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Thanatos10
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Is there an underlying order to the universe?
#22250422 - 09/17/15 10:24 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some people reference the golden ratio and other phenomenon as proof that there is an underlying order to the universe at large. But what if all that is just coincidence? Or maybe just confirmation bias at work without people knowing it?
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22250451 - 09/17/15 10:29 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the universe operates on a dual principle of chaos and order. Nature behaves and unfolds chaotically, but seems to organize itself into ordered systems. Study the ecosystem. Consider an acorn. Look in the mirror. There's order there.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Ferdinando


Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: DividedQuantum]
#22250460 - 09/17/15 10:32 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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gestalt therapy talks about organizing your behavior or work or world if that makes sense it is to be understood, I think, as when you make a bad decision you make two good decisions to compensate for it
-------------------- with our love with our love we could save the world
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: Thanatos10]
#22250974 - 09/17/15 12:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Clearly, there is lawfulness to nature. Perhaps just as clearly there appears to be chaos, uncertainty, randomness to nature, yet even the random tornado flattening your next-door neighbor's house but leaving your's unscathed operated by physical lawfulness regarding lawful mesocyclone behavior. But that only explains the 'how' of things, not the 'why' of things. People have used the 'will of God,' or karma, personal and impersonal explanations respectively to understand the 'why' of things, but left with uncertainty and no definitive answer, many people just attribute chance, probability, chaos theory, or absurdity to existence. Others just shrug, wisely acknowledging that there is no reasonable answer for 'why' their toddler was killed by a tornado. Just as the tornado descended from a cloud, we are all immersed in a "Cloud of Unknowing" when we demand a reason for events deemed tragic. The impersonality of nature is at loggerheads with the personal nature of persons. e would not be human if we didn't care if our child died or our home was destroyed, but just like a seemingly impersonal ant colony destroyed by a flash-flood, we end up rebuilding our home and perhaps reproducing more offspring, just as the ants do. Humans are a hybrid of nature and Something Compassionate. It seems things always get back to the basic duality of God-Nature, Nirvana-Samsara, or Order-Chaos.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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circastes
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#22258870 - 09/19/15 02:49 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think it's 100% designed by some higher power, and does not exist outside of that higher power's consciousness. It may not be perfect but that wasn't the idea. There is some other very elusive idea behind the creation of the universe.
I think we are 100% created too and inhabit these bodies. We may come from realms far beyond imagination.
If you assault the mystery of life head-on with psychedelics and your own open-minded contemplation, the self-protecting secrets of the universe will begin to shine on you.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: circastes]
#22266367 - 09/20/15 06:35 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Maybe the session of the universal intelligence is always questioning..and therein applying the principle of curiosity in a very general way..it could be as easy as accepting your will..to be perfectly aligned with the nature of things...
or what im saying more specifically..that what you believe..is likely going to reflect how you feel towards the universe..and there in change the fundamental dynamic of interaction... so that if you believe in chaos..you will likely find it outside your body..and this goes on and on..for the same thing..if you believe in order..you will tend to find it too.. It might be up to our reason and faculties of intellect to determine whether the universe is indeed an ordering engine..which conserves novelty..or a very disingenuous world..full of chaos and randomninity
and in saying that..the understanding of the universe cannot and will never...escape your natural functioning as a conscious unity in existence..no matter if your a squirrel or a Human being..you will never escape yourself..or the quotient of existence itself..
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#22266376 - 09/20/15 06:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yay, this is my 100th post...and im asking whether thats a good or bad thing..we will always see numbers in existence..and that essentially is an essence of pure order..the math and other laws or principles of existence..which will likely be here forever..Barring a Miracle of course..
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MollyLucyMaryJane

Registered: 09/10/11
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#22271250 - 09/21/15 07:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps mathematics? Sounds like an underlying order to the universe to me but then again math isnt perfect or perfectly understood.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: circastes]
#22272706 - 09/22/15 05:44 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Far out!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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nuentoter
conduit



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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#22272746 - 09/22/15 06:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I believe the mathematics of nature (golden ratio, Fibonacci sequence, platonic solids, and fractal design) are the underlying order of nature. These are the building blocks and baseline for so many things it's almost unfathomable. From flowers to nebula, and the ratio of the length of your find to the growth of a tree all share an aspect. Beyond the building blocks is where the random integer gets put into the equation, where life takes its random turns. Does this inherently prove higher intelligence? Dunno.
Does it make me want to believe it's too set up to be random? Yup.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: nuentoter]
#22274895 - 09/22/15 04:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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"...Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." - Mark 9:24
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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hTx
(:



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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: nuentoter]
#22276020 - 09/22/15 07:53 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nuentoter said: I believe the mathematics of nature (golden ratio, Fibonacci sequence, platonic solids, and fractal design) are the underlying order of nature. These are the building blocks and baseline for so many things it's almost unfathomable. From flowers to nebula, and the ratio of the length of your find to the growth of a tree all share an aspect. Beyond the building blocks is where the random integer gets put into the equation, where life takes its random turns. Does this inherently prove higher intelligence? Dunno.
Does it make me want to believe it's too set up to be random? Yup.
If you pay attention to how information is ordered in the universe, it becomes evident that information itself follows a fractal pattern. You can take information from a smaller system and it will apply to a much larger system, or vice-versa..
I believe the system of the universe itself as a whole is infinitely incomplete, such that it is always expanding and becoming more and more ordered and complex, always maintaining some expanding singularity of novelty in real-time.
The reported acceleration of this expansion could be seen as evidence in support of the idea that some force of novelty (perhaps your random factor described above) is constantly establishing building blocks in the universe, and the ever-increasing building blocks interact to expand the universe and accelerate novelty..which thereby accelerate the establishment of building blocks..etc, etc.
It is a recently known fact that every thing which composes the universe is connected through quantum entanglement, and that "time" is actually quantum entanglement --which is to say the increasing interactions of established building blocks which are entangled together as a whole 'universe' that is expanding into obviously increasing levels of ordered complexity.
For some reason, many take the second law of thermodynamics to mean that the universe is becoming less and less complex as it expands, that order always fades to disorder, eventually reaching equilibrium and ultimate death.
How can this apply to the universe when it clearly violates what we are observing?
the early universe was obviously much less complex and much more disordered than where we are now. through its evolution and expansion, the early universe went from mostly un-ordered hydrogen to what it is today, a universe literally teeming with complexity and order, billions of galaxies, containing billions of stars, harboring billions of planets, which may be harboring a billion different life-forms.
One can easily observe the trend towards complexity even within the evolution of life on Earth.
it may be that life is not some random freak occurrence, but is a predicable manifestation of accelerating novelty in the universe. Using the above logic, the emergence of human-level intelligence and creativity isn't seen as some random chance happening of evolution.
Rather, these are the goals and purpose for the evolution of life, and if correct it stands to reason that on a long enough time-line on any habitable planet, life would evolve in similar fashion to further manifest intelligence and creativity for the purposes of furthered complexity and novelty.
The creation of self-aware AI is predicted to arise at some point using the above model and if we ever accomplish such a creation, it should be considered proof of validity for the musings above.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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404
error


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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: hTx]
#22276049 - 09/22/15 07:58 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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https://www.quantamagazine.org/20130917-a-jewel-at-the-heart-of-quantum-physics/
this is an interesting read
Quote:
Physicists have discovered a jewel-like geometric object that dramatically simplifies calculations of particle interactions and challenges the notion that space and time are fundamental components of reality. -...
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hTx
(:



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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: 404]
#22276085 - 09/22/15 08:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not sure if Bohms been mentioned yet..but he describes two orders inherent in the universe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_explicate_order
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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nuentoter
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Re: Is there an underlying order to the universe? [Re: hTx]
#22276822 - 09/22/15 10:49 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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The concept of the Fibonacci spiral can be applied to this as well, the idea that things are getting more complex, and the idea that things are moving towards a higher state of entropy are the same. Taking what is already established in nature and adding an equal part (the fractal concept that this applies to everything from genetics and evolution and exponential computer technology advancements and consciousness) can be seen as becoming more complex (zooming out of the fractal image to reveal it is made of many more parts that den before) or seen as becoming more chaotic (the inability for us humans to keep up with our incessant need to catalogue and categorize). In reality we are following the spiral outward (extension, big bang, the singularity, the creation) which is synonymous with zooming out on the fractal image another magnification level.
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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
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