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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced?
    #22225547 - 09/12/15 02:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It doesn't take much looking to see that the rate of divorce is skyrocketing, and all around me I see couples who clash endlessly. It seems that men and women, aside of seeking union with one another, don't generally get on that well.

It's got me wondering what the causes are. I've heard the old saying 'men are from Mars, women are from Venus' and I've observed that the sexes seem to be motivated by quite different factors (of course this is all a massive generalisation). It even seems that there are quite noticeable differences in the way we think.

Has culture played a role in the division of the sexes? I've heard of some interesting studies where boys are raised as girls and vice-versa, so it would seem that nurture plays quite a significant role.

But I can't help but think the divide seems to be growing. Is this something to do with steadily increasing gender equality, or are there other factors at work here?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22225794 - 09/12/15 05:07 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

No, the lines are more blurred.  If Father Knows Best were still in vogue, we would all be better off IMO.  Ward needed to be a little hard on the Beaver...


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleSun King
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22225854 - 09/12/15 06:06 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If women would stay in the kitchen having babies and stop the back talk things would be fine.


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OfflineWScott
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Sun King] * 1
    #22225965 - 09/12/15 07:12 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Androgyny is more common than ever right now. Too hard to tell to what extent 'gender expression' is based on genetics and immediate family upbringing and to what extent it is based on the rampant cultural conditioning which instructs men and women, boys and girls on how to behave like their own sex.

edit - And then also how genetics and family upbringing can impact how a person reacts to the cultural definitions, ignoring them, adhering to them, rebelling against them, etc.


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Edited by WScott (09/12/15 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22226403 - 09/12/15 09:54 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Let's face it, you're right.  I think LE is right that a lot of lines that used to be firmly in place have been blurred.  I don't know whether we were really better off in the past, with its greater rigidity, but things are definitely not good now.  Men and women are on completely different wavelengths, and are really at cross-purposes for the most part, and seeing a truly happy marriage is like finding the Hope Diamond in your backyard.  Steadily increasing gender equality, and the confusion of masculine and feminine roles and types, must be a factor, among others.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22226509 - 09/12/15 10:30 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Men and women are on completely different wavelengths, and are really at cross-purposes for the most part, and seeing a truly happy marriage is like finding the Hope Diamond in your backyard.



You got it right there DQ, this is what I'm really driving at here. I feel like this situation is becoming steadily exacerbated, and I'm trying to understand why...


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22226619 - 09/12/15 11:01 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there is no clear definition of what a man or a woman are supposed to be.  A hundred years ago there was a very clear definition.  And that definition is what all of the Susan B. Anthonys of the world worked very hard to dissolve.  Perhaps it's a matter of the confusion arising from not knowing who you are supposed to be in the eyes of a partner.

Or maybe it's just that the unfair sex has run amok. :laugh:

I dunno.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22226936 - 09/12/15 12:39 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

For Bruce Jenner to get awarded after "coming out" as a woman at the ESPYs is pretty telling.  Such courage, it's inspiring.  Really?  He got his balls busted by all those women and including his own daughters he literally had to become one to compete.  Then to profit from a TV reality show as this new woman, when he barely got short straw on the other show, isn't this new paradigm a great thing?


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22227319 - 09/12/15 02:23 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

if the divide between the two sexes is becoming more pronounced it's because the existence of the two sexes is becoming less relevant, imo, which is a good thing


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OfflineTripSip
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22227517 - 09/12/15 03:11 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Not sure. I guess that judging from the media and internet alone you get that kind of perception at the moment.

"Has culture played a role in the division of the sexes? I've heard of some interesting studies where boys are raised as girls and vice-versa, so it would seem that nurture plays quite a significant role."

What sort of studies have you been reading though? Its just that there are a number of psychological studies that have ended tragically (David Reimer).


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InvisiblepachooDiscord
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22228371 - 09/12/15 06:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

It's hard to tell if it's actually a sexes thing or a personality thing for me...

For one you have society telling you how you should be, what you should expect, what to aspire to be, being masculine/feminine, or being completely irrelevant sexually at all. When I listen to it, I become very confused. I should want this? I should want that? I shouldn't have to deal with problems in a relationship that happens to be so small?

Get a man like this. Have a woman do that. Be the traditional, be the opposite. Be this to your partner. Don't let them do that. You have to be a strong woman. You have to be a strong man.

Aiming so high that you eventually exhaust yourself and end up disappointed with what you 'should' be able to receive/be. Listening to others instead of feeling what is right for you. You can do it all, they said. You don't need anyone else, but you deserve the best.

We want, want, want.

In a sense, it seems like males and females are looking for the next 'upgraded' partner. So instead of enjoying each other, they bicker and nitpick and destroy how they connected in the first place. Which makes them think they are intensely different.

I think alot of people get hung up on what they think they are promised.

Once you figure out who you are and tangible goals within the opposite/same sex and find a balance, I'm sure it's a lot easier. Electrical currents come to my mind when trying to visualize it. Balancing input/output. Balancing masculine/feminine with each other. 



(I am not talking about abuse or anything. That's never acceptable. Just general aspirations.)


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:heartpump::heartpump: :heartpump::heartpump:


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: pachoo]
    #22232522 - 09/13/15 04:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that there is no clear definition of what a man or a woman are supposed to be.  A hundred years ago there was a very clear definition.  And that definition is what all of the Susan B. Anthonys of the world worked very hard to dissolve.  Perhaps it's a matter of the confusion arising from not knowing who you are supposed to be in the eyes of a partner.



I think that's a very perceptive suggestion DQ, something that I had not considered. It resonates with me, certainly. I guess it's quite hard to be objective about this kind of thing as so much of it takes place behind closed doors.

Quote:

pachoo said:
For one you have society telling you how you should be, what you should expect, what to aspire to be, being masculine/feminine, or being completely irrelevant sexually at all. When I listen to it, I become very confused. I should want this? I should want that? I shouldn't have to deal with problems in a relationship that happens to be so small?

Get a man like this. Have a woman do that. Be the traditional, be the opposite. Be this to your partner. Don't let them do that. You have to be a strong woman. You have to be a strong man.

Aiming so high that you eventually exhaust yourself and end up disappointed with what you 'should' be able to receive/be. Listening to others instead of feeling what is right for you. You can do it all, they said. You don't need anyone else, but you deserve the best.

We want, want, want.

In a sense, it seems like males and females are looking for the next 'upgraded' partner. So instead of enjoying each other, they bicker and nitpick and destroy how they connected in the first place. Which makes them think they are intensely different.



That's an amazing post pachoo, really like that. I think it follows on quite naturally from what DQ said; there's no clear definition because we're all so fucking confused by the ridiculous level of input coming in about what we should be/want, and it's all so fucking contradictory!

Rather than just being ourselves in a relationship, we look to society to tell us what we should be/want. Which is a shit situation, because our society is sick.

I recall reading something recently that suggested that many years ago, women would see their man [mostly] as a provider/protector, and perhaps wouldn't have expected a high level of emotional support from him; instead seeking this in family/other women. I'm sure this counts for men too. However now days, our partners are expected to be able to provide everything one could ever need in one handy, easy to reach package.

It strikes me that compartmentalising our needs and not expecting a single person to fulfill them all would be a more mature and healthy situation. But, oh fuck what's that? What, culture has fed us a bunch of lies to tell us that a single person can be everything you ever need?

What, society has lied to us!? Well I never...


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22236060 - 09/14/15 10:58 AM (8 years, 4 months ago)

If anything, gender equity should be an equalizing factor. However, I notice that even professional women still have a large mapped out surface of their brain (in those humorous depictions) that is labelled as a shoe fetish. What is it about women and shoes (forget about effete men)? I mean, high heels DO make a woman's legs appear to be longer (which is one sexual fetish which many people appreciate - long legs), but stilettos are also 'dangerous' and could put an eye out :lol: . Danger is a sexual fetish, the femme fatale trip. High heels also serve to put women on platforms, literally if they are platform heels (stripper-shoes). One might think that the professional woman is about business, but they are often not honest about such fetishes, and by fetish, I do not necessarily mean an object that serves to cause sexual arousal, but in the pre-Freudian sense of a magickal object imbued with power. Nevertheless, sex and magick (power) obviously overlap. A woman in a position of power (3rd chakra), who creates an appearance which utilizes fetishistic accoutrements (stiletto heels, facial makeup (one of the "enchantments" the fallen angels or Watchers taught to women in the Book of Enoch), earings (the oldest and most socially accepted piercing/'mutilation' in our culture), painted nails (exaggerating a certain animal quality of claws and danger) is using sexuality in the service of power. Meanwhile, those individuals who are powerful can use their power in the service of sex to intimidate subservient workers into having sex if they want to keep their jobs, or perhaps for promotional reasons. I knew a Lesbian counselor who slept with her male principal and became an assistant principal overnight.

What you might be seeing is more females engaging their 2nd and 3rd chakras in the manner in which men have exercised these powers in times past. With more women assuming positions of power instead of merely remaining in subservient roles, the male-female roles have equalized, but the equalization may appear to be one-sided. It's like desegregation when racist Whites thought they were being 'taken over' by a Black population which was only 10-12% of the total population. It 'appeared' to be a takeover relative to the absence of Black people amongst the Whites. There were civil rights clashes Black with White, but even now, women are still paid less for the same position than men are, and it's women who have been oppressed by the patriarchy. Watch the show Madmen, for example, to get a look at how women were regarded and treated between 1960 and1970. Men thought nothing of slapping or pinching their secretaries bottoms, or referring to then as 'honey,' or 'sweetheart,' or darlin'. You never saw female CEOs back then.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22246015 - 09/16/15 01:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

The first sentence of OP is "It doesn't take much looking to see that the rate of divorce is skyrocketing....."

    This was only true from the early 60's to the late 70's. Since then the rate is declining.  The main theories for this:
1. The increase took place when society was adjusting to female equality.
2. Baby boomers were most likely to get divorced. Later generations are divorcing at lower rates.
3. People are getting married at older ages and are not so immature when they decide to get married.

    The downward slope in the divorce rate is much less steep than the previous increase, but the declining slope has been steady.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineCuriousMind

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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #22247210 - 09/16/15 05:51 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Gender dynamics have shifted greatly over the past few decades and very little thought has been given to just what effect this would have. At the moment I think the most immediately concerning issue is the dissolution of the family which in turn erodes basic moral values and decreases the overall productivity of younger generations.

One thing that stands out to me as a blatantly obvious problem with enormous negative consequences is the unfairness and bias of family and divorce court. We have allowed an institution which is supposed to help people and protect families to become infected with political and gender bias on one hand with the judges, and on the other its being held hostage by lawyers who feed on misery by syphoning money from parents and influencing the divorcees to hurt and take advantage of each other. As we all know this most often takes the form of the wife/mother being encouraged and awarded for bad behavior while the husband/father loses his kids, property and enters into indentured servitude. This whole situation has become pervasive and infected the very idea of marriage and gender dynamics. The advantages that women hold in this arena, along with the blind unconditional support they get from law enforcement has given them too much power.

So unfortunately when women become married, they almost immediately start to change, and whether they consciously realize it or not they start wielding their power over their spouses. Soon we see orders being given out like a drill sergeant. It stops looking like a healthy relationship and more like one person dominating another.

One more observation I've personally experienced is that among the dating pool of younger women they seem to expect so much and give so little in return. Its become too one-sided, there is less 'giving' and more 'taking' going on, basically.

I know how this is gonna sound but I think much of the problem is honestly being caused by females and modern day feminism. But society itself is effecting them and causing them to be this way. From the way they are raised, the way they are treated, the mixed messages they get from feminism, the court systems and so on.

There are just so many other things to consider as well. Our world has become too fucking complicated with all the conflicting information out there. Even our biology is being changed on a fundamental level by the way we live, the things we eat, hormonal changes etc.

And then there is feminism. A small vocal minority continue to lie about "rape culture" and rape statistics, they cause women to be paranoid and to think of all men in a negative way. Their is a loss in trust which goes both ways as more men see their peers being so harshly wronged by their own spouses. The feminists talk about the "patriarchy" constantly and "male privilege", but all the actual hard evidence seems to point to men being the truly marginalized and disposable gender.

What we do know is that males represent the majority of the homeless, the drug addicted, commit suicide more often, are beaten and murdered more often, and males are the majority of school drop-outs. We also statistically die earlier and are punished much more harshly for the same crimes. Females may get paid a little less, but males work longer hours on average and harder more physical and dangerous jobs. And yet virtually all government and medical gender-based aid is given to females. And this is pushed by feminism, not some bizarre "patriarchy" which seems to only victimize the very people who they claim are in control. Not to mention there is a serious problem with the way young boys are being treated in school. There are no positive male role models, and they are too often punished, shamed and even drugged simply for displaying normal healthy male behavior.

Don't get me wrong though. Its not like I think women = bad and wrong and men = good and right. I'm just looking at the basic facts and the causes and effects. I think the pendulum swung too far in the opposite direction and hopefully it will center itself one day.

I don't support the "red pill" way of thinking either. I do think they are right to point out the facts about feminism and modern-day issues that males face. Too often both men and women just want to say "man up" or "stop whining" when in reality the right thing to do is to have an honest and open discussion about this and stand up for yourself and others when you feel something is seriously wrong. But as for the "Red Pill", I think they have a tendency to oversimplify things and sometimes they even emulate bad behavior displayed by many of the worst feminists. At the worst they teach men to retaliate by taking advantage of women and 'gaming' them for sex and encourage psychological manipulation. At best, they talk about how to 'go your own way' and exist in a world with this unique set of problems as a man with self-respect who can live his own way by himself (though surely gaming women and spewing bitter vitriol won't help). But little to no emphasis is given on how things might possibly be fixed. They seem to have just adopted the attitude of "well, its broken so I guess that's that" and ignore how important and fulfilling it is to unite with a woman and start a family together.

So that's not the answer, but frankly I don't have the answer either. I just know its good for both genders to wake up and see that the path we are headed down is just going to lead to loneliness and an increase in misery for everyone. There are studies showing that females are more miserable now than before, which is why more and more are starting to open up to the idea that something has gone wrong.


Edited by CuriousMind (09/16/15 07:40 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: CuriousMind]
    #22247365 - 09/16/15 06:27 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

When I was a kid my friend told me his dad told him "Women are like water and men are like stones. It's the woman's job to wear down the stone, and it's the stones job to resist the water."

Didn't really understand that at the time.

Women want men to be like them. Or at least many of them have a desire for men to be as they perceive themselves. More feminine. More compassionate, more patient and understanding, more prim and beautiful, more joyful, more expressive, more emotional. But the ability for such a state to exist in nature is based upon the polarity of it and if polarity were to vanish, there would be nothing rather than one.

Something like this on a wide scale would normally be impossible in nature, but technology both in and of itself and in it's effect on social conventions from familial to national and even international has revealed new potentials. Technology helps make "our lives" easier. Government is here to keep "us" safe. In both cases the polarity has shifted away from the historical appearance of polarity. IOW, technology and government are "the man" and we collectively are "the woman" or "the bitches" depending on how it's perceived. Historically "the man" was always at the mercy of higher powers, being specifically "the rest of nature". We were all God's bitches.

I've found that such ahistorical contents are not so different from the real thing, though it does take a careful bit of "spin" to keep that particular top spinning. I suspect such states are ultimately unsustainable, or at least there is no less measure of strife to be found within the maintenance of these novel aberrations. It is as it always was. Unequal in practice.


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rahz

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22247470 - 09/16/15 06:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

I thought it would be fun to share what Mr. William S. Burroughs' thoughts on the matter were.  (This in no way reflects my own views, necessarily.  Just for fun.)

Quote:

"In the words of one of the great misogynists, plain Mr. Jones in Joseph Conrad's Victory, 'Women are a perfect curse.'  I think they were a basic mistake and the whole dualistic universe evolved from this error.

"American women are possibly one of the worst expressions of the female sex because they've been allowed to go further...America is a matriarchal, white supremacist country.  There seems to be a definite link between matriarchy and white supremacy."

--from Literary Outlaw by Ted Morgan





For fun.  Refreshing fucking fun.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22248297 - 09/16/15 09:09 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

No, feminist extremists and other social justice warrior types are just louder then all the other voices in the conversation.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs


Edited by Cognitive_Shift (09/17/15 11:18 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #22251203 - 09/17/15 01:15 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I thought it would be fun to share what Mr. William S. Burroughs' thoughts on the matter were.  (This in no way reflects my own views, necessarily.  Just for fun.)

Quote:

"In the words of one of the great misogynists, plain Mr. Jones in Joseph Conrad's Victory, 'Women are a perfect curse.'  I think they were a basic mistake and the whole dualistic universe evolved from this error.

"American women are possibly one of the worst expressions of the female sex because they've been allowed to go further...America is a matriarchal, white supremacist country.  There seems to be a definite link between matriarchy and white supremacy."

--from Literary Outlaw by Ted Morgan





For fun.  Refreshing fucking fun.





Your post reminded me of this scene in 'The Witches of Eastwick':



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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is the divide between the sexes becoming more pronounced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22252563 - 09/17/15 06:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
It doesn't take much looking to see that the rate of divorce is skyrocketing, and all around me I see couples who clash endlessly. It seems that men and women, aside of seeking union with one another, don't generally get on that well.

It's got me wondering what the causes are. I've heard the old saying 'men are from Mars, women are from Venus' and I've observed that the sexes seem to be motivated by quite different factors (of course this is all a massive generalisation). It even seems that there are quite noticeable differences in the way we think.

Has culture played a role in the division of the sexes? I've heard of some interesting studies where boys are raised as girls and vice-versa, so it would seem that nurture plays quite a significant role.

But I can't help but think the divide seems to be growing. Is this something to do with steadily increasing gender equality, or are there other factors at work here?




I really have no clue on a large scale. Sometimes I get pretty annoyed with the female portrayal in the media and maybe that's indicative of the larger scale though. For instance I want my partner to feel capable, powerful, strong, willful, fulfilled, and valued. But when I watch a show such as America Ninja Warrior and watch constant focus on one female who made it through the course a year ago while a few hundred guys who've completed the same and more get 30-seconds or less, it jades me.

Not because I don't want to see a female succeed. I do. A female completing some of those obstacle courses would blow my mind and leave me shocked. No, it jades me because it feels stilted. Over-favoring.

The more I think about it the more bizarre it strikes me. On the one hand, extra-coverage makes sense. Cover the top female as much as you would cover the top male, even though she may not make it nearly as far. Another part of me wonders why that sort of equality has any place in our society at all. Where upper-body strength is the measure of success, a male has the advantage biologically. So why choose something so disparate as a point to try and create equality?

When the disparity is clear, to try and play equal is insane in some respects. It isn't equal. It's forced, obvious, and IMO often tiresome. Maybe it takes that forced nature to make any progress though. Maybe women do need to be engaged in extreme upper body activity because that's where we are socially. I don't really know. Like I said, I can't seem to grok what's happening currently on any large scale. And again maybe this is actually indicative of the larger scale. My personal lack of understanding of what's going on can lead to frustration. And perhaps the male populace is frustrated by this -- by not knowing wtf society is trying to accomplish. Having kids with no parents around because both are working doesn't seem to be helpful. The "extra" income didn't really play out as extra. It seems to have added strain on the family unit, created additional stress, and ambiguity in roles. Maybe women are just trying to progress anywhere and everywhere and guys can't grok that push at all. Maybe I am just too goal oriented. I want to see some benefit from this and haven't so far. Maybe women have and I'm jealous :smile:

On a personal level it strikes me as odd that we don't try to provide women with power, confidence, and success using more innate qualities but instead try to push some rather illogical boundaries. But boundaries are always pushed and sometimes turn out extremely beneficial to society. Truly, who gives a fuck if a few guys have to suffer? We've just been pampered too long.


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