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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: qman]
#22317026 - 10/01/15 12:31 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Is this going to be a semantics debate? The people that have flooded Europe the past 15 years are mainly from Northern Africa, who gives a crap if they left for economic or political reasons, or even both? What difference does it make? They fled their homelands and invaded another country.
This is not semantics. Refugees and immigrants are not the same. Refugees are forced from their homes by violence and war. They are not leaving a country because they can't make a living, they are leaving because it is a struggle to stay alive.
What difference does it make? Well, first, motivation. These people who are leaving know the hell hole they left and will do anything to never return to it. Second, refugees come from all walks of life, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. War affects everyone equally. Immigrants tend to be low skill and low education, because those with higher skills do okay enough to stay. Finally, number. Immigrants come over years and years and the number is huge in the end. Refugees come all at once, and while it is a lot to handle immediately, in the end, their numbers are relatively small.
Also, for some reason this isn't a popular justification, but compassion. Most people here can't even fathom what these refugees are going through. They aren't "invading." They are fleeing. They went through horrific conditions and I would hope most people are compassionate enough to recognize that. I can understand not being compassionate to immigrants, but the refugees deserve a human life, and we as humans should do what we can to help.
Quote:
"evidence that refugees (immigrants) create lasting negative effects"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/2011/02/10/sarkozy-says-multiculturalism-a-failure/
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994
"State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron"
The Muslim population in Europe creates a massive disproportional amount of violent crime into the EU, this is a fact!! It doesn't matter what you want to call them- refugees or illegal immigrants. 
Multiculturalism refers to decades of immigrants moving into Europe, not a sudden influx of refugees lasting a few months.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 21,590
Loc: Dallas with all the assho...
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22317050 - 10/01/15 12:44 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I understand that it is survival--these people are going where there might be food and shelter, and hope.. i get it. but at some point there will be too many--and it will be bad for the overall good of the countries.
It's rather like the problem of 10 people in a lifeboat, and food and water enough for 8--who are the two that are going to get thrown overboard?
Face it, the socialist types always want to do what's good for the collective--so what if NOt letting more in is what is good (and prudent)?
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Yeah. I'm really second guessing letting them in. The women and children I wouldn't have a problem with but the amount of rape going on is really bad. We have enough violence towards women in our culture already I don't think we need to add fuel to the fire.
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BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: starfire_xes] 1
#22318006 - 10/01/15 09:05 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said: I understand that it is survival--these people are going where there might be food and shelter, and hope.. i get it. but at some point there will be too many--and it will be bad for the overall good of the countries.
It's rather like the problem of 10 people in a lifeboat, and food and water enough for 8--who are the two that are going to get thrown overboard?
Face it, the socialist types always want to do what's good for the collective--so what if NOt letting more in is what is good (and prudent)?
What point is too many? Only 150,000 refugees have declared asylum in Europe. The millions that people feared, are still in Turkey and other Middle East countries. I'll remind everyone again, that the Bosnian War created 2,000,000 refugees, the majority of which were Muslim. I am unaware of any crime increases or economic downturns as a result of Europe accepting those refugees.
Sure, there could be problems with accepting refugees, but as of right now, those are just assumptions. I posted a couple studies that said the net effect is positive, you don't have to believe them if you don't want, but given how many refugee crises have occurred around the world, you should be able to find studies that describe the negative effects of accepting refugees, assuming they are as prevalent as you say. I have yet to see any of these studies.
Refugees are being refused on the hypothetical grounds that they will cause harm, which is ignoring the very real harm of turning them away.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22318022 - 10/01/15 09:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Refugees are being refused on the hypothetical grounds that they will cause harm, which is ignoring the very real harm of turning them away.
Well said
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paperbackwriter
Edward Lear


Registered: 03/31/14
Posts: 1,888
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22318133 - 10/01/15 09:36 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Refugees are being refused on the hypothetical grounds that they will cause harm, which is ignoring the very real harm of turning them away.
There's a lot of refugees being raped in the German camps and have been several reports of refugees raping German nationals. We can also look at the crime rates in Europe from muslim immigration and see parallels. I don't see how that's a hypothetical.
I don't want to turn them away but I don't want women I love and care about getting raped either.
-------------------- Why should we strive with cynic frown To knock their fairy castles down? ~ Eliza Cook It's rather embarrassing to have given one's entire life to pondering the human predicament and to find that in the end one has little more to say than, 'Try to be a little kinder.' ~Aldous Huxley
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: 'Merica
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Refugees are being refused on the hypothetical grounds that they will cause harm, which is ignoring the very real harm of turning them away.
There's a lot of refugees being raped in the German camps and have been several reports of refugees raping German nationals. We can also look at the crime rates in Europe from muslim immigration and see parallels. I don't see how that's a hypothetical.
I don't want to turn them away but I don't want women I love and care about getting raped either.
This is where you have to be careful, though.
Obviously, the people at the top don't want these refugees, their decisions are the reason they exist in the first place. So maybe by if you throw a shoddy budget at them, things will inevitably go wrong and then you have the public inertia to close your border on them.
I'm not trying to excuse any reprehensible behavior by the refugees or anyone else, but it's kinda like if you were a mayor and you didn't want a prison in your city because it will fuck up real estate and perception and resources, so you hire shit guards, build crappy fences, let a few prisoners escape and some others get murdered. Then you have an excuse to move the prison by claiming lack of resources. At the very least you'll get more money to throw at the problem.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,510
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
There's a lot of refugees being raped in the German camps and have been several reports of refugees raping German nationals.
Is there any indication of what these refugees were wearing?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,866
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: Enlil]
#22318331 - 10/01/15 10:16 AM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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--------------------
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



Registered: 05/14/15
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Quote:
Obviously, the people at the top don't want these refugees, their decisions are the reason they exist in the first place. So maybe by if you throw a shoddy budget at them, things will inevitably go wrong and then you have the public inertia to close your border on them.
But Obama and his minions DO want them...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said:
Quote:
Obviously, the people at the top don't want these refugees, their decisions are the reason they exist in the first place. So maybe by if you throw a shoddy budget at them, things will inevitably go wrong and then you have the public inertia to close your border on them.
But Obama and his minions DO want them...
Why?
So there's a floodlit, barbed wired reminder of his administration's foreign policy blunders right down the street?
Ok.
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hostileuniverse
Stranger



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That doesn't even make sense troll, him and Kerry have said they want up to 200,000, so yes, the people at the top DO want them...
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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They WANT up to 200,000? Or they're prepared to accept up to 200,000?
None of these Western governments WANT these refugees, that should be abundantly clear to anyone who understands policy.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: Enlil]
#22319074 - 10/01/15 12:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
There's a lot of refugees being raped in the German camps and have been several reports of refugees raping German nationals.
Is there any indication of what these refugees were wearing?

That's no longer admissible in court Enlil.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
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Registered: 12/07/13
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: That doesn't even make sense troll, him and Kerry have said they want up to 200,000, so yes, the people at the top DO want them...
Lol... I just pictured them bidding at a refugee auction! "I'll take 200,000," "I want 300,000!"
Lmao
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: BoldAsLove]
#22319239 - 10/01/15 01:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
BoldAsLove said:
Quote:
qman said:
Is this going to be a semantics debate? The people that have flooded Europe the past 15 years are mainly from Northern Africa, who gives a crap if they left for economic or political reasons, or even both? What difference does it make? They fled their homelands and invaded another country.
This is not semantics. Refugees and immigrants are not the same. Refugees are forced from their homes by violence and war. They are not leaving a country because they can't make a living, they are leaving because it is a struggle to stay alive.
What difference does it make? Well, first, motivation. These people who are leaving know the hell hole they left and will do anything to never return to it. Second, refugees come from all walks of life, doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. War affects everyone equally. Immigrants tend to be low skill and low education, because those with higher skills do okay enough to stay. Finally, number. Immigrants come over years and years and the number is huge in the end. Refugees come all at once, and while it is a lot to handle immediately, in the end, their numbers are relatively small.
Also, for some reason this isn't a popular justification, but compassion. Most people here can't even fathom what these refugees are going through. They aren't "invading." They are fleeing. They went through horrific conditions and I would hope most people are compassionate enough to recognize that. I can understand not being compassionate to immigrants, but the refugees deserve a human life, and we as humans should do what we can to help.
Quote:
"evidence that refugees (immigrants) create lasting negative effects"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/articles/2011/02/10/sarkozy-says-multiculturalism-a-failure/
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994
"State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron"
The Muslim population in Europe creates a massive disproportional amount of violent crime into the EU, this is a fact!! It doesn't matter what you want to call them- refugees or illegal immigrants. 
Multiculturalism refers to decades of immigrants moving into Europe, not a sudden influx of refugees lasting a few months.
Multiculturalism ALSO applies to the refugees today.
"Refugees deserve a human life"
I agree, that's why they need to return to their homelands in a few months when it becomes more stable. Europeans don't deserve to invaded by outsiders and then provide them with a life time of assistance.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: qman]
#22319426 - 10/01/15 02:29 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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And Syrians don't deserve to have their society razed to the ground because their leader isn't friendly enough to Western oil and gas interests.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: qman]
#22319559 - 10/01/15 02:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think your understanding of the word 'invaded' isn't quite accurate. Regardless, as Boldaslove pointed out, many refugees are highly educated, productive members of society, that contribute more than they take.
I love how right wingers were all about bringing "freedom" and the "Murican way" to the middle east, but when it comes to doing something aside from bombing them, we see far less altruism.
In fact, the middle east didnt want to be fucking invaded by the US. Thats the REAL definition of invasion. If we didn't run sround invading other countries we wouldn't havr this problem.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (10/01/15 02:58 PM)
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Idiot lets in more refugees [Re: Bigbadwooof]
#22319590 - 10/01/15 03:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I think your understanding of the word 'invaded' isn't quite accurate. Regardless, as Boldaslove pointed out, many refugees are highly educated, productive members of society, that contribute more than they take.
I love how right wingers were all about bringing "freedom" and the "Murican way" to the middle east, but when it comes to doing something aside from bombing them, we see far less altruism.
In fact, the middle east didnt want to be fucking invaded by the US. Thats the REAL definition of invasion. If we didn't run sround invading other countries we wouldn't havr this problem.
I was never for US involvement in the Middle East, so that generalization doesn't apply to me.
Also, the Middle East and other areas of the world are fucked up and the US isn't really responsible. Stop blaming the US for every wrong in the world, the people that live there are responsible.
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FryersQuest
Navigator



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Quote:
paperbackwriter said:
Quote:
BoldAsLove said: Refugees are being refused on the hypothetical grounds that they will cause harm, which is ignoring the very real harm of turning them away.
There's a lot of refugees being raped in the German camps and have been several reports of refugees raping German nationals. We can also look at the crime rates in Europe from muslim immigration and see parallels. I don't see how that's a hypothetical.
I don't want to turn them away but I don't want women I love and care about getting raped either.
Yeah it isn't hypothetical at all. The refugees are predominantly Muslim men. It is a fact that they treat women as subhuman. Liberals are so blinded by their need to help everyone that they can't differentiate who they should help and who they really shouldn't help.
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