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Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: badchad]
#22236411 - 09/14/15 12:30 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
topdog82 said:
Im sure MDMA is great for removing depressive symptoms. Doesn't make it a smart long term solution to a problem is all
But by your logic, depression doesn't exist either since its subjectively diagnosed as well.
This is the hesitancy associated with psychiatry, the lack of objective physiological criteria will always hamper its acceptance.
It's really the best thing we have.
There is no blood test to determine if you have ADD or depression. The best you can do is have a conversation with your doctor and they will evaluate you and see if you meet a criteria.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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You'll know something's wrong if you have it. Your life won't be right. Nobody that really has it, is somehow not aware that something is wrong. Its unmistakable.
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topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: badchad]
#22236568 - 09/14/15 01:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
topdog82 said:
Im sure MDMA is great for removing depressive symptoms. Doesn't make it a smart long term solution to a problem is all
But by your logic, depression doesn't exist either since its subjectively diagnosed as well.
This is the hesitancy associated with psychiatry, the lack of objective physiological criteria will always hamper its acceptance.
Most depression is overdiagnosed and this isn't a lofty or surprising claim. Experts in the field back me up on this
Some percentage of people who are diagnosed as "depressed" do indeed have an uncurable lifelong disease sometimes inherited through genetics and marked by irreversible macrostructural issues in the brain from birth
Their brains literally cannot produce enough seretonin. It is not a recent phenomina. There are people with depression all of the world, in every country since the dawn of mankind and can be traced through families. We know the biological/structural issues that contribute to the symptoms of depression and they are not temporary or curable. Healthy lifestyle choices can help, but my buddy has traced his suicidal depression back up to 4 generations. His great grandparents were in a small village in Iran, and had 0 idea what a psychiatrist was and displayed clear signs of suidical tendencies despite being rich and well off as a family. Clinical depression isn't new and there is a lot of evidence to make the claim about it that I made above
BC; I am ignoring any of your posts regarding science or logic. I enjoy your other posts. Typically witty or funny. But your incredibly illogical and I refuse to argue with you ever. You have done a great job of contorting and exaggerating my fairly straightforward and scientifically backed thesis
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topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
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Quote:
Bitter Cactus said:
Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
topdog82 said:
Im sure MDMA is great for removing depressive symptoms. Doesn't make it a smart long term solution to a problem is all
But by your logic, depression doesn't exist either since its subjectively diagnosed as well.
This is the hesitancy associated with psychiatry, the lack of objective physiological criteria will always hamper its acceptance.
It's really the best thing we have.
There is no blood test to determine if you have ADD or depression. The best you can do is have a conversation with your doctor and they will evaluate you and see if you meet a criteria.
Well actually yes. I was just tested on this for my neuroanatomy class. There has been some success in a blood test for depression. They will check for inactive seretonin metabolites in the blood stream. If there are consistenly low levels throughout your life, and throughout therapy, treatment etc. its clear your brain lacks the ability to produce seretonin
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Beanhead
IS IRONIC PARADOX


Registered: 10/11/08
Posts: 17,257
Loc: Geospatial inversion.
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: topdog82]
#22236625 - 09/14/15 01:21 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Amphetamines chill me out
I has adhd gib drugs now pls
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Dr.Wongburger
Yes!!


Registered: 08/23/15
Posts: 1,308
Loc: Colorado, USA
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: topdog82]
#22236664 - 09/14/15 01:32 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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You know I realized I mistakenly responded to you under false pretenses. I went back and edited but you must of already been replying. lol.
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topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
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Quote:
Dr.Wongburger said: You know I realized I mistakenly responded to you under false pretenses. I went back and edited but you must of already been replying. lol.
Lmao. I was wondering the same
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cosmicg
ForeverLost



Registered: 08/30/15
Posts: 138
Loc: HERE
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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I hate the system as well but unfortunately I fell victim due to my own selfish motives. I tried to tell my Doc wanted off and he said that it was impossible, that I would always need to be medicated for the rest of my life for my bi-polar and anxiety.
This is why I am getting ready to go to a treatment facility in Colorado. I live in Ohio, and when I admitted myself they took all my benzos away and put me on Neurontin and loads of Seroquel. That is not okay.
I signed myself out against medical supervision, and now I am getting ready to go to a facility in Colorado, where hopefully they can taper me the right way. I tried doing it on my own using RC benzos like Diclazepam but it just didn't work for me due to lack of will power I suppose.
Sorry to be so off topic, a lot on my mind, I'm scared to back into treatment but what I am doing is not working.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: topdog82]
#22236777 - 09/14/15 01:54 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
topdog82 said:
Well actually yes. I was just tested on this for my neuroanatomy class. There has been some success in a blood test for depression. They will check for inactive seretonin metabolites in the blood stream. If there are consistenly low levels throughout your life, and throughout therapy, treatment etc. its clear your brain lacks the ability to produce seretonin
This is patently false. There are no blood tests for depression, nor are there "macrostructural changes" used for a clinical diagnoses. All of the diagnoses are questionnaire-based. HAM-D, DSM, etc.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: badchad]
#22236800 - 09/14/15 02:02 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teens with major depression had 17% smaller hippocampus volume than the control group, reports MacMaster.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20040129/brain-structure-linked-to-major-depression
A quick google search revealed this. I guess brain scans arent part of the diagnosis, but we do indeed have marked structural issues in major depression
Also, the seretonin metabolite post was simply a study done by researchers. It isn't something done regulalry though. They found limited success. I could try and look through my notes later for it
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: topdog82] 1
#22236833 - 09/14/15 02:10 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
topdog82 said: Teens with major depression had 17% smaller hippocampus volume than the control group, reports MacMaster.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20040129/brain-structure-linked-to-major-depression
A quick google search revealed this. I guess brain scans arent part of the diagnosis, but we do indeed have marked structural issues in major depression
Associations and correlations aren't diagnostic. ADHD has also been associated with genetics and structural changes as well.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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topdog82
Death Spirit



Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 7,992
Loc: California
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: badchad]
#22236869 - 09/14/15 02:22 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
topdog82 said: Teens with major depression had 17% smaller hippocampus volume than the control group, reports MacMaster.
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20040129/brain-structure-linked-to-major-depression
A quick google search revealed this. I guess brain scans arent part of the diagnosis, but we do indeed have marked structural issues in major depression
Associations and correlations aren't diagnostic. ADHD has also been associated with genetics and structural changes as well.
But are those changes proven to be uncurable? This is the question?
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: topdog82]
#22237261 - 09/14/15 03:44 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
topdog82 said:
But are those changes proven to be uncurable? This is the question?
In the case of an inherited genetic predisposition (e.g., for example, a study of identical twins) those changes wouldn't change. As far as structural brain changes are concerned, first one would have to reliably establish they are causal for a disorder, and then show they resolve in conjunction with the clinical syndrome.
Since none of these changes have been established as causal, I'd assume none have been shown to resolve (or change back).
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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Quote:
Dr.Wongburger said: You know I realized I mistakenly responded to you under false pretenses. I went back and edited but you must of already been replying. lol.
You're going back to dickplanet.
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specialpeopleclub



Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: bennylava]
#22239849 - 09/15/15 06:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: You'll know something's wrong if you have it. Your life won't be right. Nobody that really has it, is somehow not aware that something is wrong. Its unmistakable.
Ever thought your life isnt right because you are surrounded by morons and entrenched in a culture that doesnt help one fufill themself in any meaningful way?
--------------------
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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no, it's because some people get hyperfocused, some get unfocused, some are always rambunctious, some cannot sit still, ect ect
ADHD has alot of varying symptoms. and by symptoms i mean you cannot adjust even if you'd wanted to.
i know i don't, but there are plenty who do and they can't, hence medicine of any sort that can help is appropriate. now what medicine to take, i can't be too sure, i don't take any, and i'm not a doctor, but i know one thing, if it helps it helps.
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bennylava
Bad example


Registered: 05/29/15
Posts: 587
Last seen: 6 years, 9 months
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You people...
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Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: bennylava]
#22240689 - 09/15/15 10:33 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: You people...
You can go to your hippy island where everyone with mental disorders eats mushrooms and meditates and it all goes away.
In the real world, stimulants are the best treatment for ADD. It is not just being distracted. There is a thorough process and an evaluation that must take place that goes over a broad list of different situations and symptoms you might have to get a proper diagnosis.
ADD is just as legitimate as any other mental disorder. If you are like topdog and think no mental disorder is real and people with clinical depression should just be happy then you can subscribe to that idea but the entire medical and scientific community agrees that these disorders are real and require and evaluation and treatment from a medical professional and not some guy on the internet that says he has the cure.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: ADHD does not exist... [Re: bennylava]
#22240739 - 09/15/15 10:45 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
bennylava said: You people...
you people? what is that supposed to mean, "you people"?
i may be slicker then a bilge-rat but i ain't no "you people".
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Bitter Cactus
reformed bad boy



Registered: 01/26/12
Posts: 11,773
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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He is saying you people because saying ADD is real condition here and trusting modern medicine is like the biggest sin you can commit.
-------------------- Taking acid and thinking you are a better man is a lot different then actually becoming a better man.
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