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el gordo
not the youtube one


Registered: 09/05/20
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Phony Phone]
#27072381 - 12/04/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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this wavy caps looks lovely
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: el gordo]
#27072572 - 12/04/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Can someone explain to me how a pasteurized manure substrate differs from a non nutritious one such as coir that's been hydrated but not pasteurized? I know what pasteurization is generally speaking, but I'm interested in hearing a specific reason for why pans are grown with pasteurized manure and/or straw based substrates. I'm hoping for an answer that sounds something like "pasteurizing manure results in propagation of 'this' or 'that' specific bacteria throughout the entire substrate and this bacteria is very territorial and doesn't allow mold or bacterial spores to germinate in its pasteurized environment"
Reading about different types of pasteurization methods I haven't come across information about beneficial microbes being propagated I've only read about that this process kills most of the harmful microbes and thus prolonging the shelf life of foods. Also I'm curious about this because I'll be pasteurizing manure/straw based substrates in the coming days but I'd very much like to understand the reasoning behind the processes and methods I'm performing rather than just doing random stuff because I read somewhere or someone told me that I need to do this or that to have a chance at success.
So what do pasteurized subs do for Pans and what is preventing these subs from contaminating in open air?
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mateja] 1
#27072593 - 12/04/20 08:40 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Composted manures contain beneficial bacteria that play a role in primordia formation, and likely play a role in other stages of the organisms life cycle. These beneficial bacteria are not present in straw alone nor in coir. So as you stated above, pasteurization deals with the non-beneficial bacteria while promoting an ecological niche for the beneficial bacterial species like Bacillus megaterium, which has been shown to facilitate primordia formation in some agaricus strains.
I doubt that anyone has done the appropriate research to identify the bacterial species that interact with pans, they're obviously present nonetheless, otherwise you would see no noticeable difference in primordia formation or overall performance when comparing horse manure to straw and coir.
These useful bacteria protect the substrate from infection, they act as a sort of immune system for the pasteurized substrate. Some bacteria even affect harvest weight in commercial species of gourmet mushroom. Composting is necessary for this reason, it allows for the appropriate organisms to develop. Same kind of idea with compost made for the garden. Beneficial microbes form a symbiosis with fungal colonies and plant root zones.
According to Park and Agnihotri (1969), Bacillus megaterium stimulates primordia formation
Another species, Bacillus thermofibricolous, if introduced at spawning, inhibits the growth of competitor molds in rice bran/sawdust spawn prepared for shiitake cultivation according to Steineck (1973)
Bacillus subtilis QST713 was tested for impact on yield and efficacy against a Trichoderma aggressivum.
Sources:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/egymushroom.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/mushroom-culture-bacillus/amp/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330711315_Impact_of_Bacillus_subtilis_QST713_mushroom_grain_spawn_treatment_on_yield_and_green_mould_control
https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/218/2/271/530921
https://patents.google.com/patent/KR20040078027A/en
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (12/04/20 09:20 PM)
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27072653 - 12/04/20 09:25 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok, thanks for the clear (enough) answer on this topic for now  So basically it's confirmed that there is some kind of 'protector' microbe that's fending off mold and other evils keeping them from germinating. Is there an estimated time period for how long pasteurized manure stays contam resistent?
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mateja]
#27072667 - 12/04/20 09:37 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: Ok, thanks for the clear (enough) answer
There isn't a clear answer regarding the specific beneficial microbes, as far as I'm aware, for obvious reasons. Hopefully there will be researchers investigating those relationships in the future when laws change.
I'd say a couple of weeks would be a safe bet for pasteurized manure.
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Yeetusdeetus


Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 1,242
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27072680 - 12/04/20 09:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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You might find this article interesting. It’s mainly focused on in vitro propagation of mycorrhizal fungi but some of the concepts regarding microbial relations can be carried over
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2019.02420/full
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The Dalcassian
Dirty Druggie



Registered: 01/04/17
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
#27072723 - 12/04/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Mateah - its less of a protector, and more of a no room at the inn, situation.
Kinda like cleaning your counter with a disinfectant or a probiotic. A disinfectant cleans away everything meaning anything can grow. A probiotic covers your counter with harmless or useful bacteria to the point that theres no room for bad stuff to grow.
In this sense pasturising kills the nasties leaving the goodies to continue colonise the sub and hopefully leave no room for anything else. Hence why you leave them to sit for a few days after pasturisation.
This is my understanding, but I do know some of the guys have plenty of success without letting their pasturised sub sit for a few day too
-------------------- Here Lies This Individual 
Edited by The Dalcassian (12/04/20 11:27 PM)
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
The Dalcassian said: Mateah - its less of a protector, and more of a no room at the inn, situation.
Kinda like cleaning your counter with a disinfectant or a probiotic. A disinfectant cleans away everything meaning anything can grow. A probiotic covers your counter with harmless or useful bacteria to the point that theres no room for bad stuff to grow.
In this sense pasturising kills the nasties leaving the goodies to continue colonise the sub and hopefully leave no room for anything else. Hence why you leave them to sit for a few days after pasturisation.
This is my understanding, but I do know some of the guys have plenty of success without letting their pasturised sub sit for a few day too.
That's not accurate.
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The Dalcassian
Dirty Druggie



Registered: 01/04/17
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27072734 - 12/04/20 10:54 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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No, enlighten me. I understand what was posted prior, and I'm on board with what the beneficial bacteria are for. But i thought this is why things like milk and cheese etc got pasturised.
-------------------- Here Lies This Individual 
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The Dalcassian
Dirty Druggie



Registered: 01/04/17
Posts: 952
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NVM... I got it.
Thanks P9hu7
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Pasteurization doesn't kill all of the present microbes, this is where Pasteurization differs from sterilization.
So when you said less of a protector and more of process that basically creates an axenic vacuum is inaccurate. Bacillus are most likely to survive pasteurization, even though there are bacillus that are contaminants they're also the genus that are likely to form symbiosis....at least that's the case with other species of commercial varieties.
"When the temperature gets hot enough, the enzymes in the bacterium are denatured, meaning they change shape. This change renders them useless, and they're no longer able to do their work."
Source: google.
The remaining symbiotic bacteria bot only form beneficial partnerships with the mycelium, but they can act as a kind of immune system that staves of molds etc.
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The Dalcassian
Dirty Druggie



Registered: 01/04/17
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27072757 - 12/04/20 11:22 PM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah I didn't mean I to imply completely anexic. As that would imply all microbes I.e. sterilisation as you said.
I thought the case was that it killed off most contaminating (souring) microbes. Leaving many harmless or beneficial ones. Which in turn will then cultivate over the course of a couple of days thus taking up more space making it harder for competitors. Then you inoculate with spawn.
***edit*** in fact I never implied anexic vacuum
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Edited by The Dalcassian (12/04/20 11:29 PM)
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Phony Phone

Registered: 09/19/20
Posts: 612
Last seen: 6 days, 12 hours
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Ok so when the beneficial microbiome is established after pasteurizing, why does then casing/sub have a shelf life? Do the bacteria lose to competitor microorganisms again? Is there a chemical reaction taking place from the new established friendly bacteria making it unhospitable? And does this apply to spawned sub/casing or just in vitro in the pasteurizing container (Where anaerobic conditions are more prevalent)
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PsiloPsychIn
PsiloPsychIn



Registered: 06/17/14
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Phony Phone]
#27072884 - 12/05/20 03:09 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the knowledge bomb Sir!
Jake, I’m super excited about the possibility of a Komodo print. You seem to imply there are some challenges with getting it to fruit. What have you learned about how it may be different from cultivating other pans?
-------------------- What are they saying? Listen carefully, it might be something you need to hear...
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: PsiloPsychIn]
#27072895 - 12/05/20 03:17 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Second flush is tiny. It’s hard to tell just how small they are in the picture but I’d say they max out around an inch tall.
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coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: A.k.a]
#27072900 - 12/05/20 03:24 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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However, Asura's tek _sterilizes_ the manure sub in the PC. So does angams approach.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall]
#27072955 - 12/05/20 05:28 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Pretty sure they have grains in their sub.
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jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Stipe-n Cap] 1
#27073010 - 12/05/20 06:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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i know some of yall have seen these pics b4. im just getting exited for my jambos that are in the works right now. so i thought id just re post a few pics of the last run i did of them back in july as a preview while im waiting on this run to fruit. 😃
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: jcm4620]
#27073049 - 12/05/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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Those grows are awe-takeingly inspiring. I think it's important grows of this caliber get exposure so everyone new or old sees clearly what is possible and where the bar is at. Will your permission I'm saving this picture post for future distribution when im referencing
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Jakeoncid419
Follow me.....



Registered: 06/26/18
Posts: 4,390
Loc: Basel Switzerland
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mateja] 2
#27073151 - 12/05/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have a folder just for pics to show ppl of pans potential, enjoy
-------------------- Natural omt/detox online pant cult classes available last Saturday of every month go to buymeacoffee.com/jakeoncid to sign up (1 on 1 consultations also available JOC PAN TEK CORDYCEPS MILITARIS EXOTICS [
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