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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Mastermind Alliance
#22233458 - 09/13/15 07:04 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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 Hello fellow hobbyist! Do you enjoy the experimental side of this hobby? If the answer is yes then this is the thread for you. Here you can freely discuss your thoughts on experimental methods or ideas for growing fungi without threat of a locked thread. I shall begin. I have several ideas on oven sterilization for growing healthy mushrooms. I have ran some in the past with limited success as seen below:        These trays were put in the oven at 170F for 2 and 1/2 hours and inoculated with a blended PF cake. I'm running this again and have some cakes in the PC now that will be used to inoculate some more trays. I'm going to spawn the cakes to a tub this time and give them a proper environment unlike last time. ---- I will add in some more experimental trials as time goes on and everybody is welcome to share other experimental ideas or grows. HAPPY GROWING!
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackdust]
#22292839 - 09/26/15 10:51 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool story.
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Inocuole]
#22293718 - 09/26/15 01:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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bags
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackdust]
#22293720 - 09/26/15 01:40 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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jars
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Inocuole]
#22293751 - 09/26/15 01:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah spawn jars mixed into sub bags great for testing
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Tronix
Sir

Registered: 08/19/15
Posts: 95
Loc: This toilet earth
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackdust]
#22293977 - 09/26/15 02:43 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I took some quart jars with brf and injected them with liquid culture and corn syrup water, I made the brf a little dry so I could add extra liquid. I used a crap load of culture to see how long it will take to fully colonize hers a pic.  This is three days in i guessing from what I've seen should take about two weeks to fully colonize
-------------------- We all have demons, I just choose to feed mine.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Tronix]
#22297265 - 09/27/15 07:46 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tronix said: I made the brf a little dry so I could add extra liquid.
If you weigh your jars you can accurately monitor moisture levels. I have grown on grains which were dried out completely, I am talking drier than they originally were before cooking. I boiled them and drove the moisture off in a microwave allowing me to add loads of LC.
I have found that partially dry grains are not heat treated as easily. The more moisture the better. The moisture aids heat transfer while heating and the contaminants are supposed to be more susceptible to heat treatment when hydrated.
I have thought of doing PF jars in a microwave to heat treat them (note I am not saying sterilize to ward off the whinging hordes of moaning pedantic fuckers). If you make up a standard PF jar you could weigh it, then add more water and then microwave it. This way you can do it for long lengths of time and the excess water means more steam and more even heating. During the process more water can be added again and again. Then at the end if it is 20g lighter than the jar made at the correct moisture levels then you can afford to add 20ml of LC.
As for other experiments I have been wondering about novel sterile transfer ideas. One I wondered about is freezing, I have no idea how to use it just throwing it out there. Liquids could be frozen and form a ice plug in a bottle neck, they do this with champagne to remove yeast. I wondered if it would have a use in mycology, or something to do with freezing. I have been looking at pouring hot agar and using prechilled colonised dishes to get it to set faster. And wondered about having various different layers of agar for various reasons.
I am also currently trying out cold chemical treatment of petri dishes, both glass and disposable polystyrene ones which cannot be heat treated. I know Rush Wayne talked of resuing them using peroxide. My method was using a bleach & vinegar solution used in homebrewing for "no rinse santising" of bottles. I used much higher concentrations than they do, 10ml of 5% bleach, 10ml of 5% vinegar and 250ml of water. I filled my washed petris with this and let them sit for 20mins, first I swished the petris around with the solution so it went up the sides and hit the lids and out the side a little. Then they sat for 20mins, then I flipped them so the lids were steeped in the solution too. After another 20mins I held them on their side so the liquid drained out as much as possible. New air would be drawn in but the petris are still wet with the liquid.
Now I set them on a homebrew heating mat overnight and most of them were completely dry in the morning, if done for 24hours they should all be dry and the PS plastic ones were not deformed in any way. The vinegar in the bleach is meant to make it far more effective at killing contaminants, and also makes the bleach more unstable, so it should degrade fairly quickly.
I then injected hot agar in open air into these petris and have them resting to see if they contaminate.
I am sure the "why don't you just..." close minded brigade will be along to dismiss experiments like this as useless. Don't waste your time if you cannot realise the usefulness...
It would allow the use of containers that will not fit in your PC, or ones that are not heat treatable, or ones that slowly degrade upon repeated heating cycles. I have peroxidated agar in a PET coke bottle which is months old now and has not contaminated.
I also have tried the bleach & vinegar solution on grains which were transferred in open air to a PET bottle, I suspect this has become bacterial though. The bottle of grains was also calculatedly dried out on my heating pad.
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azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackdust]
#22297275 - 09/27/15 07:52 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
blackdust said:

Hello fellow hobbyist!
Do you enjoy the experimental side of this hobby? If the answer is yes then this is the thread for you. Here you can freely discuss your thoughts on experimental methods or ideas for growing fungi without threat of a locked thread.
I shall begin. I have several ideas on oven sterilization for growing healthy mushrooms. I have ran some in the past with limited success as seen below:
      
These trays were put in the oven at 170F for 2 and 1/2 hours and inoculated with a blended PF cake. I'm running this again and have some cakes in the PC now that will be used to inoculate some more trays. I'm going to spawn the cakes to a tub this time and give them a proper environment unlike last time.
---- I will add in some more experimental trials as time goes on and everybody is welcome to share other experimental ideas or grows.
HAPPY GROWING! 
Hahaha. The sHIVers of mush cult!
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: azur]
#22297299 - 09/27/15 08:08 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well dust you pretty much have already heard my suggestions on the PC less grain/substrate. Did you ever try the antibacterial dish soap idea? Or the limed grains? Seems to me like that is gonna be the route, limed grains have actually been done with some success.
Blackout i have made cakes with less water for the purpose of using loads of LC. Is there any benefit to microwaving off excess rather than simply just not adding as much to begin with?
Anyways as long as its in the spirit of obsevation and not advice I have no problem with shit like this. I have my own incredibly stupid plan for fruiting something retarded just cause I want to do it. First try was a horrible fail but I learned from it. Next round is gonna be better.
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taGyo
Strainiac/AMU



Registered: 10/16/14
Posts: 18,802
Loc: Journal Land
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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-------------------- Gyo's Better Grows TNF Q&A AMU Q&A Dominus fortunae meae sum
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Grey
⇜ ✯ ⇝



Registered: 11/06/14
Posts: 6,223
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: taGyo]
#22297405 - 09/27/15 08:43 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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--------------------
AMU Q&A If you don't have a plan of your own, you'll become a part of somebody else's.
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:Is there any benefit to microwaving off excess rather than simply just not adding as much to begin with?
I have found PCing semi hydrated grains does not work very well, the drier they are the closer it will be to oven cooking or dry sterilization which we know takes far longer. If you are steaming PF jars which are drier than normal I would give them more time. The microwave comments were more about being able to solely use a microwave, most people say microwaves are useless as moisture is driven off as though there is no way around this. They also say they are useless due to hot/cold spots. Both of these problems can be overcome, lots of water means lots of steam and even heating, and weighing allows accurate moisture levels. Grains are more likely to explode in a microwave, especially if over hydrated, RGS and rice being more forgiving.
If microwaving to a very dry state you should put a glass or jar of water in the microwave, this gives something to absorb the microwaves, otherwise you could start a fire as the now dry materials can get extremely hot. I have had several PP5 containers melt in a microwave, and got grains well over 150C, some smoking.
If you are steaming semi dry jars you might just cook for longer as microwaving could be more work/effort. I do believe the wetter it is the easier it is to kill off contaminants.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackout]
#22298477 - 09/27/15 12:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Of course, water is a good conductor. Just curious. Microwaves to me seem finicky, I would rather use the power of my big sterilizer. But I have used the microwave to hydrate grain fast, liquify agar, and I even treated casing with it once, ala V tek. So I am not a microwave hater.
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Tronix
Sir

Registered: 08/19/15
Posts: 95
Loc: This toilet earth
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackout]
#22300015 - 09/27/15 07:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I know about freezing the media would have to be flash frozen. If left to just freeze at a normal rate ice crystals build up on the inside of cells and rupture the cell membrane. Flash freezing on the other hand,like dunking something in liquid nitrogen, freezes something so rapidly the ice crystals don't have time to form though some still do. Study's are looking towards types of frogs that have the ability to be frozen completely without their cells rupturing. Scientists have found types of antifreeze agents in their cells and blood that allow this and it's totally awsome!
-------------------- We all have demons, I just choose to feed mine.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Tronix]
#22300508 - 09/27/15 08:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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blackout


Registered: 07/16/00
Posts: 5,266
Last seen: 2 months, 24 days
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Tronix]
#22303265 - 09/28/15 02:47 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tronix said: What I know about freezing the media would have to be flash frozen.
I am not even really thinking of freezing myc, just the use of freezing in general, just throwing it out there as food for thought. I know spores have been successfully frozen but do not think myc would survive under normal freezing methods.
I think there are novel methods people have not thought of. I have seen novel methods discussed and dismissed since people already have invested in flowhoods or made SABs etc. I am interested in getting people an easy start in the hobby, who may then progress to traditional methods which may prove far superior.
A hot needle can pass through ice easily, the top of the ice can be "decontaminated" with peroxide and perhaps separated from the rest of the jar contents in some way.
I think some very simple and novel methodology is out there to be discovered, or perhaps secretive sellers are already using it. I also would predict when it is discovered you will get people saying "ah yeah, sure I've been doing that for years, did I really not mention it before, thought it was too simple".
I saw it revealed that PF supposedly used weak agar solutions to make his syringes and have it suspended more evenly. I wonder if thicker non nutritive agar would help in syringes in allowing you to put individual drops onto plates without it running off to the sides so easily, I guess it would.
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackout]
#22303448 - 09/28/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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thank you for coming in here blackout! I admire your work!!!!
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 19 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: blackdust]
#22304716 - 09/28/15 07:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I do believe the wetter it is the easier it is to kill off contaminants.
No doubt about that. Coming into contact with hot water vapor is more damaging that coming into contact with hot air of the same temperature. That's because they inflict damage through different processes so it's not strictly a matter of heat transfer rate.
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invitro

Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: Kizzle]
#22305699 - 09/28/15 10:36 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:That's because they inflict damage through different processes so it's not strictly a matter of heat transfer rate.
I'd like to hear more about this topic, can you explain further about the different processes?
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,855
Last seen: 19 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Mastermind Alliance [Re: invitro]
#22306047 - 09/29/15 12:16 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wet heat kills by denaturing proteins while the dry heat oxidizes. Different reactions have different activation energies. Of course the dry heat doesn't stop at oxidizing the microbes so if the necessary temperature to sterilize is attained it tends to burn other organic material as well. However dry heat can also kill some organisms at lower temperatures through desiccation.
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