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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Leftist thinkers
#22240502 - 09/15/15 09:48 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I myself and others have been complaining a lot abt shame culture. The way it's used as a non-constructive tool.
I'm gonna stop there and leave this link w a good article on building better anti-oppression politics. If you're interested let me know what you're thinking
https://theanarchistassociation.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/blck-flag-vol-14-summer-2015.pdf
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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SoupSandwich



Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 4,440
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22240607 - 09/15/15 10:14 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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'Shame culture'? The fuck is that?
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22240676 - 09/15/15 10:31 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: I myself and others have been complaining a lot abt shame culture. The way it's used as a non-constructive tool.
I'm gonna stop there and leave this link w a good article on building better anti-oppression politics. If you're interested let me know what you're thinking
https://theanarchistassociation.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/blck-flag-vol-14-summer-2015.pdf
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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The information is there in the link give it a read or maybe just use Google. I'm not here to spoon feed information. Read up, form an opinion and let's discuss.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22240688 - 09/15/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: I myself and others have been complaining a lot abt shame culture. The way it's used as a non-constructive tool.
I'm gonna stop there and leave this link w a good article on building better anti-oppression politics. If you're interested let me know what you're thinking
https://theanarchistassociation.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/blck-flag-vol-14-summer-2015.pdf
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22240902 - 09/15/15 11:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
Actually, that was the first childish remark.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
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Loc: Texas
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
airclay said: This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
Actually, that was the first childish remark.
Explain how the first response wasn't childish and then please follow up w my remark was?
Where I'm standing first remark did not read anything but instead merely went out of the way to insult my vocabulary and and topic of discussion in general without any constructive input.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22241090 - 09/15/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: I myself and others have been complaining a lot abt shame culture. The way it's used as a non-constructive tool.
I'm gonna stop there and leave this link w a good article on building better anti-oppression politics. If you're interested let me know what you're thinking
https://theanarchistassociation.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/blck-flag-vol-14-summer-2015.pdf
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
Tell us what's so wonderful about it, I read several pages of that crap, did you post it to have a circle jerk or a meaningful discussion that includes criticism.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22241212 - 09/15/15 12:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Being that the title is Leftist Thinkers, I think it's pretty obvious he doesn't want opinions from right wingers with a persecution complex.
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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The title is an oxymoron.
-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22241361 - 09/15/15 01:18 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: I myself and others have been complaining a lot abt shame culture. The way it's used as a non-constructive tool.
I'm gonna stop there and leave this link w a good article on building better anti-oppression politics. If you're interested let me know what you're thinking
https://theanarchistassociation.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/blck-flag-vol-14-summer-2015.pdf
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
Tell us what's so wonderful about it, I read several pages of that crap, did you post it to have a circle jerk or a meaningful discussion that includes criticism.
You obviously didn't read enough or comprehend the information well then. The article covers problems w privilege theory and intersectionality that leads to generic blaming of white cis males.
I find it interesting that you offer no constructive criticism on the content of the link but only shallow remarks while asking me if I'd like a meaningful discussion.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22241389 - 09/15/15 01:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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^ welcome to political discussion.
you commie scum
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qman
Stranger

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Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
I was thinking that was well, but there's plenty of liberals that have many good ideas, but when you start with the premise of diplomatically trying to blame white people for all of the problems in society (like the article does), you lose instant credibility.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22241851 - 09/15/15 03:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
I was thinking that was well, but there's plenty of liberals that have many good ideas, but when you start with the premise of diplomatically trying to blame white people for all of the problems in society (like the article does), you lose instant credibility.
Obv didn't read or comprehend article. For the second time pointing out something the articles covers the opposite
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: ^ welcome to political discussion.
you commie scum
Lol as I'm finding out
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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Stonehenge
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Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22241897 - 09/15/15 03:46 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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He wants a circle jerk like all the lefties do. There must be no disagreement, just repeat the whining and add some of your own. Oxymoron indeed.
Leftist whiners
fixed
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
Without liberals you'd be dead or working 60 hours a week in a factory to feed yourself.
People today equate liberals with progressives, as if anything liberal is an addition to our current system. What they don't realize is liberals are the reason why you're comfortable with the system, or at least comfortable enough to not firebomb government buildings.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Alright let me try a different approach.
This is one of the main points that addresses privilege theory and the shaming of white cis-males.
Quote:
3. By over-emphasizing individual privilege, and how to “check” it, anti-oppression politics can risk personalizing systemic oppressions and undermining attempts to collectively organize to overthrow systemically oppressive systems. The constant agonizing in some anti-oppressive spaces over how individuals can check their privilege seems to involve the implicit assumption that privilege is a matter of choice, and can be relinquished by appropriate personal action. This assumption forces us to ask: even if a privileged, university-educated, cisgender white male person, for example, can be educated or checked into behaving properly within a particular activist space, what has this dubious accomplishment done to undermine patriarchy, racism, or other oppressive systems as systems? Don‘t these oppressive systems continue to operate out in the world, ready to take over as soon as we leave a designated safe space? Aren‘t they, in some ways, baked into all of our psyches by our having grown up in a culture of patriarchy, racism, homophobia, and so forth? The authors of the Who is Oakland piece frame the problem this way: "According to the dominant discourse of white privilege white supremacy is primarily a psychological attitude which individuals can simply choose to renounce instead of an entrenched material infrastructure which reproduces race at key sites across society from racially segmented labor markets to the militarization of the border. Whiteness simply becomes one more culture, and white supremacy a psychological attitude, instead of a structural position of dominance reinforced through institutions, civilian and police violence, access to resources, and the economy. At the same time a critique of white privilege has become a kind of blanket, reflexive condemnation of any variety of confrontational, disruptive protest while bringing the focus back to reforming the behavior and beliefs of individuals. We contend that privilege politics is ultimately rooted in an idealist theory of power which maintains that the psychological attitudes of individuals are the root cause of oppression and exploitation, and that vague programs of consciousness raising will somehow transform oppressive structures." Their point about condemning confrontational direct action as being only available to the privileged (particularly able-bodied macho white males) who possess the legal,economic, and social privileges to mitigate the personal impact of these actions—an argument many in the anarchist movement have no doubt heard—is particularly distressing. It suggests that marginalized communities should only engage in non-confrontational, unprovocative actions that are inclusive of, for example, the community‘s disabled and undocumented members in essence, what Common Cause Ottawa calls an implicit pacifism. In anarchist thought, which respects the right of individuals and groups to choose for themselves how to engage in struggle (diversity of tactics), this pacifism implicit in privilege politics seems hopelessly conservative. As Delio Vasquez writes in The Poor Person‘s Defense of Riots: Practical Looting, Rational Riots, and the Shortcomings of Black Liberalism (2014; originally in CounterPunch and reprinted in the zine ―Revolutionary Solidarity— A Critical Reader for Accomplices): ―We often suffer from a collective amnesia about the crucial role of law -breaking in the history of social change. Martin Luther King Jr., the paragon for pacifist protest, was arrested an impressive thirty times between 1955 and 1965. And still, the effectiveness of his militant pacifism can only be properly understood against the background of many other, much more tumultuous political conflicts—riots included—that occurred throughout the civil rights movement. Political change does not, and never has, come about through peaceful protest alone. All tactics of course play a role—and riots, the threat of violence, and violence itself are frequently the context and background that situate as well as frame the force and effectiveness of more mainstream, moderate, and agreed-on tactics. In a conversation with Coretta Scott King, Malcolm X, infamous for his anti-pacifist rhetoric and direct attacks on Martin Luther King‘s strategies, nonetheless stressed to King‘s wife his awareness of the value of a diversity of tactics: I want Dr. King to know that I didn‘t come to Selma to make his job difficult. I really did come thinking I could make it easier. If the white people realize what the alternative is, perhaps they will be more willing to hear Dr. King (http://anarchistnews.org/ content/revolutionary-solidaritycritical-reader-accomplices).
No doubt, dismantling the political, economic, and social basis of capitalism, statism, patriarchy, and the thousand other oppressions that define the modern world will require confrontational, or even (as a last resort) violent action, whether or not we all like it. The violent police responses to the anti-budget cuts, Occupy, & Black Lives Matter movements are a stark reminder of this sad reality. Checking privilege, calling out micro-aggressions, and demanding guilt, compliance, and submissiveness from relatively privileged white/male/middle class activists is simply not going to cut it.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
Edited by airclay (09/15/15 05:48 PM)
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
Without liberals you'd be dead or working 60 hours a week in a factory to feed yourself.
People today equate liberals with progressives, as if anything liberal is an addition to our current system. What they don't realize is liberals are the reason why you're comfortable with the system, or at least comfortable enough to not firebomb government buildings.
100%
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22242474 - 09/15/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Another essay about shame culture
Quote:
"The Left’s Self-Destructive Obsession with Shame" By RobtheIdealist
Perhaps the most redeeming aspect of my father’s ministry was his tireless work to help people heal from guilt and shame. I saw the transformative impact that his efforts had on people’s lives as they built the strength to lay down years of resentment and bitterness, and learned to truly forgive themselves and others.
To my dismay, I’ve found myself in the midst of a social justice world that not only encourages shame, but uses it as a weapon. Shame is so often at the root of personal dysfunction, and here we have a left dedicated to its perpetual transference. Shame is ultimately self-destructive, and in no way can such a sentiment be a foundation for healthy community.
We confuse shaming for justice, and I’ve had enough. What Is Shame?
Gershen Kaufman, a clinical psychologist and author of The Psychology of Shame , defines shame as “the affect that is the source of inferiority… To feel shame is to feel inherently bad, fundamentally flawed as a person.” Robert Stolorow, another professor and author, expands on this definition by pointing out that shame occurs “before the gaze of a viewing, judging other. (Sometimes, we, ourselves, can be our viewing other.)” Additionally, shame has a number of layers and often operates in combination with other emotions. According to psychiatrist and author Donald Nathanson, after shame is triggered, a person typically responds in four ways: withdrawal, attack self, avoidance, and attack others. The Shame Cycle by Thomas Scheff
The Shame Cycle by Thomas Scheff
Alon Blum, writing for the psychological journal Traumatology, finds that shame can express itself in feelings of “helplessness, incompetence, inferiority, and powerlessness and generates a desire to escape or avoid contact with others as well as conceal deficiencies.” What makes shame so debilitating is that it so often goes unacknowledged. Shame involves feelings of worthlessness, which is very difficult for people to admit; thus, according to Thomas Scheff, “we tend to hide shame, then, because its presence creates more shame” — resulting in a shame-rage spiral.
Shame has accompanying emotions, the most important of which is anger. Because of shame, we become angry at our self for getting us into the situation, or we might feel anger at the situation, or we might be angry with the other person for instigating or pointing out the issue that brought us shame in the first place. But shame doesn’t stop with anger: anger destroys social bonds, even the social bond with our self, and so we feel further shame. We tend to hide shame, then, because its presence creates more shame. Thomas Scheff, When Shame Gets Out of Hand
While some theorists and practitioners argue that shame is necessary for social awareness and moral development, Stolorow argues that shame has no positive relationship to human growth — saying “I don’t think that shame, which fosters only compliance and pathological accommodation, has any positive developmental implications at all“. Though theorists like Stolorow find a theoretical difference between guilt and shame by arguing that shame condemns the whole person while guilt targets specific behaviors, Blum reminds us that “guilt and shame often occur together” and it is virtually impossible to truly separate the two in practice.
In a Huffpost Live segment from fall 2012, a number of theorists pushed back against the use of shaming punishments in the criminal justice system — reminding us that shame does not lead to rehabilitation, is easily transferred to those around the individual, and often leads to unintended consequences. Shame and Oppression
One of oppression’s principal effects is shame. Oppressive power systems confer a status of inferiority onto select groups, which is then internalized and taken for granted — thus strengthening the dominant group’s stranglehold on power. Carter G. Woodson described this dynamic in his book, The Miseducation of the Negro.
If you make a man feel that he is inferior, you do not have to compel him to accept an inferior status, for he will seek it himself. If you make a man think that he is justly an outcast, you do not have to order him to the back door. He will go without being told; and if there is no back door, his very nature will demand one. Carter G. Woodson, The Miseducation of the Negro.
In the past, many social movements dedicated much of their energy to confronting shame. Black consciousness, an effort the reverse the psychological impacts of internalized racial inferiority, was a popular anti-shame philosophy embraced by activists like Steve Biko.
Any changes which are to come can only come as a result of a program worked out by black people. And for black people to be able to work out a program they need to defeat the one main element in politics which was working against them and this was a psychological feeling of inferiority, which was deliberately cultivated by the system. Steve Biko, 1977 Interview
Shame & The Left: Call Out Culture as Unacknowledged Shame
Activists like Steven Biko attempted to acknowledge the shame inherent in living under oppressive power structures. By acknowledging these feelings, they hoped to overcome them and have the ability to build a dynamic political movement. It is the unacknowledged/bypassed shame that is most destructive and leads to the shame-rage spiral (attacking others) so for communities committed to justice, acknowledging the impact of shame is a crucial step towards liberation.
Unfortunately, in the modern left we don’t combat shame, we worship it. Perhaps the most obvious expression of the Left’s present obsession with shame and shaming can be seen in what has been dubbed “call out culture”. The “call out” is a form of shaming — which intentionally labels an individual as fundamentally bad — and is a deeply toxic tendency in the Left. Flavia Dzodan, writing for Tiger Beatdown, describes this dynamic.
[Call out culture] works more or less like this: I say something ignorant… Unbeknown to me, there are now ten posts in ten different blogs and social media platforms calling me a “BIGOT AND THE WORST PERSON EVER”. Each time, every one of these posts escalating in rhetoric and volume. Each new post trying to outperform the previous one in outrage, in anger, in righteousness… The intent behind it, more often than not, is just to make the one initiating the call out feel good, more righteous, more indignant, a “better person”. Flavia Dzodan, Come one, come all! Feminist and Social Justice Blogging as Performance and Bloodshed
At a personal level, perfectionism is understood as being a product of unacknowledged shame — and the same is true for puritanism in group settings. The call out performance reeks of puritanism, and thus shame. Recall that after shame is triggered, a person typically responds in four ways: withdrawal, attack self, avoidance, and attack others. The “call out” is an example of attacking others in response to unacknowledged shame, which then triggers shame in the target as well.
Though Dzodan focuses on the use of shaming online, these call out performances are not limited to the internet. Facing Reality Collective describes how this form of shaming occurs within real world organizing settings, ultimately leading to a self-destructive spiral.
At leftist events and protests, POC militants sometimes establish status and legitimacy by wailing on the white kids who say ignorant crap, some of it severe, but most of it relatively banal. They posture about how much they hate white people and decry how many are in the room, but fail to develop strategies for organizing in proletarian communities of color, fail to build revolutionary organizations, and fail to develop bonds with working class militants of color in a manner that is any more effective than the white leftists.
At the same time, multiracial organizing projects also often foster a reciprocal process of white guilt and POC resentment. Whether in separate groups or multiracial ones, the white left and the POC left are locked in an unhealthy relationship.This can turn sadomasochistic: white leftists joyfully submit to scoldings from POC militants, in order to feel legitimated by them. At the same time, POC leftists seek individual satisfaction by wailing on white people. The compulsion of POC and white militants to wail and be wailed upon, and thereby somehow purify themselves of internal racism, limits their ability to fundamentally challenge the capitalist system. Facing Reality Collective, Towards a Revolutionary Left: A Critique and a Proposal
The sadomasochistic downward spiral that the Facing Reality Collective describes is an expression of both attacking others (the POC) and attacking the self (White guilt) in response to shame. This trend is present in Flavia Dzodan’s characterization of call out culture as well, and both situations are also similar to Retzinger & Scheff’s observations of unacknowledged shame in restorative justice conferences.
Retzinger & Scheff find that after a victim is attacked/violated, they inevitably experience feelings of shame (helplessness, impotence, betrayal, etc.). Neither the victim nor the community around them is likely to acknowledge this initial shame, and so it is instead expressed more visibly as anger. This anger then triggers shame in the offender, who then responds negatively and is unlikely to actually change the behavior. In both Retzinger & Scheff’s study and the Facing Reality Collective’s observations, the shame and anger are traded back and forth with no end in sight. Shame & The Left: Shaming as a Distraction
Shaming is such an integral part of the Left’s DNA that it’s our default response to almost any situation. Take police brutality for example. I’ve been to leftist events where the police have started beating one of us, and the crowd suddenly breaks out their cell phones and starts chanting “Shame, Shame, Shame” or “The Whole World is Watching” — statements designed to trigger shame.
We shame the police officer — making the beating an issue of the cop’s moral character — which relieves us of having to develop political and practical solutions to police brutality. Shaming individuals as a substitute for concerted political effort and substantive analysis cannot yield dynamic movements capable of remedying the material effects of oppression.
BlackFeminismDumb
Shaming does not just occur in cases of direct conflict. Jamilah Lemieux, an editor at Ebony.com, created the “Black Power is for Black Men” twitter campaign. The campaign was a space for people (mainly Black women) to critique gaps in our understanding of gendered racism, a laudable goal. However, when attempting to discuss the politics of interracial dating, Lemieux’s campaign became an exercise in shaming.
She tweeted “Black Power is for Black men because you can be the most righteous Black man ever and not have a single sister in your dating history. Not one.” — the underlying assumption being that sexual relationships with Black women was a prerequisite for political legitimacy (set aside the heterosexism for a moment). First, dating Black women is not necessarily indicative of the person’s political validity — rabid racists Strom Thurmond, Paul Ryan, and Allen West have all had relationships with Black women. Second, if she’s trying to claim that Black men are not stigmatized for dating non-Black women (and so her tweet seeks to even the odds), there are plenty of examples showing that claim is certainly not true.
Instead of opening up space to have a serious discussion about whether interracial dating, by default, perpetuates Black female inferiority, tweets like Lemieux’s antagonize the legitimacy and character of Black men. Black women are marked as inferior throughout society, both by the forces of structural oppression and the attitudes and actions of individuals, but interracial dating is hardly a significant contributor to this reality.
Misleading statistics about Black female marriage rates — designed to induce feelings of Black female inferiority — appear frequently in media outlets and are just one example of how shame is targeted at Black women. However, according to Prof. Ivory Toldson’s article, New Research Shatters Myths and Provides New Hope for Black Love and Marriage, “Eighty-eight percent of all married black men are married to black women, a figure that changes less than five percentage points with more education and income.”
Shaming Black men for their dating choices (real or imagined) allows us to sidestep the more difficult struggle to identify and remedy the forces and behaviors that actually create and perpetuate Black female inferiority. Furthermore, it’s a needless attack that seeks to bypass the feelings of shame that are inevitably caused by the systemic subjugation of Black women, and attempts to transfer that shame onto others (in this case Black men) — a manifestation of the shame-rage tendency. In the cases where Black men perceive Black women as inferior and undesirable, shaming these men does not open up the space for acknowledging and overcoming their shame — and is instead likely to result in a shame-rage spiral. How Can We Acknowledge & Discharge Shame?
Creating a political climate based on shame is an impediment to justice. Shaming is about control, not justice. The shame-rage spiral is an unsustainable burden that ensures that we are unable to mount substantive challenges to oppression. Unacknowledged feelings of shame will destroy us as individuals and as movements. Honestly, I don’t have a strong idea for how we can overcome the shame dynamic in our political spaces. Thus far, Ngọc Loan Trần’s concept “calling in” offers the most hope.
The first part of calling each other in is allowing mistakes to happen. Mistakes in communities seeking justice and freedom may not hurt any less but they also have possibility for transforming the ways we build with each other for a new, better world. We have got to believe that we can transform… I start “call in” conversations by identifying the behavior and defining why I am choosing to engage with them. I prioritize my values and invite them to think about theirs and where we share them. And then… we talk about it together, like people who genuinely care about each other. We offer patience and compassion to each other and also keep it real, ending the conversation when we need to and know that it wasn’t a loss to give it a try. Because when I see problematic behavior from someone who is connected to me, who is committed to some of the things I am, I want to believe that it’s possible for us to move through and beyond whatever mistake was committed. Ngọc Loan Trần, Calling IN: A Less Disposable Way of Holding Each Other Accountable
By focusing on relationships, specific behaviors, and a real value for one another, Ngọc Loan Trần, offers a way to go about setting and maintaining boundaries that does not rely on shame. What other ways can we create accountability, tactics, and critiques without resorting to shaming? Additionally, shame is also an internalized effect of oppression, what are ways that we can begin to collectively and personally acknowledge it before conflict arises
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22242476 - 09/15/15 05:48 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obviously there's a lot here that for someone who isn't left thinking (leaning, imagining, whining whatever floats your boat) is fundamentally corrupt. It's not intended for you. I'm not seeking to debate the fundamental ideas of leftism but more so discuss this article and shame culture within the left.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22242510 - 09/15/15 05:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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What a load of hooie! cisgender means normal apparently so why not say normal instead of making up some new horse manure word?
It seems to be some sort of strategy to make normal white guys feel bad about the fact they succeeded despite getting no govt handouts like all the "special" people get. Hard work and sacrifice is sneered at while airing complaints is encouraged.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22242657 - 09/15/15 06:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
airclay said: This thread is obv not for you but thaaanks for kicking off the childish remarks. I guess someone had to do it first.
Actually, that was the first childish remark.
Explain how the first response wasn't childish and then please follow up w my remark was?
Where I'm standing first remark did not read anything but instead merely went out of the way to insult my vocabulary and and topic of discussion in general without any constructive input.
Because his comment was directed at the linked site and their stupidity, where-as yours was directed at him.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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hostileuniverse
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capitalism isn't oppressive, its the most honest, fair, free way to have an economy, fuck, liberals is dumb...
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22242708 - 09/15/15 06:34 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: Obviously there's a lot here that for someone who isn't left thinking (leaning, imagining, whining whatever floats your boat) is fundamentally corrupt. It's not intended for you. I'm not seeking to debate the fundamental ideas of leftism but more so discuss this article and shame culture within the left.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: What a load of hooie! cisgender means normal apparently so why not say normal instead of making up some new horse manure word?
It seems to be some sort of strategy to make normal white guys feel bad about the fact they succeeded despite getting no govt handouts like all the "special" people get. Hard work and sacrifice is sneered at while airing complaints is encouraged.
The topic is actually on the idea of why that seems to be true within anarchist circles tho and to stop it as to include white cis-males and stop the ipso facto blaming of them as individuals.
Also again you show your ignorance this time on the topic of gender studies. however you did inspire me to read into it the history and critique of the term and I found this to be fair.
Quote:
Women's and Gender Studies scholar Mimi Marinucci writes that some consider the "cisgender–transgender" binary to be just as dangerous or self-defeating as the masculine–feminine gender binary, because it lumps people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual (LGB) arbitrarily and over-simplistically with heteronormative class of people as opposed to with transgender people. Characterizing LGB individuals together with heterosexual, non-trans people may problematically suggest that LGB individuals, unlike transgender individuals, "experience no mismatch between their own gender identity and gender expression and cultural expectations regarding gender identity and expression"
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: capitalism isn't oppressive, its the most honest, fair, free way to have an economy
Capitalism is not about creating a strong middle class. Empirical evidence shows the purer the capitalism, the less the working class are worth.
Country/Territory Net median wealth per adult 1. Australia $219,505.00 2. Luxembourg $182,768.00 3. Belgium $148,141.00 4. France $141,850.00 5. Italy $138,653.00 6. United Kingdom $111,524.00 7. Japan $110,294.00 8. Iceland $104,733.00 9. Switzerland $95,916.00 10. Finland $95,095.00 11. Norway $92,859.00 12. Canada $90,252.00 13. Netherlands $83,631.00 14. New Zealand $76,607.00 15. Ireland $75,573.00 16. Spain $63,306.00 17. Denmark $57,675.00 18. Austria $57,450.00 19. Greece $53,937.00 20. Sweden $52,677.00 21. Germany $49,370.00 22. Slovenia $44,932.00 23. United States $44,911.00 24. Portugal $38,846.00 25. Israel $38,164.00
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: fuck, liberals is dumb...
The irony...
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/15/15 10:17 PM)
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Hey, can someone print out a copy of the first rant so i have something to wipe my ass with?
They key defect in this horseshit that is supposed to pass as meaningful intellectualism is that someone else's feelings or state of being are not my responsibility.
That is, I am responsible for what I feel and do, no one 'makes' me have feelings. What other people say or do does't make me bad or good nor does it instill opportunity on me.
what i got i earned myself. If someone else wants a degree in engineering and a six figure salary, they can go work in a factory for five years at night and live 5 miserable years with no sleep while they do their college work in the daytime, and eat peanut butter sandwiches seven days a week and have no fucking life. Like I did. If they want tuition paid for, they can go clean tables at the university cafeteria like a lot of people that had no money did--so they could get an education and improve their lives.
No one is holding anyone back or denying anyone anything in the US. WE HAVE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY--NOT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME. If someone can't cut the mustard, that is not my fault or responsibility.
the name of this thread should be 'Leftist Stinkers'
Edited by starfire_xes (09/16/15 12:52 AM)
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: capitalism isn't oppressive, its the most honest, fair, free way to have an economy
Capitalism is not about creating a strong middle class. Empirical evidence shows the purer the capitalism, the less the working class are worth.
Country/Territory Net median wealth per adult 1. Australia $219,505.00 2. Luxembourg $182,768.00 3. Belgium $148,141.00 4. France $141,850.00 5. Italy $138,653.00 6. United Kingdom $111,524.00 7. Japan $110,294.00 8. Iceland $104,733.00 9. Switzerland $95,916.00 10. Finland $95,095.00 11. Norway $92,859.00 12. Canada $90,252.00 13. Netherlands $83,631.00 14. New Zealand $76,607.00 15. Ireland $75,573.00 16. Spain $63,306.00 17. Denmark $57,675.00 18. Austria $57,450.00 19. Greece $53,937.00 20. Sweden $52,677.00 21. Germany $49,370.00 22. Slovenia $44,932.00 23. United States $44,911.00 24. Portugal $38,846.00 25. Israel $38,164.00
Fal, where ya been man?? And what do you presume that table illustrates or proves?
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Astral Pain
Strange

Registered: 11/10/14
Posts: 2,923
Loc: Chicago
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Not sure what it proves either considering that none of the countries on that list has a population remotely close to that of the United States.
-------------------- "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out" -Bill Hicks-
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Quote:
Astral Pain said: Not sure what it proves either considering that none of the countries on that list has a population remotely close to that of the United States.
I just look at japan and wonder if anyone realizes how much lower their standard of living is.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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A lot yall really should read up on the myth that is meritocracy and realize that equality is not based on how hard you had to work to get what you want but on working to provide an equal access human experience simply because every human deserves it.
But most off maybe take and second and quit playing Internet cool guy class clown and allow those that don't find this fundamentally corrupt a chance to discuss it.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22244569 - 09/16/15 06:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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in the US everyone has equal access, OK Karl?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Quote:
starfire_xes said: in the US everyone has equal access, OK Karl?
  
Didn't you just create a thread about how the system is rigged?
Now it's not because it's convenient for your "every leftist idea is communism" platform. What a joke.
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qman
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22244887 - 09/16/15 08:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: Alright let me try a different approach.
This is one of the main points that addresses privilege theory and the shaming of white cis-males.
Quote:
3. By over-emphasizing individual privilege, and how to “check” it, anti-oppression politics can risk personalizing systemic oppressions and undermining attempts to collectively organize to overthrow systemically oppressive systems. The constant agonizing in some anti-oppressive spaces over how individuals can check their privilege seems to involve the implicit assumption that privilege is a matter of choice, and can be relinquished by appropriate personal action. This assumption forces us to ask: even if a privileged, university-educated, cisgender white male person, for example, can be educated or checked into behaving properly within a particular activist space, what has this dubious accomplishment done to undermine patriarchy, racism, or other oppressive systems as systems? Don‘t these oppressive systems continue to operate out in the world, ready to take over as soon as we leave a designated safe space? Aren‘t they, in some ways, baked into all of our psyches by our having grown up in a culture of patriarchy, racism, homophobia, and so forth? The authors of the Who is Oakland piece frame the problem this way: "According to the dominant discourse of white privilege white supremacy is primarily a psychological attitude which individuals can simply choose to renounce instead of an entrenched material infrastructure which reproduces race at key sites across society from racially segmented labor markets to the militarization of the border. Whiteness simply becomes one more culture, and white supremacy a psychological attitude, instead of a structural position of dominance reinforced through institutions, civilian and police violence, access to resources, and the economy. At the same time a critique of white privilege has become a kind of blanket, reflexive condemnation of any variety of confrontational, disruptive protest while bringing the focus back to reforming the behavior and beliefs of individuals. We contend that privilege politics is ultimately rooted in an idealist theory of power which maintains that the psychological attitudes of individuals are the root cause of oppression and exploitation, and that vague programs of consciousness raising will somehow transform oppressive structures." Their point about condemning confrontational direct action as being only available to the privileged (particularly able-bodied macho white males) who possess the legal,economic, and social privileges to mitigate the personal impact of these actions—an argument many in the anarchist movement have no doubt heard—is particularly distressing. It suggests that marginalized communities should only engage in non-confrontational, unprovocative actions that are inclusive of, for example, the community‘s disabled and undocumented members in essence, what Common Cause Ottawa calls an implicit pacifism. In anarchist thought, which respects the right of individuals and groups to choose for themselves how to engage in struggle (diversity of tactics), this pacifism implicit in privilege politics seems hopelessly conservative. As Delio Vasquez writes in The Poor Person‘s Defense of Riots: Practical Looting, Rational Riots, and the Shortcomings of Black Liberalism (2014; originally in CounterPunch and reprinted in the zine ―Revolutionary Solidarity— A Critical Reader for Accomplices): ―We often suffer from a collective amnesia about the crucial role of law -breaking in the history of social change. Martin Luther King Jr., the paragon for pacifist protest, was arrested an impressive thirty times between 1955 and 1965. And still, the effectiveness of his militant pacifism can only be properly understood against the background of many other, much more tumultuous political conflicts—riots included—that occurred throughout the civil rights movement. Political change does not, and never has, come about through peaceful protest alone. All tactics of course play a role—and riots, the threat of violence, and violence itself are frequently the context and background that situate as well as frame the force and effectiveness of more mainstream, moderate, and agreed-on tactics. In a conversation with Coretta Scott King, Malcolm X, infamous for his anti-pacifist rhetoric and direct attacks on Martin Luther King‘s strategies, nonetheless stressed to King‘s wife his awareness of the value of a diversity of tactics: I want Dr. King to know that I didn‘t come to Selma to make his job difficult. I really did come thinking I could make it easier. If the white people realize what the alternative is, perhaps they will be more willing to hear Dr. King (http://anarchistnews.org/ content/revolutionary-solidaritycritical-reader-accomplices).
No doubt, dismantling the political, economic, and social basis of capitalism, statism, patriarchy, and the thousand other oppressions that define the modern world will require confrontational, or even (as a last resort) violent action, whether or not we all like it. The violent police responses to the anti-budget cuts, Occupy, & Black Lives Matter movements are a stark reminder of this sad reality. Checking privilege, calling out micro-aggressions, and demanding guilt, compliance, and submissiveness from relatively privileged white/male/middle class activists is simply not going to cut it.
"oppressions that define the modern world (white males) will require confrontational, or even VIOLENT ACTION" 
"Checking privilege,... demanding guilt, compliance, and submissiveness from relatively privileged WHITE/MALE...is simply not going to cut it" 
Nice racist hate speech Mr.Leftist Thinker.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22245012 - 09/16/15 09:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Qman I'm really worried about hour ability to read and comprehend things. For the third time now you've missed the point. The point is to stop the ipso facto blaming of the white cis-males. Your specific edited paraphrase are parts of the whole that explain we shouldn't be against any individual persons regardless off their class/race/whatever.
This thread is literally about anarchists trying to fight exactly what you're complaining about within their own communities.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
Edited by airclay (09/16/15 09:31 AM)
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qman
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245128 - 09/16/15 09:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: Qman I'm really worried about hour ability to read and comprehend things. For the third time now you've missed the point. The point is to stop the ipso facto blaming of the white cis-males. Your specific edited paraphrase are parts of the whole that explain we shouldn't be against any individual persons regardless off their class/race/whatever.
This thread is literally about anarchists trying to fight exactly what you're complaining about within their own communities.
They're still the same people/movement that want to use a different method to vilify white males. Just because they found the first method ineffective doesn't diminish the fact that their mindset is from the same place.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22245310 - 09/16/15 10:50 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're still missing it. It's not a new way to vilify white males (srry your lil white feelings are so easily hurt) it's working towards understanding that individuals themselves are not to blame and not to automatically be discredited but recognizing the socio-institution of whiteness. Which really is class antagonism put in a more cultural light.
Again this is all theory that is fundamentally corrupt to right wingers. My intent is to discuss this w others that relate as to further ideas about privilege and intersectionality that doesn't put ppl of color on a pedestal and leave the rest behind.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245324 - 09/16/15 10:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Also qman, I'm a white cis-gender male.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245340 - 09/16/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: Qman I'm really worried about hour ability to read and comprehend things. For the third time now you've missed the point. The point is to stop the ipso facto blaming of the white cis-males. Your specific edited paraphrase are parts of the whole that explain we shouldn't be against any individual persons regardless off their class/race/whatever.
This thread is literally about anarchists trying to fight exactly what you're complaining about within their own communities.
Amazing, isn't it?
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245385 - 09/16/15 11:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: You're still missing it. It's not a new way to vilify white males (srry your lil white feelings are so easily hurt) it's working towards understanding that individuals themselves are not to blame and not to automatically be discredited but recognizing the socio-institution of whiteness. Which really is class antagonism put in a more cultural light.
Again this is all theory that is fundamentally corrupt to right wingers. My intent is to discuss this w others that relate as to further ideas about privilege and intersectionality that doesn't put ppl of color on a pedestal and leave the rest behind.
"working towards an understanding that (white males) individuals themselves are not to blame"
Blame for what?
"institution of whiteness"
Really, and what would that be?
"doesn't put ppl of color on a pedestal and leave the rest behind"
Just give it a rest already, we know what you true intentions are, blame whitey and market the idea of victimization for everyone else, how's that been working for you?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245413 - 09/16/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: Also qman, I'm a white cis-gender male.
So, this site is full of self hating liberal white males, you should feel at home here. Let me guess, you're in you mid 20's?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22245445 - 09/16/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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qman your defensive reactions to his post are exactly what he was referring too about shame culture. No one is shaming you because you have white privilege and being able to see white privilege doesn't mean you have to be self hating.
But as a white person I acknowledge that there's shit I do that the black members of my family can't. Like walk down the street with weed in my pocket without worrying that a cop is going to search me because 'I'm acting suspicious'.
The article is about addressing this and finding solidarity so we can struggle together against systemic oppression.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Amazing, isn't it?
It definitely is. I thought I could enjoy talking to other leftist here about leftist ideals and unlike leftist only boards not be bombarded w living Marxist encyclopedias. Instead I can't even discuss left topics w/o being bombarded w hard headed righties.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245739 - 09/16/15 12:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Amazing, isn't it?
It definitely is. I thought I could enjoy talking to other leftist here about leftist ideals and unlike leftist only boards not be bombarded w living Marxist encyclopedias. Instead I can't even discuss left topics w/o being bombarded w hard headed righties.
What's even more amazing is if you were to create a thread about right wing values and agenda, they'd all be silent.
The righties here claim to be above the party mentality to save face, yet unabashedly single out the left for criticism.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
No I haven't. Links to anything specific? I'll def look him up when I get a chance.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Now I've read the thread. I liked the posts on shame airclay.
Brene Brown has done some really ground breaking research on shame. The book I've read was geared more towards women but I gleaned a lot of insight from it. She talks a lot about shame resilience, strategies we can use when someone tries to shame us that don't fall into the reactionary internalizing or attacking coping mechanisms.
I also don't find cis, trans, etc. labels helpful. I see sexuality and gender identity along a spectrum. Linguistically I think we use these terms as a matter of convenience but as a mostly hetero male I've struggled a lot to understand that I can be attracted to some males without falling squarley in the middle. Likewise I've explored a lot of Jungian thought when it comes to archetypes, specifically the Anima, and there's been moments when I've thought does this make me 'trans'?
The conclusion I've come to is that the act of self labeling is only useful to me personally when I'm using it for communication. Generally I try to keep an open mind and not become dogmatic in my thoughts, especially in relation to my self. When I do otherwise I can be confronted with aspects of my self that don't line up with my perception of self. At times I've lived through periods of cognitive dissonance lasting years as I sought to reconcile old ideas with new perceptions.
I've read of gay men having similar struggles when finding themselves attracted to a women. Questions of identity come up, i.e. does this make me bi?
Personally I think pheromones play a very large role in who were attracted too, and with gender not being as black and white as we make it out to be, can sometimes lead to cracks in our straight/gay etc identities.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245845 - 09/16/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
No I haven't. Links to anything specific? I'll def look him up when I get a chance.
This was the first thing I listened too. He's more tactful here then in his typical radio shows and podcasts (he has a lot of disdain for capitalism but hides it well in the interview).
And this is the book on shame I was talking about.
http://www.amazon.com/By-Brene-Brown-Perfectionism-Inadequacy/dp/B00HTJO6MS/ref=pd_sim_14_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0K7YP9RECVVPKFWTSFSM&dpID=41-aheVCSgL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR108%2C160_
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Hey, can someone print out a copy of the first rant so i have something to wipe my ass with?
They key defect in this horseshit that is supposed to pass as meaningful intellectualism is that someone else's feelings or state of being are not my responsibility.
That is, I am responsible for what I feel and do, no one 'makes' me have feelings. What other people say or do does't make me bad or good nor does it instill opportunity on me.
what i got i earned myself. If someone else wants a degree in engineering and a six figure salary, they can go work in a factory for five years at night and live 5 miserable years with no sleep while they do their college work in the daytime, and eat peanut butter sandwiches seven days a week and have no fucking life. Like I did. If they want tuition paid for, they can go clean tables at the university cafeteria like a lot of people that had no money did--so they could get an education and improve their lives.
No one is holding anyone back or denying anyone anything in the US. WE HAVE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY--NOT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME. If someone can't cut the mustard, that is not my fault or responsibility.
the name of this thread should be 'Leftist Stinkers'
Read this over and over again, leftist stinkers. He is not talking from theory like you young uni propagandized people are. He speaks from experience, been there and done that. As a matter of fact, blacks have more opportunity than whites since they get a handout every time they turn around. Special scholarships and grants just for "minorities", quotas, etc and so on. If a white guy can make it swimming against the tide then a minority should be able to do it with half the effort. But its easier to whine and demand more handouts, isn't it?
This shame crap is just part of the victimology they teach now days. I'm surprised they have time for technical subjects in school today given all the propaganda they think is more important. You cis-wimps can wear hair shirts and beat yourselves bloody with a whip if you wish but I will pass.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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I have no idea what you and starfire are on about but it's way off-topic so I'm just going to assume you're both trolling.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: The conclusion I've come to is that the act of self labeling is only useful to me personally when I'm using it for communication. Generally I try to keep an open mind and not become dogmatic in my thoughts, especially in relation to my self.
This 100%
reading up on wolf/brown, will get back more once I have.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246356 - 09/16/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool. Wolff is an economics professor so he's not talking about what your article is so much. I name dropped him because he's just really good at not blaming/shaming individuals and seeing issues in a systemic way.
Brene Brown talks a lot about shame and power but she's a psychologist so the scope is more individual than sociological.
I've been listening to this interview this afternoon and it's also a really good example of Wolff's composure and how he stays out of the blame/shame politics.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay] 1
#22246358 - 09/16/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
"own white guilt"
I don't think so, my Polish relatives came to US around 100 years ago, they made their own way, there's NOTHING to be guilty about. In fact, they could claim victimization by having to leave a hostile environment at the time, but guess what? They didn't!!
So where does your "white guilt" come from? That professor must have been laying it on real good, he got you hook, line, and sinker.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246435 - 09/16/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so. I've volunteered at 1919 since it's opening, http://1919hemphill.org/about
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
Edited by airclay (09/16/15 02:56 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246455 - 09/16/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246459 - 09/16/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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qman, again no one here nor the article itself was trying to shame you for being white. It was about how to avoid using shame, which itself is a mode of oppression, in anti-oppression movements.
Your own 'white guilt' comes from your selective reading of the article. It's pretty clear your initial response was a defensive reaction to something that the article never said.
Quote:
qman said:
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
Defensive response.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
I was thinking that was well, but there's plenty of liberals that have many good ideas, but when you start with the premise of diplomatically trying to blame white people for all of the problems in society (like the article does), you lose instant credibility.
Not what the article was talking about.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
Edited by paperbackwriter (09/16/15 02:58 PM)
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246460 - 09/16/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
I feel no shame for the skin I was born into, I do recognize that there is a system of white privilege at play.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246491 - 09/16/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
I feel no shame for the skin I was born into, I do recognize that there is a system of white privilege at play.
So you just take and use this white privilege everyday of your life without guilt or shame? That sounds like someone who has no moral compass, how do you sleep at night?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246510 - 09/16/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Dude, you can't stop having white privilege and there's no reason to feel guilty about it.
As I pointed out earlier I have certain privileges black members of my family don't, like not worrying about having weed in my pocket when a cop walks by.
At this point I'm pretty convinced you're also trolling and not interested in joining the conversation.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246512 - 09/16/15 03:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nah I actively stand against it and speak out, however, I cannot control anyone else's actions or unconscious bias.
anything else? it seems as if you've run dry that last one was realllllly reaching.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: Dude, you can't stop having white privilege and there's no reason to feel guilty about it.
How could one feel guilty about something that they don't think exists?
What you said doesn't apply to myself and most others, you're in a small minority for even using the term "white privilege".
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246678 - 09/16/15 03:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think it exists and I don't feel guilty about it. As airclay pointed out I can't control other people's subconscious biases.
I can however recognize that I enjoy certain things people of different skin colors don't, like not being racially profiled by law enforcement. Maybe majority privilege would be a better word but to say that looking like the majority of people in this country does not offer certain benefits or privileges doesn't square with my life experiences.
You beg to differ?
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246942 - 09/16/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
"own white guilt"
I don't think so, my Polish relatives came to US around 100 years ago, they made their own way, there's NOTHING to be guilty about. In fact, they could claim victimization by having to leave a hostile environment at the time, but guess what? They didn't!!
So where does your "white guilt" come from? That professor must have been laying it on real good, he got you hook, line, and sinker.
im sure when people look at you they say "third generation Polish immigrant," and not "white."
--------------------
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hostileuniverse
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Registered: 05/14/15
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: capitalism isn't oppressive, its the most honest, fair, free way to have an economy
Capitalism is not about creating a strong middle class. Empirical evidence shows the purer the capitalism, the less the working class are worth.
Country/Territory Net median wealth per adult 1. Australia $219,505.00 2. Luxembourg $182,768.00 3. Belgium $148,141.00 4. France $141,850.00 5. Italy $138,653.00 6. United Kingdom $111,524.00 7. Japan $110,294.00 8. Iceland $104,733.00 9. Switzerland $95,916.00 10. Finland $95,095.00 11. Norway $92,859.00 12. Canada $90,252.00 13. Netherlands $83,631.00 14. New Zealand $76,607.00 15. Ireland $75,573.00 16. Spain $63,306.00 17. Denmark $57,675.00 18. Austria $57,450.00 19. Greece $53,937.00 20. Sweden $52,677.00 21. Germany $49,370.00 22. Slovenia $44,932.00 23. United States $44,911.00 24. Portugal $38,846.00 25. Israel $38,164.00
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: fuck, liberals is dumb...
The irony... 
being liberal, Im not surprised you didn't get the joke...
and america is hardly purely capitalistic, if anything, socialism has a detrimental effect on our net worth as a society
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qman
Stranger

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Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I think it exists and I don't feel guilty about it. As airclay pointed out I can't control other people's subconscious biases.
I can however recognize that I enjoy certain things people of different skin colors don't, like not being racially profiled by law enforcement. Maybe majority privilege would be a better word but to say that looking like the majority of people in this country does not offer certain benefits or privileges doesn't square with my life experiences.
You beg to differ?
Police profile age and sex as well, that's called statistical commonsense and it's a part of life, should people be aware of "age privilege"? What about "sex privilege"? Should young males alert the rest of the population the oppression they suffer from law enforcement? Do you see how ridiculous your line of reasoning has become? What about "rich privilege"?
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
"own white guilt"
I don't think so, my Polish relatives came to US around 100 years ago, they made their own way, there's NOTHING to be guilty about. In fact, they could claim victimization by having to leave a hostile environment at the time, but guess what? They didn't!!
So where does your "white guilt" come from? That professor must have been laying it on real good, he got you hook, line, and sinker.
im sure when people look at you they say "third generation Polish immigrant," and not "white."
Actually they say "4th generation Polish American".
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22247180 - 09/16/15 05:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Do you see how ridiculous your line of reasoning has become?
probably not, leftists only see two groups of people, victims and oppressors, that why liberalism has recently been classified as a mental disorder...
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22247188 - 09/16/15 05:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I think it exists and I don't feel guilty about it. As airclay pointed out I can't control other people's subconscious biases.
I can however recognize that I enjoy certain things people of different skin colors don't, like not being racially profiled by law enforcement. Maybe majority privilege would be a better word but to say that looking like the majority of people in this country does not offer certain benefits or privileges doesn't square with my life experiences.
You beg to differ?
Police profile age and sex as well, that's called statistical commonsense and it's a part of life, should people be aware of "age privilege"? What about "sex privilege"? Should young males alert the rest of the population the oppression they suffer from law enforcement? Do you see how ridiculous your line of reasoning has become? What about "rich privilege"?
Please review intersectionality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22248149 - 09/16/15 08:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
"own white guilt"
I don't think so, my Polish relatives came to US around 100 years ago, they made their own way, there's NOTHING to be guilty about. In fact, they could claim victimization by having to leave a hostile environment at the time, but guess what? They didn't!!
So where does your "white guilt" come from? That professor must have been laying it on real good, he got you hook, line, and sinker.
im sure when people look at you they say "third generation Polish immigrant," and not "white."
Actually they say "4th generation Polish American".
By looking at you?
--------------------
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: capitalism isn't oppressive, its the most honest, fair, free way to have an economy
Capitalism is not about creating a strong middle class. Empirical evidence shows the purer the capitalism, the less the working class are worth.
Country/Territory Net median wealth per adult 1. Australia $219,505.00 2. Luxembourg $182,768.00 3. Belgium $148,141.00 4. France $141,850.00 5. Italy $138,653.00 6. United Kingdom $111,524.00 7. Japan $110,294.00 8. Iceland $104,733.00 9. Switzerland $95,916.00 10. Finland $95,095.00 11. Norway $92,859.00 12. Canada $90,252.00 13. Netherlands $83,631.00 14. New Zealand $76,607.00 15. Ireland $75,573.00 16. Spain $63,306.00 17. Denmark $57,675.00 18. Austria $57,450.00 19. Greece $53,937.00 20. Sweden $52,677.00 21. Germany $49,370.00 22. Slovenia $44,932.00 23. United States $44,911.00 24. Portugal $38,846.00 25. Israel $38,164.00
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: fuck, liberals is dumb...
The irony... 
being liberal, Im not surprised you didn't get the joke...
and america is hardly purely capitalistic, if anything, socialism has a detrimental effect on our net worth as a society
What joke?
Why is it that when conservatives are presented with facts refuting their claim, they make an ad hominem and repeat the same claim in a different way?
--------------------
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Fal, where ya been man?? And what do you presume that table illustrates or proves?
I'm spending more time on home projects and being more social (parties, etc). I'm on vacation right now, so I have some time on my hands, but I'm going back to work again tomorrow and may fade away.
The list I posted shows the countries we should try to be more like. Note that these top countries all incorporate a good bit of socialism to make the median worker better off.
For example, Australia has a national minimum wage of $17.29/hour. We should do the same if we want to increase the wealth of the median worker.
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I just look at japan and wonder if anyone realizes how much lower their standard of living is.
I just look at Detroit, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc. and wonder where in Japan there exists that kind of poverty.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
Astral Pain said: Not sure what it proves either considering that none of the countries on that list has a population remotely close to that of the United States.
Please explain how population impacts the median worker. If anything, countries with larger populations should be better off since they get economies of scale in Government.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: and america is hardly purely capitalistic
Exactly. The point of that list was to show that the more socialism a country has, the better off the median person is.
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: if anything, socialism has a detrimental effect on our net worth as a society
Again, empirical evidence proves you wrong.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Do you see how ridiculous your line of reasoning has become?
probably not, leftists only see two groups of people, victims and oppressors, that why liberalism has recently been classified as a mental disorder...
Michael Savage and one psychiatrist that wrote a book don't set the bar for what's classified as a mental disorder.
It's posts like this that landed you that 0 FYI. If you want to participate try attacking less and thinking for yourself more.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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I think that list is hogwash. Leftist sinkers.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: I think that list is hogwash. Leftist sinkers.
Any data to support that claim above your own personal speculation?
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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Nap
Nap


Registered: 04/28/15
Posts: 18
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22277519 - 09/23/15 05:57 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hey guys, It's been rough over here the last few months, lost my job and my mom. Really been struggling financially but I think there's a way out in sight. I found someone who will buy as much of the gourmet organic edible mushrooms as I can grow! I am really falling short on supplies and genetics though and could really use some help! Anything you could do to help would be deeply appreciated. Feel free to message me any time!
Fuck Trump
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22277971 - 09/23/15 09:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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>Any data to support that claim
I see no data to support the list, merely a list of numbers.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Fal, where ya been man?? And what do you presume that table illustrates or proves?
I'm spending more time on home projects and being more social (parties, etc). I'm on vacation right now, so I have some time on my hands, but I'm going back to work again tomorrow and may fade away.
The list I posted shows the countries we should try to be more like. Note that these top countries all incorporate a good bit of socialism to make the median worker better off.
For example, Australia has a national minimum wage of $17.29/hour. We should do the same if we want to increase the wealth of the median worker.
Quote:
starfire_xes said: I just look at japan and wonder if anyone realizes how much lower their standard of living is.
I just look at Detroit, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc. and wonder where in Japan there exists that kind of poverty.
Oh, sorry, you are right fal. Aren't those cities that the left has run into the ground and kept blacks oppressed in? 
by the way the OVERALL standard of living is lower in Japan than the US.
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spookman
Toad-licker

Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 95
Last seen: 2 days, 52 minutes
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it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.
-------------------- Subterranean Hermes, guardian of my father's realms, Become my saviour and my ally, in answer to my prayer. For I am come and do return to this my land. - Aristophanes, The Frogs.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: spookman]
#22281768 - 09/23/15 11:41 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spookman said: it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
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spookman
Toad-licker

Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 95
Last seen: 2 days, 52 minutes
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
spookman said: it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
No, it isn't.
http://reverbpress.com/politics/proof-republicans-are-stupid/
-------------------- Subterranean Hermes, guardian of my father's realms, Become my saviour and my ally, in answer to my prayer. For I am come and do return to this my land. - Aristophanes, The Frogs.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: spookman]
#22282355 - 09/24/15 07:13 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spookman said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
spookman said: it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
No, it isn't.
http://reverbpress.com/politics/proof-republicans-are-stupid/
Yes, it is...
http://mobile.wnd.com/2008/11/56494/
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Conservatives not understanding what is and isn't science?
I'm appalled.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
spookman said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
spookman said: it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
No, it isn't.
http://reverbpress.com/politics/proof-republicans-are-stupid/
Yes, it is...
http://mobile.wnd.com/2008/11/56494/
I can't believe you're still beating this drum.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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spookman
Toad-licker

Registered: 04/17/15
Posts: 95
Last seen: 2 days, 52 minutes
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
spookman said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:
Quote:
spookman said: it's a scientific fact that conservatives are less intelligent than liberals.

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
No, it isn't.
http://reverbpress.com/politics/proof-republicans-are-stupid/
Yes, it is...
http://mobile.wnd.com/2008/11/56494/
I reject his straw man premise.
-------------------- Subterranean Hermes, guardian of my father's realms, Become my saviour and my ally, in answer to my prayer. For I am come and do return to this my land. - Aristophanes, The Frogs.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: spookman]
#22286089 - 09/24/15 09:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spookman said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
spookman said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said:

its a scientific fact that liberalism is a mental disorder.
No, it isn't.
Yes, it is...
http://mobile.wnd.com/2008/11/56494/
I reject his straw man premise.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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There is clear-cut Proof that liberals are stupid:
1) they voted for Obama--Twice 2) Hillary 3) Jimmy Carter.... 4) L B "I'll have those n..gers voting democrat for the next 200 years" Johnson.
Edited by starfire_xes (09/25/15 01:35 AM)
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: There is clear-cut Proof that liberals are stupid:
1) they voted for Obama--Twice 2) Hillary 3) Jimmy Carter.... 4) L B "I'll have those n..gers voting democrat for the next 200 years" Johnson.

There is clear cut proof that conservatives are stupid:
1. They voted for GW Bush. Twice. 2. Trump 3. Ronald Reagan 4. Richard "I welcome this investigation, because the people should know whether or not their president is a crook. Well I'm not a crook" Nixon.
See how easy it is to not think?
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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shit im glad im not a conservative.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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I'm a libertarian
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things. 
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: shit im glad im not a conservative.
Yes you are. I've never once seen you criticize a conservative ideal.
Just because you call Boehner a shithead in the midst of your tsunami of anti liberal anti Obama anti socialism rhetoric doesn't make you some unbiased independent.
It makes you insincere at best, and too scared to voice your discuss your actual politics at worst.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things.  
Actually, the people who most ran the country into the ground are the ones who said things like "government IS the problem."
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things.  
Actually, the people who most ran the country into the ground are the ones who said things like "government IS the problem."
Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things.  
Actually, the people who most ran the country into the ground are the ones who said things like "government IS the problem."
Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?

Well the quote is from Reagan, who slashed the tax rates on rich people and contributed significantly to the national debt, so you can start there.
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things.  
Actually, the people who most ran the country into the ground are the ones who said things like "government IS the problem."
Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?

Well the quote is from Reagan, who slashed the tax rates on rich people and contributed significantly to the national debt, so you can start there.
I see you couldn't answer any of my questions.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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You can start there.
There are millions of people responsible for our public debt, if you want a list talk to the census bureau
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
burgerbrain said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Im anything that doesn't get get (R) or (D) put beside it. i mean, those idiots spent the last forty or fifty years running the country into the ground. And they got the majority of people thinking that since government is so shitty and bad, we need more of it to fix things.  
Actually, the people who most ran the country into the ground are the ones who said things like "government IS the problem."
Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?

Well the quote is from Reagan, who slashed the tax rates on rich people and contributed significantly to the national debt, so you can start there.
Yeah, Reagan was who came to mind when you said this for me too.
Quote:
burgerbrain said: I see you couldn't answer any of my questions.
Are you trolling? Seriously he directly answered your question and you continue to quibble over the definition of socialism with people way more informed than you about the subject.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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burgerbrain
Freedom Lover


Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 962
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Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?
He said "Reagan" .. Guess he answered the questions! LOL
You must be a troll.
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Quote:
burgerbrain said: Can you give us a list of those people? Also how is the government NOT the problem? Who do you think racked up 20 Trillion dollars in debt, blue collar workers?
He said "Reagan" .. Guess he answered the questions! LOL
You must be a troll.
He did answer the question. Hence me asking if you were trolling. It was an honest question.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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two things ignorant people hate:
nuance grey area
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Two things liberals hate:
Logic Results
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Im sure you can back that up with a list of conservative nations with more logic and better results than the US, which is already particularly conservative by international standards.
Right?
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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The United States, became rich through capitalism, indebted by socialism, once we began incorporating more socialist programs, we began incurring debt...
NO president, since the fifties has actually lowered the debt, that's a fact...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: The United States, became rich through capitalism, indebted by socialism, once we began incorporating more socialist programs, we began incurring debt...
NO president, since the fifties has actually lowered the debt, that's a fact...
So every president after the 50s was a socialist?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Presidents don't set the budget. Will you please call Pat Sajack and buy not a vowel but a clue
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
Posts: 8,602
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: The United States, became rich through capitalism, indebted by socialism, once we began incorporating more socialist programs, we began incurring debt...
NO president, since the fifties has actually lowered the debt, that's a fact...
So every president after the 50s was a socialist?
That's not what I said, are you trying to straw man?
It is clear when the United States started accruing debt, with the advent of unsustainable socialist programs, just like every other country... And it's been snowballing ever since...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Presidents don't set the budget. Will you please call Pat Sajack and buy not a vowel but a clue
The other dude put it on the presidents, trust me i know better.
But wait, whats the graph in your sig implying?
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
hostileuniverse said: The United States, became rich through capitalism, indebted by socialism, once we began incorporating more socialist programs, we began incurring debt...
NO president, since the fifties has actually lowered the debt, that's a fact...
So every president after the 50s was a socialist?
That's not what I said, are you trying to straw man?
It is clear when the United States started accruing debt, with the advent of unsustainable socialist programs, just like every other country... And it's been snowballing ever since...
If socialist programs are unsustainable debt accruers, explain how nations with more socialist programs have less debt than us.
Youre only looking at one side of the equation, costs, and ignoring revenue. Taxes across the board have dropped and dropped since the 50s as well, yet thats strangely absent from your premise.
For example: In 1952, corporate taxes accounted for 33% of all federal tax revenue. Today, corporate taxes account for 9%.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>That's not what I said, are you trying to straw man?
Of course he is. Presidents sign bills, or they can veto them. They also have other ways of getting what they want.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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I dont know how Stonehenge thinks he knows what im trying to do when he has me on ignore
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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1) Let's see how far this thread can go before we can come up with someone OUTSIDE of government who increased our debt and fucked things up.
2) If someone OUTSIDE of government fucked things up and
a) Violated a law, lets see how the government held them accountable... or why the government let them get away with it... or
b) Violated no law, did the government put laws into place that corrected the issue, and did they work?..
c) If laws were put into place and the same shit happened what did the government do to fix it...
I think we will see that the people that are responsible for the state of the US are (whom?)
3) Do any of you think that after 50 years of expanding government and government power we are better off?
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
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3) the liberals will blame the conservatives, they always do, personally I blame both parties but libs just don't see it that way, they think their side is infallible and if we just put the right people in charge, spend even more, things will get better...
look at the horrible state that detroit is in, run by ONLY liberals for the last 50 years and they still blame someone else for their own failures...
it really is such a childish mentality...
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Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: 3) the liberals will blame the conservatives, they always do, personally I blame both parties but libs just don't see it that way, they think their side is infallible and if we just put the right people in charge, spend even more, things will get better...
look at the horrible state that detroit is in, run by ONLY liberals for the last 50 years and they still blame someone else for their own failures...
it really is such a childish mentality...
That's true, and many of the more extreme moonbats will deny the obvious. Since obumble is a lib dem and did all those rotten things, they say he is a conservative. In their simple minds, lib = good and conservative = bad no matter the facts. When things go wrong all they know how to do is look for a conservative to blame.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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worked has picked the fuck up but just wanted to pop in and lol at the complete misunderstanding of the political spectrum, neo-conservative base ideas and the absolute skewed american conservative/liberal meta.
American gov't consist of two pro-business parties.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: 1) Let's see how far this thread can go before we can come up with someone OUTSIDE of government who increased our debt and fucked things up.
2) If someone OUTSIDE of government fucked things up and
a) Violated a law, lets see how the government held them accountable... or why the government let them get away with it... or
b) Violated no law, did the government put laws into place that corrected the issue, and did they work?..
c) If laws were put into place and the same shit happened what did the government do to fix it...
I think we will see that the people that are responsible for the state of the US are (whom?)
3) Do any of you think that after 50 years of expanding government and government power we are better off?
1. So now youre backtracking on your admission that corporate influence is corrupting government?
2. a, b, c: if corporations are bribing government to get their way, something tells me part of getting their way means making sure no laws are created to prevent them from getting their way.
3. "expanding government" is such a meaningless term. Just because thr debt has gone up doesnt mean government power has expanded. Tax rates have fallen, industries deregulated, etc.
This is my biggest beef with you man. You readily accept that big business and the super rich have bent our government to their will, but still cant get over the intellectual hump of "big government ruins everything."
Ive used this analogy before, but lets say corporations are the mob and the police are thr government. The mob has so much money and power that theyve turned most of the department into crooked cops. Shrinking the government to fix our corporation caused problems is like defunding the police department to get rid of the mob.
Government is our only tool to fix the problems that we Americans face. We cant throw that tool in the trash. Theres a reason the Kochs are spending $1 billion this election cycle, and its because throwing a wrench in our democratic gears is the only way they get to keep the game going.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
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no i haven't accepted that they have bent the government to their will. I accept that they do what the government lets them do.
who controls who is in the government?
By the way, its much easier to control a small government at the state level...that is where the people's real power is held.
""Everyone's repesentative and senators are bad.......' (except mine)
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: no i haven't accepted that they have bent the government to their will. I accept that they do what the government lets them do.
who controls who is in the government?
By the way, its much easier to control a small government at the state level...that is where the people's real power is held.
""Everyone's repesentative and senators are bad.......' (except mine)
^willfull ignorance
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: no i haven't accepted that they have bent the government to their will. I accept that they do what the government lets them do.
who controls who is in the government?
By the way, its much easier to control a small government at the state level...that is where the people's real power is held.
""Everyone's repesentative and senators are bad.......' (except mine)
Dude you made a thread like last week about how corporations are running our government.
Have any opinion you want I don't care, but be consistent.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Presidents don't set the budget. Will you please call Pat Sajack and buy not a vowel but a clue
The other dude put it on the presidents, trust me i know better.
But wait, whats the graph in your sig implying?
It doesn't imply anyhting. It is just information.
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airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Presidents don't set the budget. Will you please call Pat Sajack and buy not a vowel but a clue
The other dude put it on the presidents, trust me i know better.
But wait, whats the graph in your sig implying?
It doesn't imply anyhting. It is just information.
lolololol, what a side step, what is the point you're pushing by making that information available to readers every time you post then?
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 53 seconds
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: Presidents don't set the budget. Will you please call Pat Sajack and buy not a vowel but a clue
The other dude put it on the presidents, trust me i know better.
But wait, whats the graph in your sig implying?
It doesn't imply anyhting. It is just information.
Right.
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