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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
#26518626 - 03/05/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: The thing is you can't just plug in numbers. I talk about this a lot in my write up. It's all about managing the conditions and learning how everything in your environment affects everything else.
Right, but you need to know which values represent your desired conditions. Without good values, you can't do that. I don't talk about 100% certain values, I'm talking about orientation about what is needed.
Quote:
You're going to want the RH as high as you can get it without flooding your trays. How does temp affect that? How does FAE affect that? How does the moisture already in your fresh air affect that?
Do you? According to jake you want to let it drop into the 80ies for evaporation to be good.
According to Mary and Stamets you never want to let it below 95%
I see your point and it makes perfectly sense. But the discrepancy between given values throughout the forum can not be ignored.
Also, does it really matter how FAE and Temp affect that? I mean, let's say I have high FAE and high temps. What will happen, is that my RH drops. Right? So what will I do? I will crank up the fogger to reach the desired RH again. If my FAE drops, my RH will increase, so I can crank it down to meet my desired value again or reduce RH. But to what level?
But in order to do the regulation, I need values which I can then try to achieve. Without some orientation this is not possible.
Edited by Prietenul (03/05/20 01:15 PM)
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shroompy
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Prietenul]
#26518638 - 03/05/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well.. As you see... TCs like Mary, Asura and Jake have very different ideas what a target value looks like... Even stonesun can do it without measuring anything.
If you take a look at JOCs Pano Tub system he doesn't even bother on measuring anything... It just alternates fogger and hot air...
I understand your question... The answer is as your summary already says: the range is big... Do your trials and find out what works on your environment.
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: shroompy]
#26518665 - 03/05/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroompy said: Well.. As you see... TCs like Mary, Asura and Jake have very different ideas what a target value looks like... Even stonesun can do it without measuring anything.
If you take a look at JOCs Pano Tub system he doesn't even bother on measuring anything... It just alternates fogger and hot air...
I understand your question... The answer is as your summary already says: the range is big... Do your trials and find out what works on your environment.
Again. You're right. And I know all that, because I have read ~1000 Posts in hundreds of threads during the last months myself.
I really don't want to step on your toes, but I don't thinks this question is as trivial as you seem to imply.
If the range is big and TCs have different opinions on which is best, then I want to hear those opinions. My question aims to get those respected growers on this thread to discuss different values and to tell us why they think one is better than the other.
Jake seems to think dropping RH into the 80ies is good. Asura seems to think keeping it as "high as possible" is the way to go. I would like to hear them express their view and discuss the pros and cons.
The FAQ has a different view again. Why is that? Maybe someone knows more. Is it obsolete info? Would be interesting to know.
Maybe someone has talked to Mary and knows why she advocates 97-99% or maybe she'll respond herself. 
That's what my question was for. 
Also, I agree, that we need to do trials in our own environment. But why wouldn't we want to first read from seasoned growers about the mistakes they made so we can avoid them? That's the purpose of this whole thread/forum, isn't it?
Edited by Prietenul (03/05/20 01:14 PM)
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Prietenul]
#26518714 - 03/05/20 01:32 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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You don’t need to hold a constant humidity you’re focusing too much on what your humidity meter is going to say But really it’s a relevant all you have to do is keep an eye on your casing and then once you have them in your fruits your fruits should always looks slightly moist once they get dry they will begin to crack which isn’t bad necessarily but you don’t want it to happen until the very end if you want a full canopy. Your case should never look dry you always want it looking rather saturated. The humidity in the tent only does those two things rehydrate your casing and keeps your fruits from getting too dry but they are fine at handling short bursts of dry air as mine are subjected to it every 10 minutes.
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518721 - 03/05/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is from another thread, I saw it and it reminded me of some of the pictures here.
Any chance it’s pan or some other species, or just a weird contam.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26518482#26518482
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LAGM2020     
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518733 - 03/05/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said: You don’t need to hold a constant humidity you’re focusing too much on what your humidity meter is going to say But really it’s a relevant all you have to do is keep an eye on your casing and then once you have them in your fruits your fruits should always looks slightly moist once they get dry they will begin to crack which isn’t bad necessarily but you don’t want it to happen until the very end if you want a full canopy. Your case should never look dry you always want it looking rather saturated. The humidity in the tent only does those two things rehydrate your casing and keeps your fruits from getting too dry but they are fine at handling short bursts of dry air as mine are subjected to it every 10 minutes.
That's good info. But then, why do we need a separate pans forum? Isn't that exactly what you would look for with cased cubes?
I have an Inkbird controller that has to be set to some values. It does not have the setting "wet enough" 
Fun aside, I have a hard time spotting too wet or too dry casing (as even Asura said some posts before). Especially as a beginner one can not rely on gut feeling when judging the casing. After I have pins, that's no problem because I can look at them and see if they crack. But judging the casing is a different story.
E.g. my casing is very wet. I have my controller set according to Marys TEK (97-98%). Now I read some threads where people advocate the 80-95% Range. How am I supposed to decide if my controller settings are wrong, or if I just don't have enough FAE?
If you tell me, the controller setting (97-98) is too high, then I know that I need to dial it down. If you tell me, the setting is just right, I know that I have to increase my FAE. Is this understandable?
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Prietenul]
#26518742 - 03/05/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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No cubes are grown very differently you do not need to cycle the humidity and they do not require anywhere near the same amount of evaporation for a full pen set the fruits of cubes are all so much more resistant to longer exposure to lower humidity that’s why fogger systems are not really required to grow them. Putting cubes in the jar that will work but the results are not as good as if I just dropped the tray in a traditional mono
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Edited by Jakeoncid419 (03/05/20 01:59 PM)
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518744 - 03/05/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I didn’t say humidity doesn’t matter I just said there is not a specific humidity you need to hold it at all times
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518746 - 03/05/20 01:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I’ve never ran an ink bird I built the fog system from a 12 head from house of Hydro and I control it via the fan speed and my cycle repeat timers
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518751 - 03/05/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said: No cubes are grown very differently you do not need to cycle the humidity
According to Mary and Asuras TEK you don't need to cycle the humidity for pans.
Quote:
and they do not require anywhere near the same amount of evaporation for a full pan set the fruits of cubes are all so much more resistant to longer exposure to lower humidity that’s why fogger systems are not really required to grow them. Putting cubes in the jar that will work but the results are not as good as if I just dropped the tray in a traditional mono
(Especially as a beginner) I can not see the amount of evaporation that's happening. I can just see the settings on my temp/RH controllers and from there I can regulate FAE. That's why in the growth parameters they write x-y% RH and not "keep casing moist".
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Prietenul]
#26518756 - 03/05/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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No you do not need to cycle humidity you just need to achieve a high level of evaporation a lot of that will come back to genetics while some genetics will perform well With less evaporation others may not do very well however ramp up that evaporation and the others will still perform well. So I just run everything at maximum evaporation
If you have another method that maximizes evaporation better by all means. But it definitely does not seem necessary to hold a constant rh as my tents are all over the place
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Edited by Jakeoncid419 (03/05/20 02:00 PM)
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518765 - 03/05/20 02:06 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said: No you do not need to cycle humidity you just need to achieve a high level of evaporation a lot of that will come back to genetics while some genetics will perform well With less evaporation others may not do very well however ramp up that evaporation and the others will still perform well. So I just run everything at maximum evaporation
If you have another method that maximizes evaporation better by all means. But it definitely does not seem necessary to hold a constant rh as my tents are all over the place
We come to the point I was aiming at. 
So you say in order to maximize evaporation (which we all want and need) it's best to cycle the humidity. Cycling humidity means letting it drop to the 80ies, right?
I don't want to be that smartass but in Asuras TEK he states that evaporation can even occur at 99% RH (according to RR) and that you want "slow evaporation" which means, not dorpping the RH too low (like 80ies).
Do you see where my confusion comes from?
How long do you keep it in the 80ies range? How long in the high 90ies?
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Asura
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26518779 - 03/05/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Jake grows differently than me. I have a diffent setup than mary.
Maybe Jake does need to let RH drop to the 80s to get the proper conditions? I have constant FAE and sometimes that's mixed with fog. My fresh air is heated.
We are managing our environment in different ways.
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
#26518796 - 03/05/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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it's a classic how much fanning and misting does my mono need scenario, it's not a sgfc it's a different set up. evaporation occurs at 99% rh and at 20% the key will be fae, remember why we need humidity , it's not because it's a punning trigger it's because mushrooms lack the skin me and you have so they dry out.
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: cronicr]
#26518805 - 03/05/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Jake grows differently than me. I have a diffent setup than mary.
Maybe Jake does need to let RH drop to the 80s to get the proper conditions? I have constant FAE and sometimes that's mixed with fog. My fresh air is heated.
We are managing our environment in different ways.
I don't know what's wrong with me today. Maybe I have a cranky day but what I read from your post is:
One can not specify values of RH because each setup is too unique. So the information given by the FAQs and "Growth Parameters" lists is useless.
In fact even the separation of cubes/pans parameters is useless because they both like it warm and wet with much FAE, just the pans like it a little warmer and wetter.
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: cronicr]
#26518814 - 03/05/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: it's a classic how much fanning and misting does my mono need scenario, it's not a sgfc it's a different set up. evaporation occurs at 99% rh and at 20% the key will be fae, remember why we need humidity , it's not because it's a punning trigger it's because mushrooms lack the skin me and you have so they dry out.
Sorry, cronicr, I don't understand what you mean.
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Asura
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: cronicr]
#26518824 - 03/05/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes exactly. How much fanning and misting is necessary?
Well...how ever much is needed 
I know you want the casing wet at all times. If your tray isn't flooded and your casing isn't drying out, you're probably good and numbers on a controller probably don't ultimately matter bc your surface RH will be damn near 100% regardless.
@prie I've presented what I know so far. I don't know everything. My write up is essentially what I think pans like and how I specifically try to provide those needs. I give some examples of alternative setups. But it's never been a tek. I say that first thing. I have always advocated learning about the fruiting conditions...not just following a step by step.
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Prietenul]
#26518835 - 03/05/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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I don't understand where your problem is.. You wanted to hear from the best... Now you don't want to believe..
There is something they all did agree upon: - absolute values do not work. - the growth parameters will just be approx.
This is no absolute science. If I understand right from the thousands of posts I've read and my own experience through the years is that the best cultivators are the ones that did a great bunch of trial and error and the description of their teks help you find your best setting.
I understand you have a question.. I understand you have an inkbird. I understand you can't put: wet enough and need to put in a value... You can also put a Humidity difference and a dehumidifier difference on an inkbird. All that and proper temperature management can be enough to make great grows.
The differentiation between cubes and pans or any mushrooms for that matter is in fact very useful and depending on how your local climate is, might make it easier or very difficult to build a setting in which the preferred species fruits.
But what do I know... I only have around 100 posts in the forum
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
#26518840 - 03/05/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Yes exactly. How much fanning and misting is necessary?
Well...how ever much is needed 
I know you want the casing wet at all times. If your tray isn't flooded and your casing isn't drying out, you're probably good and numbers on a controller probably don't ultimately matter bc your surface RH will be damn near 100% regardless.
@prie I've presented what I know so far. I don't know everything. My write up is essentially what I think pans like and how I specifically try to provide those needs. I give some examples of alternative setups. But it's never been a tek. I say that first thing. I have always advocated learning about the fruiting conditions...not just following a step by step.
Fair point. I really don't want to criticize you or your writeup. And I'm very grateful for your and jakes and maries and... work, you all earned our respect.
I just wanted to clear up some confusion and got frustrated by the organization of information in this forum.
To me it feels like you have a huge soup of obsolete and current knowledge, intermixed with dead links and different opinions on different things, scattered between thousands of posts (some from 2001)...
Still it would be interesting if it makes a difference if you drop your RH to 80ies or if you keep it high at 90ies. A comparison in yield / speed would be interesting to see.
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Prietenul
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: shroompy]
#26518853 - 03/05/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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shroompy said: I don't understand where your problem is.. You wanted to hear from the best... Now you don't want to believe..
No problem, shroompy, really. I believe it all. I wanted to hear arguments "from the best" why they choose x vs y, that's right.
No need to defend their honor. They can do that themselves if they feel attacked. Don't try to earn "likes" from a community like that. It's not nice.
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There is something they all did agree upon: - absolute values do not work. - the growth parameters will just be approx.
Yeah, that's obvious. That's why I wanted to get the approximated values.
Quote:
This is no absolute science. If I understand right from the thousands of posts I've read and my own experience through the years is that the best cultivators are the ones that did a great bunch of trial and error and the description of their teks help you find your best setting.
Of course, nobody doubts that. I did not say I want no trial and error. I asked for clarification. That's different.
Quote:
I understand you have a question.. I understand you have an inkbird. I understand you can't put: wet enough and need to put in a value... You can also put a Humidity difference and a dehumidifier difference on an inkbird. All that and proper temperature management can be enough to make great grows.
Ok, that's good.
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The differentiation between cubes and pans or any mushrooms for that matter is in fact very useful and depending on how your local climate is, might make it easier or very difficult to build a setting in which the preferred species fruits.
The differentiation ... makes it easier or difficult to build a setting... ? I don't get your point here.
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But what do I know... I only have around 100 posts in the forum
Why do you mention that? I also don't have thousands of posts. What does it matter here?
Edited by Prietenul (03/05/20 03:05 PM)
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