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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800114 - 02/08/19 07:54 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
I've noticed that pan cultivators use a relatively shallow substrate.  1.5-2.0 inches seems to be the norm.

Can someone explain why the substrate depth is so much shallower than cubes?

thx!



Pans are prone to going anaerobic. A thin substrate reduces the amount of sub which often would die from oxygen deprivation and contaminate


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OfflineRad Aghast
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #25800127 - 02/08/19 08:01 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Thx. For clarity...when you say prone to going anaerobic... do you mean that the sub is prone to contamination from anaerobic bacteria?

thx again.


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Offlinetheoldclarysage
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800131 - 02/08/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

How much are y'all paying for these bags of manure. I have more manure than I know what to do with I'd send it out if it was worth it.


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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800136 - 02/08/19 08:05 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Likely any contaminant that thrives in anaerobic conditions, or that could gain a foothold due to weakened immunity from anaerobic bacterial infection  (i.e. trich or pin mold)


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800138 - 02/08/19 08:06 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
Thx. For clarity...when you say prone to going anaerobic... do you mean that the sub is prone to contamination from anaerobic bacteria?

thx again.



no anaerobic
adj
relating to, involving or requiring an absence of free oxygen

just a fancy way of saying they easily become oxygen deprived.


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Invisiblenube424
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #25800157 - 02/08/19 08:21 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

It means pan mycelium needs more oxygen. So if it's thicker, the air can't penetrate deep enough down and the mycelium dies and let's contaminants take over


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OfflineRad Aghast
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #25800162 - 02/08/19 08:22 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

hmmm - yeah I know what anaerobic means. But what I'm hearing is that its not the absence of oxygen that is the issue. Rather its that anaerobic conditions favor the growth of contaminants that can out-compete the mycelium.

Mycelium, after all, don't seem to have a problem with anaerobic conditions when kept sterile. That's how we colonize spawn, nearly anaerobically. For example, blue helix inoculates big sterile substrate bags that look at least 5 inches in diameter but its not a problem. Its nearly anaerobic - but sterile.

sound right?


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Invisiblenube424
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800169 - 02/08/19 08:26 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Ur right. That doesn't make sense. I think it has more to do with pan mycelium being weak and it can't take the weight of a heavy thick substrate. It just compacts and dies. Then when the mycelium is dead, other things have a chance to grow


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800172 - 02/08/19 08:27 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
hmmm - yeah I know what anaerobic means. But what I'm hearing is that its not the absence of oxygen that is the issue. Rather its that anaerobic conditions favor the growth of contaminants that can out-compete the mycelium.

Mycelium, after all, don't seem to have a problem with anaerobic conditions when kept sterile. That's how we colonize spawn, nearly anaerobically. For example, blue helix inoculates big sterile spawn bags that look at least 5 inches in diameter but its not a problem. Its nearly anaerobic - but sterile.

sound right?



I’m not sure I think I it is a direct affect of low oxygen that will prevent pins. Further demonstrated by its much higher requirement of fresh air. Most of my failures didn’t contaminate but instead just refused to pin

I have seen successful deep bag grows tho although I’d bet that if that bag were laid out in a tray you would have an increased yield.


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[


Edited by Jakeoncid419 (02/08/19 08:29 PM)


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OfflineRad Aghast
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #25800196 - 02/08/19 08:38 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

The reason I ask is because I'm designing a new grow setup and I'm doing some research on the grow conditions for pans. Trying to separate the facts from the anecdotes.

Anyway, there are a lot of references to shallow substrate depths but its not really making sense to me. One of the benefits of a thicker sub is that it holds more water and therefore requires less water input to maintain humidity at the air/sub interface.

Perhaps pans just don't have the immunity that cubes do - and can't tolerate the attack from bacteria.

Has anyone tried growing pans in a deeper sub?


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800225 - 02/08/19 08:50 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
The reason I ask is because I'm designing a new grow setup and I'm doing some research on the grow conditions for pans. Trying to separate the facts from the anecdotes.

Anyway, there are a lot of references to shallow substrate depths but its not really making sense to me. One of the benefits of a thicker sub is that it holds more water and therefore requires less water input to maintain humidity at the air/sub interface.

Perhaps pans just don't have the immunity that cubes do - and can't tolerate the attack from bacteria.

Has anyone tried growing pans in a deeper sub?



I’ve tried in 4 inch subs I got overlay although I don’t think what was why. As for them holding more moisture, with the amount of evaporation you want to take place on the surface even a deeper sub would dry out on top if not some how rehydrated. This has just been my experience. I’ve been focusing on high o2 levels and maximizing my evaporation and the better I do on either the better my results. I’m sure it can be done other ways I’ve heRd talk of ppl using regular sdfc’s but never seen a canopy in one. Best grows I see are in trays due to the high air flow if a Martha. That’s y I’ve modded the mono to more so resemble β€œmartha tubs” lol


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800245 - 02/08/19 08:57 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
The reason I ask is because I'm designing a new grow setup and I'm doing some research on the grow conditions for pans. Trying to separate the facts from the anecdotes.

Anyway, there are a lot of references to shallow substrate depths but its not really making sense to me. One of the benefits of a thicker sub is that it holds more water and therefore requires less water input to maintain humidity at the air/sub interface.

Perhaps pans just don't have the immunity that cubes do - and can't tolerate the attack from bacteria.

Has anyone tried growing pans in a deeper sub?




I've tried in shoeboxes and 12 quart dub-tubs (following stonesun's grow) with deeper subs. I got fruits, but nothing to write home about.

The things I think that are important for pans are:

1. Sub-depth about 1.75-2 inches. Casing layer should be about 1/4 inch and perfectly level.
2. Casing layer should be 7.5-8 pH and not be something that myc will readily colonize (i.e. peat and verm)
3. Fruiting conditions are high temps (75-80F), high humidity, constant FAE and rapid evaporation of moisture
from the casing layer.

That's how I do it and I've had some decent success.

Edit: You don't want to retain moisture in your sub like you do for cubes. You want evaporation to be constant
and you will have to figure out a method for re-introducing water during your grow.


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OfflineRad Aghast
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #25800292 - 02/08/19 09:28 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Asura said:


I've tried in shoeboxes and 12 quart dub-tubs (following stonesun's grow) with deeper subs. I got fruits, but nothing to write home about.

The things I think that are important for pans are:

1. Sub-depth about 1.75-2 inches. Casing layer should be about 1/4 inch and perfectly level.
2. Casing layer should be 7.5-8 pH and not be something that myc will readily colonize (i.e. peat and verm)
3. Fruiting conditions are high temps (75-80F), high humidity, constant FAE and rapid evaporation of moisture
from the casing layer.

That's how I do it and I've had some decent success.

Edit: You don't want to retain moisture in your sub like you do for cubes. You want evaporation to be constant
and you will have to figure out a method for re-introducing water during your grow.





I'm inspired by the Martha grows out there, but really wanting to optimize the mono design for pan growth, much like Jake.

Re: sub depth - seems like most likely the main factor in the shallow depth is efficiency. Minimizing sub depth means we can have a larger fruiting area for a given quantity of sub. In other words, the optimal sub depth is the thinnest one that gives acceptable results. :grin:

As for the 3 design criteria you listed. All are simple except #3...which is actually 4 separate criteria. Question - is it really important to maintain high RH in the chamber? or is it really about maintaining high evap in the microclimate where pinning occurs? at the interface? and therefore high RH in at the interface as well? Thats why syringe watering is viable - although a pain in the ass?

sorry for the barrage of questions - but i'm learning a ton here.


Edited by Rad Aghast (02/08/19 09:36 PM)


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OfflineJakeoncid419
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800327 - 02/08/19 09:49 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rad Aghast said:
Quote:

Asura said:


I've tried in shoeboxes and 12 quart dub-tubs (following stonesun's grow) with deeper subs. I got fruits, but nothing to write home about.

The things I think that are important for pans are:

1. Sub-depth about 1.75-2 inches. Casing layer should be about 1/4 inch and perfectly level.
2. Casing layer should be 7.5-8 pH and not be something that myc will readily colonize (i.e. peat and verm)
3. Fruiting conditions are high temps (75-80F), high humidity, constant FAE and rapid evaporation of moisture
from the casing layer.

That's how I do it and I've had some decent success.

Edit: You don't want to retain moisture in your sub like you do for cubes. You want evaporation to be constant
and you will have to figure out a method for re-introducing water during your grow.





I'm inspired by the Martha grows out there, but really wanting to optimize the mono design for pan growth, much like Jake.

Re: sub depth - seems like most likely the main factor in the shallow depth is efficiency. Minimizing sub depth means we can have a larger fruiting area for a given quantity of sub. In other words, the optimal sub depth is the thinnest one that gives acceptable results. :grin:

As for the 3 design criteria you listed. All are simple except #3...which is actually 4 separate criteria. Question - is it really important to maintain high RH in the chamber? or is it really about maintaining high evap in the microclimate where pinning occurs? at the interface? and therefore high RH in at the interface as well? Thats why syringe watering is viable - although a pain in the ass?

sorry for the barrage of questions - but i'm learning a ton here.




The way I do it is I try and keep my evaporation high for as long as possible then have my humidifier kick on and humidifier as quickly as possible I also pre-hydrate much of my fresh air as to not dry out the fruits too much Ideally I suppose you would have a vain like a system that would just hydrate the casing layer.  The first 4 to 5 days I put a pan into fruiting conditions I maintain 99 humidity then drop to 88 to induce pinning. Then like I said I try and maintain 88 with intermittent periods of 99rh.
If you don’t mind hand watering constantly I suppose high humidity in the chamber is not required but if you’re just a little late on it you will have dead  Fruits. I was continually told that my modifications were unnecessary and it can be achieved with a traditional mono and while I don’t doubt this I doubt 3 full canopy flushes  can be achieved this way and I have never personally seen a full Canopy of pans in a un-modded mono. I started with regular monos and the more I modded them the better results I had so I would say yes from my experience it is best to have some type of moisture replacement system


Edited by Jakeoncid419 (02/09/19 06:28 AM)


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25800338 - 02/08/19 09:54 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

I can only speculate based on my experience. I would think without the high RH, the rate of evaporation would be
too fast and things would dry out fairly quickly. At least in my setup. I have fresh air being constantly piped in
through a 4" vinyl duct hose.

I think if I was going to a grow without a Martha, I would use a regular SGFC filled with about 4" of perlite.
I would bury my tray(s) up to the edge in the perlite. I would put the SGFC in a smallish room where I could
maintain constant temps with a space heater. I would make sure the perlite stays wet and water the casing layer
with a syringe if needed.


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InvisibleCaps McGee
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #25800822 - 02/09/19 06:53 AM (4 years, 11 months ago)

:takingnotes:
Good stuff guys... the Aussie seems to be doing great on agar... time to widen my portfolio to other active species


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Caps McGee]
    #25800826 - 02/09/19 06:56 AM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Yea, the aussies I got from asura are looking great on agar too! 1 transfer and they're looking perfect. Much nicer looking than the bisporus, that shit looks like mold at all stages lol


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InvisibleJ. Jack Flash
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Jakeoncid419]
    #25800878 - 02/09/19 07:33 AM (4 years, 11 months ago)

man step away for a little bit... dying to comment on recent events, but nope. let sleeping dogs lie.

gents, care to share some fotos of them agar plates?

Quote:

Asura said:
You don't want to retain moisture in your sub like you do for cubes. You want evaporation to be constant
and you will have to figure out a method for re-introducing water during your grow.





this has me wondering. what about something akin to a self watering flower pot? i.e. waster reservoir with polymer wick material embedded in the sub. be easy to make, think it would work?



Quote:

Jakeoncid419 said:
OK so I remodeled my set up again today I really think this is it this feels perfect it was OK before but the pump was so loud but this is nice and quiet





so jake, when are you going to apply for a job at nasa? we'll need shit like this for food when we land on mars. nice work.


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OfflineRad Aghast
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: J. Jack Flash]
    #25800995 - 02/09/19 08:44 AM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:



this has me wondering. what about something akin to a self watering flower pot? i.e. waster reservoir with polymer wick material embedded in the sub. be easy to make, think it would work?





this is the general direction I was wondering about as well...

What I'm hearing is that evaporation at the interface (forming an RH microclimate) is super important - perhaps the most important factor. Marthas and mod'd monos both compensate for limited water in the sub by controlling the macro-climate. Its interesting that by increasing the RH in the macroclimate that we are actually decreasing evaporation rates at the interface where pinning occurs. But we're forced to do it because we can't (don't) supplement water to the sub.

Its also interesting that as the sub loses its moisture that temperature becomes increasingly important to control. With abundant sub moisture the microclimate is relatively temperature stable, when the water is gone the microclimate temperature is less stable.

Pan cyan is globally distributed across 6 continents! This helps explain all the anecdotal reports of people cultivating pans at high temps, cooler temps, marthas, shoeboxes, monos, and pretty much everything in between. They're cultivated in/on multiple substrates and from various nutrient sources. Its not a feeble or intolerant species! But the fruiting cycle is short, happening in just a few days, from pins to sporulation - and thats its niche. It fills a temporal niche as well as a spatial niche. Pan cyan is a hustler - he knows he only has a couple days to work his magic. :grin:


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OfflineTweeq
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Rad Aghast]
    #25801587 - 02/09/19 12:36 PM (4 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:


Pan cyan is a hustler





That would be a cool t-shirt


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