|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 33 minutes
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245385 - 09/16/15 11:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said: You're still missing it. It's not a new way to vilify white males (srry your lil white feelings are so easily hurt) it's working towards understanding that individuals themselves are not to blame and not to automatically be discredited but recognizing the socio-institution of whiteness. Which really is class antagonism put in a more cultural light.
Again this is all theory that is fundamentally corrupt to right wingers. My intent is to discuss this w others that relate as to further ideas about privilege and intersectionality that doesn't put ppl of color on a pedestal and leave the rest behind.
"working towards an understanding that (white males) individuals themselves are not to blame"
Blame for what?
"institution of whiteness"
Really, and what would that be?
"doesn't put ppl of color on a pedestal and leave the rest behind"
Just give it a rest already, we know what you true intentions are, blame whitey and market the idea of victimization for everyone else, how's that been working for you?
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
|
I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 33 minutes
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245413 - 09/16/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said: Also qman, I'm a white cis-gender male.
So, this site is full of self hating liberal white males, you should feel at home here. Let me guess, you're in you mid 20's?
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22245445 - 09/16/15 11:15 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
qman your defensive reactions to his post are exactly what he was referring too about shame culture. No one is shaming you because you have white privilege and being able to see white privilege doesn't mean you have to be self hating.
But as a white person I acknowledge that there's shit I do that the black members of my family can't. Like walk down the street with weed in my pocket without worrying that a cop is going to search me because 'I'm acting suspicious'.
The article is about addressing this and finding solidarity so we can struggle together against systemic oppression.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Amazing, isn't it?
It definitely is. I thought I could enjoy talking to other leftist here about leftist ideals and unlike leftist only boards not be bombarded w living Marxist encyclopedias. Instead I can't even discuss left topics w/o being bombarded w hard headed righties.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 26 seconds
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245739 - 09/16/15 12:12 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Amazing, isn't it?
It definitely is. I thought I could enjoy talking to other leftist here about leftist ideals and unlike leftist only boards not be bombarded w living Marxist encyclopedias. Instead I can't even discuss left topics w/o being bombarded w hard headed righties.
What's even more amazing is if you were to create a thread about right wing values and agenda, they'd all be silent.
The righties here claim to be above the party mentality to save face, yet unabashedly single out the left for criticism.
--------------------
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
|
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
No I haven't. Links to anything specific? I'll def look him up when I get a chance.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
|
Now I've read the thread. I liked the posts on shame airclay.
Brene Brown has done some really ground breaking research on shame. The book I've read was geared more towards women but I gleaned a lot of insight from it. She talks a lot about shame resilience, strategies we can use when someone tries to shame us that don't fall into the reactionary internalizing or attacking coping mechanisms.
I also don't find cis, trans, etc. labels helpful. I see sexuality and gender identity along a spectrum. Linguistically I think we use these terms as a matter of convenience but as a mostly hetero male I've struggled a lot to understand that I can be attracted to some males without falling squarley in the middle. Likewise I've explored a lot of Jungian thought when it comes to archetypes, specifically the Anima, and there's been moments when I've thought does this make me 'trans'?
The conclusion I've come to is that the act of self labeling is only useful to me personally when I'm using it for communication. Generally I try to keep an open mind and not become dogmatic in my thoughts, especially in relation to my self. When I do otherwise I can be confronted with aspects of my self that don't line up with my perception of self. At times I've lived through periods of cognitive dissonance lasting years as I sought to reconcile old ideas with new perceptions.
I've read of gay men having similar struggles when finding themselves attracted to a women. Questions of identity come up, i.e. does this make me bi?
Personally I think pheromones play a very large role in who were attracted too, and with gender not being as black and white as we make it out to be, can sometimes lead to cracks in our straight/gay etc identities.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22245845 - 09/16/15 12:31 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: I read the article OP.
Do you listen to Richard Wolff? He's really good at staying on message and pointing out that the issue is systemic.
No I haven't. Links to anything specific? I'll def look him up when I get a chance.
This was the first thing I listened too. He's more tactful here then in his typical radio shows and podcasts (he has a lot of disdain for capitalism but hides it well in the interview).
And this is the book on shame I was talking about.
http://www.amazon.com/By-Brene-Brown-Perfectionism-Inadequacy/dp/B00HTJO6MS/ref=pd_sim_14_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0K7YP9RECVVPKFWTSFSM&dpID=41-aheVCSgL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR108%2C160_
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
|
Quote:
starfire_xes said: Hey, can someone print out a copy of the first rant so i have something to wipe my ass with?
They key defect in this horseshit that is supposed to pass as meaningful intellectualism is that someone else's feelings or state of being are not my responsibility.
That is, I am responsible for what I feel and do, no one 'makes' me have feelings. What other people say or do does't make me bad or good nor does it instill opportunity on me.
what i got i earned myself. If someone else wants a degree in engineering and a six figure salary, they can go work in a factory for five years at night and live 5 miserable years with no sleep while they do their college work in the daytime, and eat peanut butter sandwiches seven days a week and have no fucking life. Like I did. If they want tuition paid for, they can go clean tables at the university cafeteria like a lot of people that had no money did--so they could get an education and improve their lives.
No one is holding anyone back or denying anyone anything in the US. WE HAVE EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY--NOT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME. If someone can't cut the mustard, that is not my fault or responsibility.
the name of this thread should be 'Leftist Stinkers'
Read this over and over again, leftist stinkers. He is not talking from theory like you young uni propagandized people are. He speaks from experience, been there and done that. As a matter of fact, blacks have more opportunity than whites since they get a handout every time they turn around. Special scholarships and grants just for "minorities", quotas, etc and so on. If a white guy can make it swimming against the tide then a minority should be able to do it with half the effort. But its easier to whine and demand more handouts, isn't it?
This shame crap is just part of the victimology they teach now days. I'm surprised they have time for technical subjects in school today given all the propaganda they think is more important. You cis-wimps can wear hair shirts and beat yourselves bloody with a whip if you wish but I will pass.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
|
I have no idea what you and starfire are on about but it's way off-topic so I'm just going to assume you're both trolling.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
|
they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
|
Quote:
paperbackwriter said: The conclusion I've come to is that the act of self labeling is only useful to me personally when I'm using it for communication. Generally I try to keep an open mind and not become dogmatic in my thoughts, especially in relation to my self.
This 100%
reading up on wolf/brown, will get back more once I have.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246356 - 09/16/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Cool. Wolff is an economics professor so he's not talking about what your article is so much. I name dropped him because he's just really good at not blaming/shaming individuals and seeing issues in a systemic way.
Brene Brown talks a lot about shame and power but she's a psychologist so the scope is more individual than sociological.
I've been listening to this interview this afternoon and it's also a really good example of Wolff's composure and how he stays out of the blame/shame politics.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 33 minutes
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay] 1
#22246358 - 09/16/15 02:38 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said: they're having the same issues a qman. Anti-intellectualism mixed in with their own white guilt, leading them to claim victim. all the while making assumptions about other posters.
"own white guilt"
I don't think so, my Polish relatives came to US around 100 years ago, they made their own way, there's NOTHING to be guilty about. In fact, they could claim victimization by having to leave a hostile environment at the time, but guess what? They didn't!!
So where does your "white guilt" come from? That professor must have been laying it on real good, he got you hook, line, and sinker.
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246435 - 09/16/15 02:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so. I've volunteered at 1919 since it's opening, http://1919hemphill.org/about
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
Edited by airclay (09/16/15 02:56 PM)
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 33 minutes
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246455 - 09/16/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
|
paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246459 - 09/16/15 02:56 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
qman, again no one here nor the article itself was trying to shame you for being white. It was about how to avoid using shame, which itself is a mode of oppression, in anti-oppression movements.
Your own 'white guilt' comes from your selective reading of the article. It's pretty clear your initial response was a defensive reaction to something that the article never said.
Quote:
qman said:
"anti-oppression politics"
You mean blaming straight white males for all the problems of the world.
"good article"
Nope, just a pathetic whine from a bunch of liberals.
Defensive response.
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Astral Pain said: The title is an oxymoron.
I was thinking that was well, but there's plenty of liberals that have many good ideas, but when you start with the premise of diplomatically trying to blame white people for all of the problems in society (like the article does), you lose instant credibility.
Not what the article was talking about.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
Edited by paperbackwriter (09/16/15 02:58 PM)
|
airclay
Morbid and Wrong




Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 2,788
Loc: Texas
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: qman]
#22246460 - 09/16/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
I feel no shame for the skin I was born into, I do recognize that there is a system of white privilege at play.
-------------------- Give no fucks, take no orders, smash the prisons and the borders. Circle that A motherfucker!
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 1 hour, 33 minutes
|
Re: Leftist thinkers [Re: airclay]
#22246491 - 09/16/15 03:05 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
airclay said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
airclay said: y'all assumptions about me being in uni is laughable. I come from a family of blue collar workers. After high school, I did not attend uni. I worked and saved my money and bought my fathers painting business, allowing him to retire. I'm 30 (9/11/84) and have been self-employed since 24.
It is possible to be interested in things and educate yourself. As I have identified as anarchist since 14/15 or so.
qman, you're right white guilt was the wrong term, I could have worded it "anti-intellectualism mixed in w the products of shame culture"
You still didn't answer the question, where does your shame (white guilt) come from?
I feel no shame for the skin I was born into, I do recognize that there is a system of white privilege at play.
So you just take and use this white privilege everyday of your life without guilt or shame? That sounds like someone who has no moral compass, how do you sleep at night?
|
|