismissal towards the end of whether it was "it" or just superstition, that induced the attacks.

it's rather brilliant.

*edit

PPS: and of course if it was all Pazuzu, i guess that can be almost as frightening, because this demon knows how to play on all of these fears and notions together as if it's quite aware of theological problems itself. if that's the case it poses the question "are all demons sourced from the same evil, or is the same evil sourced from any and all individual demons", and the answer, no matter which direction you go, is a scary one.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 09:15 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22257355 - 09/18/15 06:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

if you think about what i'm saying, you can see that there is a greater message here than "the possession", and that is "what is a believer to do about something that cannot be attacked, countermanded, or evaded".

I CALL UPON YE ZAPPA TO PROPOSITION A RETORT, THE POWER OF AKIRA COMPELS YOU!


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 06:35 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22257504 - 09/18/15 06:52 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The meaning of "I am legion" is "I am many".  But the devil, and by extension his mnions, are liars.  And nice quote from the Usual Suspects.

I do not think there is any message here other than entertainment.  If you look for depth in shallow water you might break your neck diving in.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22257758 - 09/18/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

i wouldn't really call it a message, per se, it's the wrong wording...it's more of a meaning to perhaps take from it.

it's just good writing. the open endedness of it, all the while tying up loose ends too.

and that's the thing, if it's the work of one (regardless if KarrasMERRIN is speaking metaphorically or literally), or if it's the work of many, under one, or without rule at all; either or, the meaning to take from all of the above, in my opinion, is that questioning/shaking of belief, beyond the actual possession, and whether that's the sole intent of the "demon".

the message if there was any, i'd say, would be a question, as it follows; "what is a believer to do about something that cannot be attacked, countermanded, or evaded".

as you said, the devil and his minions are liars, so it's not important what their aim's are before first and foremost the confusion at the outset, and the belittling of the faithful.

"is this a real thing, or are we just being stupid".

well, if this occurrence ever happened upon whomever, believer or non-believer, you'd have not only your sanity but also your beliefs, whatever they are, called into question. the book/film is not so much about theology, unless your religious that is, but it is about beliefs. the film however does not address that nearly as much as the book does, which i think was the main point of the book; thus of course the film is scarier in that the film assumes "it's real". the book though makes us question.

and do you think that's shallow? to me it's more entertaining to be posed an imponderable question, the presupposition of the innate over the probable in terms of an ultimate evil.

PS: Kobayashi is Söze! does fucking Spacey look Hungarian to you!?

BWAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 08:40 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22257860 - 09/18/15 08:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Spacey could pass as Hungarian.  Isn't Kobayashi the lawyer?

I think it was a test of faith.  I am not entirely sure Karras passed.  I know he was severely shaken.  Not so much in his belief that the supernatural is real but that he can do anything about evil.  In the end they saved the girl but at what cost?  Who won?  Was Regan just the vessel to get to the priests and destroy them?  If so it worked brilliantly.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22257932 - 09/18/15 08:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

THAT's IT, that's what i think, that the girl was used to get to the priests; attrition, notch one for the bad guys, we took out two priests today!

because if it was just a matter of possessing the girl, other than ruining the families life for a short while, it accomplishes nothing other than to get attention, which can only strengthen people's resolve to fight it, as opposed to let it reign over them and renouncing God (the idea here being that humans are lost without "him", and will renounce "him" naturally in a world that's blighted with iniquity and where no one knows it's "true cause", as it would all be told that it's just the natural state of things, thus abandoning God).

but if you slowly kill off the faithful, those with the power to do away with this "evil", then eventually people can be controlled which is what the goal is, to take control of people and take them away from God by their own free will, by their own ill-concern for the contempt of evil.

KarrasMerrin! (goddamn my confusion of names!) is mortal, and cannot fight forever but this evil lasts for eternity; and Damien, well he's left with the most confounding decision, does he do away with the demon which is in Regan or does he do away with himself in order to save her? the demon's won already. ("I think it was a test of faith.  I am not entirely sure Karras passed.  I know he was severely shaken.  Not so much in his belief that the supernatural is real but that he can do anything about evil." - it is a test of his faith, and i don't know if he passes either [no one does; that's the point]. it seems rather futile. but maybe he is the martyr here, or the lamb if you will. he sacrifices himself in order to save Regan, and even though that's giving into the demon's litany of futility and arrogance to God's graces, it's still putting faith in God's power over all else. it's still giving faith in God to instead of tearing him asunder and letting him be a pawn in all of this, [he's only] becoming an ascendant into heaven.)

if he kills her in his anger, he is killing the only vestige of God's power, and that is innocence; if he kills himself, he's only ridding the world of a what the demon wants rid from it.

and Kobayashi is the lawyer but...you gotta ask yourself, who gave him the name Kobayashi? it wasn't himself.

(the con man convinces the police that "the lawyer" is impartial, and all the blame goes on himself, as it seems he's Söze, but really he's just a scapegoat, provided for Söze whom is Kobayashi. Kobayashi is never given a proper evaluation in the film! people say it's frigging Spacey, but they never think to question why Kobayashi is a given at all. PS: Spacey is OFF THE BOAT when his partner is shot by Söze. if it was any other way, then how would his partner not be able to account for him being on the boat? when does he have time to enshroud himself and sneak attack Keaton?)

PS: and yes, maybe none of this is really considered at first, for the Exorcist, but hey, all things considered, whether it was purely entertainment or not, the congruities satisfy a greater meaning other than just "running with a good story", which just enhances the book/film. :smile: it also lends to the speculation that words are more powerful than say...Demons...or God alike.


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 09:05 PM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22258106 - 09/18/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In the end they saved the girl but at what cost?  Who won?  Was Regan just the vessel to get to the priests and destroy them?  If so it worked brilliantly.




basically, all other things aside, this was my main point. no matter what you take from teh discussion here, that's what i want ze audience to take the most from here...that there is a balance here, and that balance gets reset, if you will, by the futility of it all. the demon wins, AND God wins, and people are left with a question; not just of is it real or not (which is another speculation that i think it important too, but...) but more importantly: "what would YOU do?" would you believe after ALL THAT, or would you still refuse to, on account that it makes no tangible difference. that's the main theological thread through the story, if you choose to believe it's there that is.

“I think the point is to make us despair, Damien—to see ourselves as animal, and ugly—to reject our own humanity—to reject the possibility that God could ever love us.”











or otherwise, the book (and by extension the movie, since it's so intrinsically tied to the book, note for note) is just really really fuckin' good anyway; regardless what camp your in, movie or book.

the way it props up belief and turns it inside out and all around, in such a visceral way, and can make you think...it's just awesome.

i think it might be better than most other literature that tackles theology. at least it's exciting, and it does as good a job at making you think about theology, while at the same time being more believable because it is afterall entertainment and not just apologist's concern with tying up loose ends of why God would make all of this shit so complicated, he does it cause he loves you, and to test you, and whatever crazy shit.

and then through the suspension of belief, you actually can address this theological stuff because you can assume "well if it was real then you'd HAVE TO question things"; as opposed to "it's real oh it's definitely real, even though we've never seen it really".

so more fun, and more engaging, and more thought-provoking overall; and this way you have a real enemy to fight against, as opposed to a conundrum of humanity's attempts to equivocate everything into philosophical/theosophical jargon. :lol: unless it is real, then whoo boy, WHEEEEEHOOOOOO, FIRE AND BRIMSTONE BABY!


Edited by akira_akuma (09/18/15 09:54 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22261300 - 09/19/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:  I love talking books with you.  I do not get that IRL


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22261603 - 09/19/15 07:07 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

hell yeah. :evil: that's much appreciated Zappa.

more times people i figure would want to talk more explicitly about their favorite books but it seems too time consuming; i don't have those particular constraints, however. i just gotta be in the mood, i suppose, though.

out of the books i've read, most of them (Crime and Punishment, Infinite Jest, Moby Dick, ect) can be expounded on ad infinitum. :cookiemonster:

but i gotta admit, before reading The Exorcist, i didn't think at all that there'd be so much depth to it. :yesnod:

PS: i just hope when i get to certain points in say Gravity's Rainbow that i don't get stumped, say with like the mathematical formulae for rocketry science and shit like that. :lol: oh that'll be a hoot. DAMN, so you're gonna throw math and science and shit at me, fuck you Pynchon! i know you probably got a numb ass researching that shit for who knows how long!


Edited by akira_akuma (09/19/15 07:40 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22265669 - 09/20/15 04:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Don't worry about it.  There is more attention paid to a hooker shitting on a politician's face than there is to any kind of math.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #22265709 - 09/20/15 04:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

:lmafo:


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22306770 - 09/29/15 06:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I read the book but I don't remember it much compared to the movie because I saw it about 5 times. The thing with the movie is the scariness factor, to me, is doubled by that soundtrack  Mike Oldfields' "Tubular Bells".

      On the Usual Suspects thing, it is impossible to know what's real because Spacey is making everything up in the interrogation room. Kobashi is whats written on the bottom of the coffee cup, and almost all of his other cues are based on any piece of BS he could read in that room. I thing I know is real, is that when Spacey walks out of that interrogation room and "KobasshI" Picks him up in the Jaguar, "Koabashi" is definitely deferential toward Spacey.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


Edited by Brian Jones (09/29/15 06:26 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: who's read the Exorcist? [Re: Brian Jones]
    #22308483 - 09/29/15 01:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

yeah he looks it! damn you're right!

but maybe the con man is just impressed with himself and Kobashimi IS really Soza and he just had to pick him up and be like "k, now you drive" and he's just pissed off that he had to do it!











k, that's thin man, real thin....

fuck! he is deferential towards him...fuckin' why didn't think of that before! you might have a fuckin' point Jones. :sad:


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