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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Peyote Road said: Nothing really seems to matter anymore, because no matter what happens I always just end up alone with myself.
Well, we're all alone, whether we acknowledge it or not. Sometimes I feel the most alone when I'm in the company of others.
"We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and -- in spite of True Romance magazines -- we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely -- at least, not all the time -- but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don't see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness." --Hunter S. Thompson
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 20 minutes
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Peyote Road said: Nothing really seems to matter anymore, because no matter what happens I always just end up alone with myself.
Well, we're all alone, whether we acknowledge it or not. Sometimes I feel the most alone when I'm in the company of others.
"We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and -- in spite of True Romance magazines -- we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely -- at least, not all the time -- but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don't see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness." --Hunter S. Thompson
Through externalized purity sealed the gates of your own paradise. "The blind ones will always suffer in secrecy"
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The daily signs, in all their irony, remind me of the absence of chance to turn to something else, for I'm bound to the Devil with unbreakable chains, firmly held by His Sons whose hearts are drunk with the liquor of deception. Faith in the Holy Retriever leaves nothing much but void, as His silent voice weakens nerves and sanity. Bleed, bleed the knuckles on the wall of captivity, covered with clumsy scribblings, emblems of deficiency, flightiness and vanity; smelling, dripping urine and lechery from the ground to the roof. Bleed, bleed the knuckles on the walls of duplicity, for there are walls, and walls, and walls, and no door... Revelations through emptiness. Omniabsence filled by His greatness. There's no way out, no chance to solve a riddle unconscious of itself, for the mystery is concealed at the heart of madness. Bleed the knuckles, bleed for tempting yet sterile appears the way to take by force and not through inner ascension what it is eagered for. Revelations through emptiness. Omniabsence filled by His greatness. Thus the way is clear, but catechism remains blank. Lost in a cold mist of unearthly thickness, the Sun abides doubtlessly, desperately, cruelly omniabsent. Alone among them all... Alone, alone in the glance of the Devil.
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
circastes said: Instead of meditation, what about medication?
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I don't think that's the case with me.
Yeah, nice work there Thantos. Instead of thoroughly investigating all your options you hang around here whinging and moaning because you don't 'think' that's the case.
Guess what? It's all that 'thinking' that has left you in this horrible, unfeeling, shit spot that you're living in right now.
How about 'doing' for once?!?!
It's because the doing feels empty, that's why. I have been looking at the options. Medication just made things worse for me in the past.
But I can't stop thinking, it's what I do. My mind has to solve, to expound, to seek and dissect. Thinking has been what's keeping me afloat, because if I stopped I would sink back in again. It's the only thing keeping me up from the void. Every time I give up thinking I feel the pull dragging me down again. My situation has come from being assailed by too many concepts that are difficult to argue against. This just happens to be the latest one that dealt a real number to me.
So I hope to find something to help me out. Since everything outside has failed I was hoping the key would be within me.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 20 minutes
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22260330 - 09/19/15 01:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quit ignoring your inner voice and face it. Stop turning a blind eye to the suffering of others/ the suffering you inflect with the ego's pettiness. It's your duty to help when you see someone in need. When you ignore that you pay with your peace of mind.
Quote:
The teacher of Yâo was Hsü Yû; of Hsü Yû, Nieh Khüeh; of Nieh Khüeh, Wang Î; of Wang Î, Pheî-î. Yâo asked Hsü Yû, saying, 'Is Nieh Khüeh fit to be the correlate of Heaven? (If you think he is), I will avail myself of the services of Wang Î to constrain him (to take my place).' Hsü Yû replied, 'Such a measure would be hazardous, and full of peril to the kingdom! The character of Nieh Khüeh is this;--
he is acute, perspicacious, shrewd and knowing, ready in reply, sharp in retort, and hasty; his natural (endowments) surpass those of other men, but by his human qualities he seeks to obtain the Heavenly gift; he exercises his discrimination in suppressing his errors, but he does not know what is the source from which his errors arise.
Make him the correlate of Heaven!
He would employ the human qualities, so that no regard would be paid to the Heavenly gift. Moreover, he would assign different functions to the different parts of the one person. Moreover, honour would be given to knowledge, and he would have his plans take effect with the speed of fire. Moreover, he would be the slave of everything he initiated. Moreover, he would be embarrassed by things. Moreover, he would be looking all round for the response of things (to his measures). Moreover, he would be responding to the opinion of the multitude as to what was right. Moreover, he would be changing as things changed, and would not begin to have any principle of constancy. How can such a man be fit to be the correlate of Heaven? Nevertheless, as there are the smaller branches of a family and the common ancestor of all its branches, he might be the father of a branch, but not the father of the fathers of all the branches. Such government (as he would conduct) would lead to disorder. It would be calamity in one in the position of a minister, and ruin if he were in the position of the sovereign.'
Edited by Eggtimer (09/19/15 01:48 PM)
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 14 minutes, 3 seconds
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22260402 - 09/19/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanatos10 said: I hear this come up often with meditation. But I would like to know what everyone's experience with this is? Did you find what you were looking for? Well I guess looking for isn't the term but did you discover something about yourself that you never knew?
It's just such a vague statement but I wanted to know other people's experience with it. Maybe just to give me a bit of hope you know.
I can understand wanting to hear what others have seen for a chance at what maybe you can see. I don't know where the cliche bit about answers lying within came from, but I can elaborate from personal experience.
For me meditation has been a great many things. A release, an escape, a practice, a burden, a solution, a problem, and any number of other things. It has been dynamic, it has been static. I can take a meditation practice on the road with me. I can leave it at home. I can leave it behind. I can bring it to the front. I can remember it, I can forget it. I may be meditating and no one but me knows it. I may be sitting in a meditative posture and yet not be meditating.
What does this suggest about answers lying within? Well, IMO it suggests that meditation is related to the internal landscape more than anything else. That I cannot say, go meditate in this way and that this will lead to a predictable result. I cannot say meditation is independent from state of being. But I can, from experience, say that if I meditate I will find an experience which is directly influenced by "me".
And that if I meditate, I will more clearly see this influence. Meditation IME is nearly synonymous with clarity. And so if answers truly are within, then meditation is one of the few ways to clearly see them.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Eggtimer]
#22260777 - 09/19/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eggtimer said: Quit ignoring your inner voice and face it. Stop turning a blind eye to the suffering of others/ the suffering you inflect with the ego's pettiness. It's your duty to help when you see someone in need. When you ignore that you pay with your peace of mind.
Quote:
The teacher of Yâo was Hsü Yû; of Hsü Yû, Nieh Khüeh; of Nieh Khüeh, Wang Î; of Wang Î, Pheî-î. Yâo asked Hsü Yû, saying, 'Is Nieh Khüeh fit to be the correlate of Heaven? (If you think he is), I will avail myself of the services of Wang Î to constrain him (to take my place).' Hsü Yû replied, 'Such a measure would be hazardous, and full of peril to the kingdom! The character of Nieh Khüeh is this;--
he is acute, perspicacious, shrewd and knowing, ready in reply, sharp in retort, and hasty; his natural (endowments) surpass those of other men, but by his human qualities he seeks to obtain the Heavenly gift; he exercises his discrimination in suppressing his errors, but he does not know what is the source from which his errors arise.
Make him the correlate of Heaven!
He would employ the human qualities, so that no regard would be paid to the Heavenly gift. Moreover, he would assign different functions to the different parts of the one person. Moreover, honour would be given to knowledge, and he would have his plans take effect with the speed of fire. Moreover, he would be the slave of everything he initiated. Moreover, he would be embarrassed by things. Moreover, he would be looking all round for the response of things (to his measures). Moreover, he would be responding to the opinion of the multitude as to what was right. Moreover, he would be changing as things changed, and would not begin to have any principle of constancy. How can such a man be fit to be the correlate of Heaven? Nevertheless, as there are the smaller branches of a family and the common ancestor of all its branches, he might be the father of a branch, but not the father of the fathers of all the branches. Such government (as he would conduct) would lead to disorder. It would be calamity in one in the position of a minister, and ruin if he were in the position of the sovereign.'
Wrong. I have greater peace of mind not giving a shot about humans suffering. As for duty, who decides that? You? There is no calling for humans to help each other out. As for an inner voice, that very well could just be a deceiver. In fact by going to against mine I have avoided disasters. The downside to not giving a shot is that the good stuff goes with it though. But I'm beginning to wonder if that's a good thing.
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Eggtimer
HotSauce Lover

Registered: 05/04/13
Posts: 3,097
Last seen: 4 days, 20 minutes
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22262925 - 09/20/15 12:02 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Wrong. I have greater peace of mind not giving a shot about humans suffering. As for duty, who decides that? You? There is no calling for humans to help each other out. As for an inner voice, that very well could just be a deceiver. In fact by going to against mine I have avoided disasters. The downside to not giving a shot is that the good stuff goes with it though. But I'm beginning to wonder if that's a good thing.
You get to avoid problems but this keeps you in chains. It keeps your mind running in loops of anxiety and regret.
By inner voice I should of said highest self. You are the listener not the thinker. There's a big difference in life when you know you know you observe your thoughts but aren't them.
Most animals have built in empathy for their own kind but humans by seeing only their differences miss their unity. Unity is the bias for compassion and love where noticing difference is the bias for discrimination. Even rats. http://scienceblog.com/78369/rats-will-try-to-save-members-of-their-own-species-from-drowning/#Wcc84zmV02Ciio7M.97
I know it's a lot of reading but this kind of stuff really helped me to understand. -Erwin Schroedinger
Quote:
we are faced with the following remarkable…situation. While the stuff from which our world picture is built is yielded exclusively from the sense organs as organs of the mind, so that every man’s world picture is and always remains a construct of his mind and cannot be proved to have any other existence, yet the conscious mind itself remains a stranger within that construct, it has no living space in it, you can spot it nowhere in space.
Quote:
Suffering is forgetting who you really are.
We suffer when we don’t see this completeness – this intimacy – within the present experience. When we don’t see that every wave that’s presently appearing is part of the ocean and therefore allowed in the ocean, we start trying to escape this moment to attempt to reach the next moment. We experience ourselves as not whole or somehow broken so we attempt to move away from this moment. In truth, that movement is not actually possible but we try anyway because that’s how we are programmed. We try to move away from this moment to get to the next moment, to tomorrow or next year or to ten years time. We start to use time to achieve this. This is the origin of suffering. We try to escape what’s happening now. We try to run away from aspects of our present experience. We try to escape these thoughts, sensations and feelings and get to a future place where things will be better. That’s the movement of suffering.
Within suffering you’ll always find seeking. Seeking is the basic mechanism behind all of our suffering. We label certain elements of experience ‘bad’ or ‘negative’ or ‘dark’ or ‘dangerous’ or ‘unhealthy’ and that’s because of our conditioning. We have been conditioned to label things as ‘fear’, ‘sadness’, ‘anger’, and do on, and to judge these as negative, or not-okay, or bad, or sinful – basically as expressions of incompleteness, as threats to completeness. Because we don’t seethe completeness in these waves, because we can’t find the ocean within these so-called ‘negative’ waves, we try to escape them and that movement ‘away from’ creates the suffering. Then we create stories and identities around this suffering: ‘Oh, I’m a victim of my suffering. I’m a victim of fear and pain! Why is this happening to me? How can I escape this experience?‘
Suffering is a great teacher. Maybe it’s the best teacher but we often don’t see that, because we don’t realise what suffering really is. Normally, we do all sorts of things to avoid, deny and numb our suffering. We take medication, drink alcohol or try to distract ourselves. Of course, there’s ultimately nothing with doing these things either! But suffering is always an opportunity; it’s an invitation to discover the completeness in what you are running away from. Which aspects of your experience right now are not okay? Which waves (thoughts, sensations, and feelings) of the ocean are being rejected right now? Which waves are not being seen as part of the ocean? Basically, what are you at war with? This is always the question that suffering leads you to.
Within the experience of suffering you’ll always find seeking. You can believe as much as you like that you’re not seeking, or that you are free from the self, but whenever there’s suffering there’s seeking. It’s the story of ‘me’ looking for something, escaping something; it’s the story of incompleteness or of feeling that there’s something wrong with you. So, the invitation – not a demand – is to take a look at what you are at war with right now. What’s the story? What are the images you are trying to hold up? What are you defending? What are you rejecting? What are you running away from? Look a little deeper. Perhaps these images of yourself are not who you really are. Maybe these stories don’t define you.
We suffer when we try to hold up images of ourselves – ‘I’m strong, I’m enlightened, I’m a success, I’m loving, I’m kind, I’m happy’ – which conflict with life as it is. And in the end, all images conflict with life as it is – no image can match this moment. This moment is the fire that burns up all images. In this moment there could be pain, sadness, fear –any image that says that what’s appearing shouldn’t be appearing, that you should be happy, or free from pain, is a false image.
Quote:
If we understand awareness as the immediate and indefinable state of being aware , then we can begin to comprehend the Indian concept of consciousness as theconstant state in all changing states of awareness. Just as the principle of theconservation of matter in the West holds that matter is never limited to any of itsapparent forms or bodies, so consciousness is never limited to any of its subject states.Thus, as death of the body in materialism is not the death of matter, so the death of egostates which arise from ideas of my, mine is not consciousness. This is where the idea of Karma, Samsara (‘wheel of suffering’), and re-birth originate. The Axial Age, in India, as with the Greeks, was a period in which the first greatquestions as to the nature of the world and the place of human awareness in it wereasked. In India many of these questions were directed toward the nature of the knowing self , and only thereafter toward the knowable and known object world. The Indian worldview is one in which consciousness or the potential for awareness of one’s self and of theworld of objects is a unifying and central concern. It is subject awareness whichproduces the distinctions of same and different, similar and dissimilar in conceptions.
Quote:
rom this perspective, consciousness or‘being conscious’ is ultimately both a ‘way of awareness’ and that of which one ‘isaware. This explanation is often illustrated with a dreamer—dream analogy . In thedream different things appear and different events occur.. However, the dreamer and dream are one.. This approach is analogous to that of the Upanisads--- but in the case of the Universe itself, it is the dream of Brahman as Cosmic Consciousness. The Upanisads are the texts of unknown forest mystics of the 7th– 2ndCenturies BCE. Asimilar position is found in the Bhagavad Gita, and the Vedanta ---Mimamsa school of philosophy. This view holds that subject and object are both different aspects of Brahman or Cosmic Consciousness. The individual human aspect of Brahman is the Atman or individual breath. If one takes the external world for a multiplicity of objects, and assumes one is unique this is the result of an illusion, or Maya. As the Upanisads consistently assert, when you look at others and the world around you, remember “Tattwam asi” “That art thou!
Edited by Eggtimer (09/20/15 12:46 AM)
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Peyote Road
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/15
Posts: 3,527
Loc: Great Lakes State
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22263146 - 09/20/15 01:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
circastes said: Instead of meditation, what about medication?
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: I don't think that's the case with me.
Yeah, nice work there Thantos. Instead of thoroughly investigating all your options you hang around here whinging and moaning because you don't 'think' that's the case.
Guess what? It's all that 'thinking' that has left you in this horrible, unfeeling, shit spot that you're living in right now.
How about 'doing' for once?!?!
It's because the doing feels empty, that's why. I have been looking at the options. Medication just made things worse for me in the past.
But I can't stop thinking, it's what I do. My mind has to solve, to expound, to seek and dissect. Thinking has been what's keeping me afloat, because if I stopped I would sink back in again. It's the only thing keeping me up from the void. Every time I give up thinking I feel the pull dragging me down again. My situation has come from being assailed by too many concepts that are difficult to argue against. This just happens to be the latest one that dealt a real number to me.
So I hope to find something to help me out. Since everything outside has failed I was hoping the key would be within me.
You have to let go into the void trusting in the light of faith I think. Otherwise your mind will just keep going in circles and you will remain on the treadmill of suffering.
Under the help of amanita, I am learning how to travel into the void and trust me, it ain't pretty what I find there. I have had to confront many of the most ugliest and horrific aspects of myself. Darkness and evil. A terrible sleepiness that renders my mind imobile and unable to think. At that time, I cannot think thoughts, so I rely on faith alone to guide me.
What happened to me is that at some point in my childhood I decided life was scary and unpleasant and that I didn't want to face it, so I turned away from life and took on this awful death zombie sleep consciousness. I was cut off from love and light and instead was doomed to walk the earth chasing endlessly after the lusts of the flesh, never finding satisfaction anywhere. Being in this state made me a perfect candidate for substance abuse, because they gave me a sensaton of being alive. GBut in the long run abusing drugs for many years added to my inner deadness and lethargy.
Now I am trying to turn back toward life and live again but it ain't easy.
I hope I am going the right way. I don't really know where I am going, I simply know that treading water at the surface of the void never gets you anywhere. In addition, all material pleasures are useless, utterly useless. I mean, they are useful in terms of enjoying them temporally but if you are seeking a real happiness that is not just a brief elation, then all worldly pleasures are useless.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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Thanatos10
Stranger



Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Eggtimer]
#22263800 - 09/20/15 08:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eggtimer said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Wrong. I have greater peace of mind not giving a shot about humans suffering. As for duty, who decides that? You? There is no calling for humans to help each other out. As for an inner voice, that very well could just be a deceiver. In fact by going to against mine I have avoided disasters. The downside to not giving a shot is that the good stuff goes with it though. But I'm beginning to wonder if that's a good thing.
You get to avoid problems but this keeps you in chains. It keeps your mind running in loops of anxiety and regret.
By inner voice I should of said highest self. You are the listener not the thinker. There's a big difference in life when you know you know you observe your thoughts but aren't them.
Most animals have built in empathy for their own kind but humans by seeing only their differences miss their unity. Unity is the bias for compassion and love where noticing difference is the bias for discrimination. Even rats. http://scienceblog.com/78369/rats-will-try-to-save-members-of-their-own-species-from-drowning/#Wcc84zmV02Ciio7M.97
I know it's a lot of reading but this kind of stuff really helped me to understand. -Erwin Schroedinger
Quote:
we are faced with the following remarkable…situation. While the stuff from which our world picture is built is yielded exclusively from the sense organs as organs of the mind, so that every man’s world picture is and always remains a construct of his mind and cannot be proved to have any other existence, yet the conscious mind itself remains a stranger within that construct, it has no living space in it, you can spot it nowhere in space.
Quote:
Suffering is forgetting who you really are.
We suffer when we don’t see this completeness – this intimacy – within the present experience. When we don’t see that every wave that’s presently appearing is part of the ocean and therefore allowed in the ocean, we start trying to escape this moment to attempt to reach the next moment. We experience ourselves as not whole or somehow broken so we attempt to move away from this moment. In truth, that movement is not actually possible but we try anyway because that’s how we are programmed. We try to move away from this moment to get to the next moment, to tomorrow or next year or to ten years time. We start to use time to achieve this. This is the origin of suffering. We try to escape what’s happening now. We try to run away from aspects of our present experience. We try to escape these thoughts, sensations and feelings and get to a future place where things will be better. That’s the movement of suffering.
Within suffering you’ll always find seeking. Seeking is the basic mechanism behind all of our suffering. We label certain elements of experience ‘bad’ or ‘negative’ or ‘dark’ or ‘dangerous’ or ‘unhealthy’ and that’s because of our conditioning. We have been conditioned to label things as ‘fear’, ‘sadness’, ‘anger’, and do on, and to judge these as negative, or not-okay, or bad, or sinful – basically as expressions of incompleteness, as threats to completeness. Because we don’t seethe completeness in these waves, because we can’t find the ocean within these so-called ‘negative’ waves, we try to escape them and that movement ‘away from’ creates the suffering. Then we create stories and identities around this suffering: ‘Oh, I’m a victim of my suffering. I’m a victim of fear and pain! Why is this happening to me? How can I escape this experience?‘
Suffering is a great teacher. Maybe it’s the best teacher but we often don’t see that, because we don’t realise what suffering really is. Normally, we do all sorts of things to avoid, deny and numb our suffering. We take medication, drink alcohol or try to distract ourselves. Of course, there’s ultimately nothing with doing these things either! But suffering is always an opportunity; it’s an invitation to discover the completeness in what you are running away from. Which aspects of your experience right now are not okay? Which waves (thoughts, sensations, and feelings) of the ocean are being rejected right now? Which waves are not being seen as part of the ocean? Basically, what are you at war with? This is always the question that suffering leads you to.
Within the experience of suffering you’ll always find seeking. You can believe as much as you like that you’re not seeking, or that you are free from the self, but whenever there’s suffering there’s seeking. It’s the story of ‘me’ looking for something, escaping something; it’s the story of incompleteness or of feeling that there’s something wrong with you. So, the invitation – not a demand – is to take a look at what you are at war with right now. What’s the story? What are the images you are trying to hold up? What are you defending? What are you rejecting? What are you running away from? Look a little deeper. Perhaps these images of yourself are not who you really are. Maybe these stories don’t define you.
We suffer when we try to hold up images of ourselves – ‘I’m strong, I’m enlightened, I’m a success, I’m loving, I’m kind, I’m happy’ – which conflict with life as it is. And in the end, all images conflict with life as it is – no image can match this moment. This moment is the fire that burns up all images. In this moment there could be pain, sadness, fear –any image that says that what’s appearing shouldn’t be appearing, that you should be happy, or free from pain, is a false image.
Quote:
If we understand awareness as the immediate and indefinable state of being aware , then we can begin to comprehend the Indian concept of consciousness as theconstant state in all changing states of awareness. Just as the principle of theconservation of matter in the West holds that matter is never limited to any of itsapparent forms or bodies, so consciousness is never limited to any of its subject states.Thus, as death of the body in materialism is not the death of matter, so the death of egostates which arise from ideas of my, mine is not consciousness. This is where the idea of Karma, Samsara (‘wheel of suffering’), and re-birth originate. The Axial Age, in India, as with the Greeks, was a period in which the first greatquestions as to the nature of the world and the place of human awareness in it wereasked. In India many of these questions were directed toward the nature of the knowing self , and only thereafter toward the knowable and known object world. The Indian worldview is one in which consciousness or the potential for awareness of one’s self and of theworld of objects is a unifying and central concern. It is subject awareness whichproduces the distinctions of same and different, similar and dissimilar in conceptions.
Quote:
rom this perspective, consciousness or‘being conscious’ is ultimately both a ‘way of awareness’ and that of which one ‘isaware. This explanation is often illustrated with a dreamer—dream analogy . In thedream different things appear and different events occur.. However, the dreamer and dream are one.. This approach is analogous to that of the Upanisads--- but in the case of the Universe itself, it is the dream of Brahman as Cosmic Consciousness. The Upanisads are the texts of unknown forest mystics of the 7th– 2ndCenturies BCE. Asimilar position is found in the Bhagavad Gita, and the Vedanta ---Mimamsa school of philosophy. This view holds that subject and object are both different aspects of Brahman or Cosmic Consciousness. The individual human aspect of Brahman is the Atman or individual breath. If one takes the external world for a multiplicity of objects, and assumes one is unique this is the result of an illusion, or Maya. As the Upanisads consistently assert, when you look at others and the world around you, remember “Tattwam asi” “That art thou!
You forget that the so called empathy can simply be a ensuring the survival of the species. Take note how it said members of its own species. Even then this is only based on human observations, we cannot truly know what goes through the mind of a rat. We call it empathy when it could really just boil down to ensuring survival. This has nothing to do with empathy. It's just ensuring a species survival. Even so, empathy is a human concept.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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BayerPhi
Always Learning

Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 1,884
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22263897 - 09/20/15 09:13 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thread is well responded to, it seems your looking for a debate and not advice OP. You've already made your mind up, what do you want? To experience what you don't believe in? To take the leap of faith without having faith? You'll be better off being saved by Gnosis - if you are not able to, or never able to experience it.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: BayerPhi]
#22264021 - 09/20/15 10:04 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
BayerPhi said: This thread is well responded to, it seems your looking for a debate and not advice OP. You've already made your mind up
That's a very succinct summation my friend. I couldn't agree more.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Eggtimer
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22265470 - 09/20/15 03:20 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanatos10 said:
You forget that the so called empathy can simply be a ensuring the survival of the species. Take note how it said members of its own species. Even then this is only based on human observations, we cannot truly know what goes through the mind of a rat. We call it empathy when it could really just boil down to ensuring survival. This has nothing to do with empathy. It's just ensuring a species survival. Even so, empathy is a human concept.
You most likely received an education based on secular monotheism. In the monotheistic world there is a separation between mind and world which unfortunately continued into the secular world view. You are told from a young age you personify(project your emotions onto the world) This is simply untrue. Where do you think the emotional centers of your brain evolved from? Do you also believe that weed is one of the most dangerous substance known to man? Something else a lot of people learn in school....
If you really want to understand this stuff do some reading on history, philosophy, science, and mythology(not monotheistic influenced mythology!) Christianity did a pretty good job suppressing and destroying all the cultures that contradicted their world view. Believe it or not your world view is probably based and influenced on that world view. You're trying to fit these ideas you don't understand into this world view and it will not work. Trust me I've been there.
http://www.mind-media.com/go.php?http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447742/
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Although several articles in the October 2002 issue on Complementary and Alternative Medicine reflect the interest in spirituality that exists in the field, they appear unable to discuss it directly. One of the reasons for this may be that scientific medicine has its roots in a rift from spirituality. Before Western medical practice and research began to involve what was considered to be an unnatural curiosity about the human body, medicine was intricately involved with a person’s spirit or soul. It was during the 16th century in Europe that men began to commit the heresy of stealing dead bodies from graves and actually looking at bones, muscles, and organs. “Laws against dissecting human corpses began to relax during the Renaissance; as a result, the first truly scientific studies of the human body began.”1
The dissecting of bodies has become such a basic feature of medical school education, it may be difficult to imagine the historical sacrilege of this act initially. The Church condemned these “body snatchers,” contributing to Western medicine’s alienation from the spirit. Larry Dossey writes,
From the sixteenth century on, mind has been progressively expunged from the phenomenal world. . . . Scientific consciousness is alienated consciousness: there is no ecstatic merger with nature, but rather total separation from it. Subject and object are always seen in opposition to each other. . . . The logical end point of this world view is a feeling of total reification: everything is an object, alien, not-me; and I am ultimately an object too, an alienated “thing” in a world of other, equally meaningless things. 2
As an American Indian, I am aware of an entirely different tradition of healing that never split from spirit world. There is no difference, for example, between Navajo religion and Navajo medicine. American Indian medicine consists of spoken prayers, songs that are prayers, rituals, and instruments of prayer. Even herbal medicine comes with prayers for a person’s spirit. It is interesting to me that modern providers have recently “discovered” holistic medicine. It is something like the way Columbus “discovered” America. Suddenly our spiritual practices exist, though they have been practical for centuries. We also experience alienation as a byproduct of would-be spiritual genocide, what Eduardo Duran calls the “soul wound”: “The notion of ‘soul wound’ is one which is at the core of much of the suffering which Indigenous peoples have undergone for centuries.”3(p127)
When modern public health and medical practitioners are able to talk about the spirit and understand what they themselves have lost, I think their wound will begin to heal. Perhaps then they can help the rest of us.
  
    
   

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Jokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Eggtimer]
#22265675 - 09/20/15 04:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Eggtimer - you make some amazing posts my brother, I just wish they were a little easier to digest!!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Eggtimer
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Eggtimer - you make some amazing posts my brother, I just wish they were a little easier to digest!!
Thanks Haha I know. But trying to fit an understanding of the cosmos/nature and where we fit in in a single post is hard!
The classical education is very different from the kind most people get today. Today you get an education that separates all the fields of knowledge into bits that are disconnected. We're never come to any understanding as long as we look at everything being separated into different fields of knowledge that don't belong together.
This book is one of my favorites on mythology. 673 illustrated pages of myths from all over the world. It really helps to understand how ancient people viewed cosmos/nature/divinity and where we fit into all of it. It's quite different from our western idea of it. http://www.amazon.com/Mythology-Illustrated-Anthology-World-Storytelling/dp/1571458271
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Thanatos10
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: BayerPhi]
#22265861 - 09/20/15 04:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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BayerPhi said: This thread is well responded to, it seems your looking for a debate and not advice OP. You've already made your mind up, what do you want? To experience what you don't believe in? To take the leap of faith without having faith? You'll be better off being saved by Gnosis - if you are not able to, or never able to experience it.
I haven't really gotten my answers to be honest. I asked if people have had an experience of finding the answers inside but I haven't gotten too many posts on it, and some deviate from it. I'm looking for advice but it's hard to buy into what people are saying. It's different perspectives and hard to make sense of any of it.
It's also thinking about how this is just one planet in a sea of darkness. That all of this is just the human perspective of things. Even being part of nature seems small to the vastness of space. It's like you said, belief. Because that's what this comes down to, a shot in the dark. I'm used to science because such things can be tested and proven. But faith and belief, that's a big pill to swallow. Faith is irrational and illogical, so it's hard for me to believe in such a thing.
All the mixed answers don't help much either. I'm just trying to make sense of something I haven't put stock into for a long time. Sure when I was a kid it was different, but now it's very hard if not impossible.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22265986 - 09/20/15 05:14 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
BayerPhi said: This thread is well responded to, it seems your looking for a debate and not advice OP. You've already made your mind up, what do you want? To experience what you don't believe in? To take the leap of faith without having faith? You'll be better off being saved by Gnosis - if you are not able to, or never able to experience it.
I haven't really gotten my answers to be honest. I asked if people have had an experience of finding the answers inside but I haven't gotten too many posts on it, and some deviate from it. I'm looking for advice but it's hard to buy into what people are saying. It's different perspectives and hard to make sense of any of it.
It's also thinking about how this is just one planet in a sea of darkness. That all of this is just the human perspective of things. Even being part of nature seems small to the vastness of space. It's like you said, belief. Because that's what this comes down to, a shot in the dark. I'm used to science because such things can be tested and proven. But faith and belief, that's a big pill to swallow. Faith is irrational and illogical, so it's hard for me to believe in such a thing.
All the mixed answers don't help much either. I'm just trying to make sense of something I haven't put stock into for a long time. Sure when I was a kid it was different, but now it's very hard if not impossible.
Jesus man, just grow up already!! It's really becoming quite boring watching you flounder about in the mess of it all. I think the problem is that you think you're somehow 'special', whether you care to admit it to yourself or not.
I've said time and time again, we're all in the same fucking boat man!!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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BrendanFlock
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Well there is what we sense..sometimes our memory..sometimes our peace of mind..our sampling of ideas as thoughts..then we have the 5 senses..and maybe secret senses as well..awareness and a general feeling of connection with our place of living..our family and friends..even our general society as a whole..
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Quote:
BayerPhi said: This thread is well responded to, it seems your looking for a debate and not advice OP. You've already made your mind up, what do you want? To experience what you don't believe in? To take the leap of faith without having faith? You'll be better off being saved by Gnosis - if you are not able to, or never able to experience it.
I haven't really gotten my answers to be honest. I asked if people have had an experience of finding the answers inside but I haven't gotten too many posts on it, and some deviate from it. I'm looking for advice but it's hard to buy into what people are saying. It's different perspectives and hard to make sense of any of it.
It's also thinking about how this is just one planet in a sea of darkness. That all of this is just the human perspective of things. Even being part of nature seems small to the vastness of space. It's like you said, belief. Because that's what this comes down to, a shot in the dark. I'm used to science because such things can be tested and proven. But faith and belief, that's a big pill to swallow. Faith is irrational and illogical, so it's hard for me to believe in such a thing.
All the mixed answers don't help much either. I'm just trying to make sense of something I haven't put stock into for a long time. Sure when I was a kid it was different, but now it's very hard if not impossible.
Jesus man, just grow up already!! It's really becoming quite boring watching you flounder about in the mess of it all. I think the problem is that you think you're somehow 'special', whether you care to admit it to yourself or not.
I've said time and time again, we're all in the same fucking boat man!!
I'm aware of that. But its hard to keep that in mind when you are in the thick of it all.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Jokeshopbeard
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Registered: 11/30/11
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Re: The answer lies within? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22266654 - 09/20/15 07:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, and I'm not? What makes you come across the way you do compared to the other 95% of people that post here? Do you for some reason think they're not in the 'thick of it all' too?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Yeah, and I'm not? What makes you come across the way you do compared to the other 95% of people that post here? Do you for some reason think they're not in the 'thick of it all' too?
Like I'm saying, is hard to see it that way sometimes. While that is the case though the thought offers little solace for me. Also perspective taking is not one of my strong suits.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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