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Adden

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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: space_shrooms]
#25429931 - 09/02/18 05:03 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Liquid inoculation for p cubensis usually only takes a week for colonization and condensation. If you've got clean media, there's no reason a jar or bag should take over a week unless something is wrong (grain prep, bacteria, etc). From LI/LC to fruits is only 2.5 weeks on BRF-LI. Active pan media is as aggressive if not more, and they flush longer.
If you ever want to pull super fast genes, you can transfer 2cm away from leading growth (never take from the edge), but there are invisible filamentous mycelial strands that will make it look like you're transferring plain agar. I noticed it's harder to get consistent fruits but it's not always a sacrifice if you label your work and keep backups. I had a culture that did BRF jars in 4 days. I wish I had kept at it.
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mullugh
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: space_shrooms]
#25430210 - 09/02/18 08:29 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
aicaca said: Even with straight grain they are quicker than cubes ime. But there probably are other variables at play. LC is insanely fast though. I was a bit heavy with my pours the other day and used more than usual - probably used too much because the grains appeared wet and needed considerable shaking and jiggling around to spread the LC out and prevent it pooling on the bottom of the jar. Anyway they look alright now. There was visible growth all through it within 24hrs. I expect at this rate they may be fully colonized within 5 days, unless there there is too much moisture in there of course - might have screwed it up 
Thank you. I'm prepping several batches of liquid culture right now so hopefully they will speed it all up. I got a bit put off LC after my last batch went bad and I ducked up a huge amount of grain. I'll need to be extra clean.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Adden] 2
#25431415 - 09/02/18 07:29 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Adden said:I had a culture that did BRF jars in 4 days. I wish I had kept at it.
I routinely see full 10-pound bags of the substrate using the formula I listed in this thread fully colonize within 3 to 5 days, particularly if the water content is right and the substrate is fluffy enough (I'd add wood wool or, better yet, cut up straw if in doubt). And you want that speed to keep the mycelium running if you want those big flushes. If you wait too long (say a couple weeks) to open the bags and lay your trays, some epigenetic switch or something in the mycelium may have already changed and it will stall before it even colonizes the casing, which kills the yield. Always try to keep that mycelium running right before your fruit out!
And since everyone likes pictures (or I do) here is an example of what I'm talking about. Below is a pan cambos (very similar to cyans but larger cap) bag only 48 hours after I inoculated it with a vigorous liquid culture, and before you cry "contamination!" I've added a picture of that bag's first flush.

Edited by Blue Helix (09/02/18 07:41 PM)
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mullugh
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#25432276 - 09/03/18 06:23 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Adden said:I had a culture that did BRF jars in 4 days. I wish I had kept at it.
I routinely see full 10-pound bags of the substrate using the formula I listed in this thread fully colonize within 3 to 5 days, particularly if the water content is right and the substrate is fluffy enough (I'd add wood wool or, better yet, cut up straw if in doubt). And you want that speed to keep the mycelium running if you want those big flushes. If you wait too long (say a couple weeks) to open the bags and lay your trays, some epigenetic switch or something in the mycelium may have already changed and it will stall before it even colonizes the casing, which kills the yield. Always try to keep that mycelium running right before your fruit out!
And since everyone likes pictures (or I do) here is an example of what I'm talking about. Below is a pan cambos (very similar to cyans but larger cap) bag only 48 hours after I inoculated it with a vigorous liquid culture, and before you cry "contamination!" I've added a picture of that bag's first flush.
 
I love it....a lot of trips right there. Once I get a liquid culture, I'll consider doing these bags...you've clearly done a lot of trial and error to get to that level of effectiveness.
Hurry up LC!
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mullugh
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mullugh]
#25432869 - 09/03/18 12:06 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just had to throw away shoebox number two out of the three I made. Trich.
Last one standing is looking promising so far being only a few days old. Starting to run. I'm praying it survives...not sure why the other two got sick as all my PE boxes are fine (got four and one tamp box).
Please send me your good vibes...
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Asura
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mullugh]
#25433028 - 09/03/18 01:22 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mullugh said: Just had to throw away shoebox number two out of the three I made. Trich.
Last one standing is looking promising so far being only a few days old. Starting to run. I'm praying it survives...not sure why the other two got sick as all my PE boxes are fine (got four and one tamp box).
Please send me your good vibes...
How are you prepping your sub?
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Blue Helix
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura] 2
#25433249 - 09/03/18 03:06 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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How do you all prep for the next flush? What I do is pour enough water in the tray until the top is submerged, wait a few minutes (or longer), and then pour the liquid off so the tray isn't floating. In my experience with pan cyans, they NEED this kind of moisture after each flush but especially after the first. Within 24 hours of the dunk you should have clearly visible pins all over the tray (yes, I said 24 HOURS), and often the second flush is larger than the first. There are a couple reasons for that: by then the mycelium is all in fruiting mode rather than transitioning. Also, the dunk synchronizes the trays. Last, the pins will generally be developing in a wetter casing (and can without worry of contamination since the mycelium more developed then) which gives them a boost. As I mentioned before, the second flush is often the biggest.
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space_shrooms

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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: V.L]
#25433282 - 09/03/18 03:30 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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I do exactly that. Pretty sure I learnt that from your notes back in the archives somewhere
If they haven’t pinned within 24hrs after the soak I mist, but in my limited experience they pin almost immediately too, like there is hardly a pause between flushes.
I do not have a setup like yours BH, so am misting mine twice a day when there are no pins.
Got a couple of trays going (mini seedling greenhouse setup). I cased then about three days ago. Have not been home for 36hrs. Made sure the casing was nice and wet when I left. Mycelium was already popping through 24hrs after casing. Hoping to see some pins when i’m home later.
The variety i’m growing is the Australian RDU. They grow super skinny and not like your fat pans. I wonder if it’s my conditions or if it’s the genetics. Although I note I sent V.L. a print and he got the exact same results. Quote:
V.L said: Pan cyan "Australia" redspore

I’m going to increase FAE this grow and see if it makes much difference to their size. I got a few short fat ones last grow but generally they were tall and very thin - dropped spores but fiddly to collect.
I also have been lucky enough to get my hands on Jamaican, Goliath, tropicalis and hawaiian prints. I’m going to start them all together this weekend and grow them side by side and see how it goes 
Edit: just found this old post from Workman - https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Growlog&Number=4263449&Searchpage=4&Main=4261697&Words=&topic=&Search=true#Post4263449
Quote:
Workman said: Images of picked cultivated mushrooms on 1/2 inch grid paper. The grid makes it easy to compare the relative sizes of the various specimens. The variation in size is pretty dramatic but equally dramatic is the variation in growth. Some Panaeolus just don't do very well under cultivation while others thrive. Proper strain selection is critical for cultivation success.

Cool pic. My understanding is that the Goliath variety stems from the Thai? Is that right?
Edited by space_shrooms (09/03/18 04:09 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mullugh]
#25433300 - 09/03/18 03:45 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mullugh said: Just had to throw away shoebox number two out of the three I made. Trich.
Last one standing is looking promising so far being only a few days old. Starting to run. I'm praying it survives...not sure why the other two got sick as all my PE boxes are fine (got four and one tamp box).
Please send me your good vibes...
Sorry, you are seeing mold waste your time. I'd like to help, but the information you gave here is just not enough for me to do that, but here are some more questions that might give me some idea: how are you prepping the substrate? What is in it? How is what was in it being stored? How much do your prep at once? How are you inoculating it? With that info, I might be able to give you some feedback as to what is going on.
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Asura
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Blue Helix]
#25433358 - 09/03/18 04:10 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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BH, what is your current LC recipe. I'm using plain dextrose right now and I don't think the Aussie's like it very much. I tried your dextrose/LME recipe for pan jams and it seemed a little off. Like the LME wouldn't even go into suspension. But it worked great.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: space_shrooms] 1
#25433367 - 09/03/18 04:15 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
aicaca said: I do exactly that. Pretty sure I learnt that from your notes back in the archives somewhere
If they haven’t pinned within 24hrs after the soak I mist, but in my limited experience they pin almost immediately too, like there is hardly a pause between flushes.
I do not have a setup like yours BH, so am misting mine twice a day when there are no pins.
Got a couple of trays going (mini seedling greenhouse setup). I cased then about three days ago. Have not been home for 36hrs. Made sure the casing was nice and wet when I left. Mycelium was already popping through 24hrs after casing. Hoping to see some pins when i’m home later.
The variety i’m growing is the Australian RDU. They grow super skinny and not like your fat pans. I wonder if it’s my conditions or if it’s the genetics. Although I note I sent V.L. a print and he got the exact same results. Quote:
V.L said: Pan cyan "Australia" redspore

I’m going to increase FAE this grow and see if it makes much difference to their size. I got a few short fat ones last grow but generally they were tall and very thin - dropped spores but fiddly to collect.
I also have been lucky enough to get my hands on Jamaican, Goliath, tropicalis and hawaiian prints. I’m going to start them all together this weekend and grow them side by side and see how it goes 
In my experience there is a large genetic component to how thin the mushroom is, but there is an equal component of how much FAE they receive. I've had very thin tall ones at times too. Here's an example:

And really that's pretty common. The fat ones you saw were probably either my Goliath or Cambos, which just tend to be fatter. If you increase FAE or decrease the sides of your tray (so the casing it almost flush with the sides), you'll get fatter ones, but don't expect them to be as fat as those cambos were for me:
 
That's more genetics I think. While we are at it, here is the exact same cambos in the pictures above (same flush even):

Notice anything? They are a lot taller, huh. You know why? It's because they are in that vase and that tiny difference in FAE and CO2 drew them longer. Just illustrating my point.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura] 1
#25433460 - 09/03/18 04:51 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: BH, what is your current LC recipe. I'm using plain dextrose right now and I don't think the Aussie's like it very much. I tried your dextrose/LME recipe for pan jams and it seemed a little off. Like the LME wouldn't even go into suspension. But it worked great.
I've used two different ones, both about 4% sugar (per weight). One was like 15g dextrose with 15g light dry malt--something close to an even tablespoon--extract (the lighter the better) to a quart jar 3/4th full (about 750ml). The other I used was 30g light dry malt to the same water. I've used higher and lower sugar content too, and I'd say 4% is about as high as you want to go (but going lower to even 2% is fine). To be honest, I haven't noticed a huge amount of difference among all those. Even the lower sugar content was fine. They always grow incredibly fast if the mycelium is healthy and has been running well. I have no doubt that dextrose along works great too, and it might even be preferable due to the higher visibility it provides.
One thing a lot of people don't do that I recommend is storing your LC start in vacutainers. They just rock, and they make keeping the LC pure really easy. You can pick up a 100 of 10ml red-capped glass or plastic ones on eBay for about $20 ($10 more for the glass), but I've seen them in expired tube sales for like $15 per 100. Remember you want the red-capped ones like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BD-367820-Vacutainer-Serum-Tubes-Silicone-Coated-10ml-16x100mm-100-tubes/253848221256?hash=item3b1a887648:g:eGgAAOSwKLVbXFSK
Those are the BD 367820 red-stopper plastic ones (sterile of course), but the best ones are the BD 366430 red-top glass ones since you can resterilize them.
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mary fairchild
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Blue Helix]
#25434029 - 09/03/18 09:18 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hi BH,
Question, how long do you think you can store the LC starters?
Also when you are making your LC's, do you filter the malt extract? For me at 4% LME, a lot of it doesn't go in to solution.
I'll be inoculating a Pan cy Alabama LC into two spawn bags tomorrow:

I'm thinking of skipping the grain altogether in the substrate recipe (just hpoo, straw & verm) to see what happens.
Thanks for re-energizing this Pan thread with your input and thoughts!
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Poppy B
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mary fairchild]
#25434098 - 09/03/18 10:13 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Newbie cultivator question. Must the pan cyan spores, whether in a dry spore print form or in a syringe be germinated using agar method? I am doing my due diligence reading here on the boards, but mostly what I have studied on is basic Cubensis growing. My favorite wild foraged species has always been Pan Cyans, even long before I knew the scientific name for them. The micro scale cultivation seems more attractive to me than ever, since climbing over barbed wire or scurrying underneath electric fencing gets increasingly difficult each year lol. Not to mention my moral dilemma with tresspassing. So if any of the experts have quick links to streamlined tutorials I would surely appreciate it.
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RomeoPapa
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Poppy B]
#25434141 - 09/03/18 10:38 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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You just found the link to get you growing your own pans! Tons of great info here.
Try not to get shot jumping fences.
-------------------- It's better to have it and not need it Than it is to need it and not have it.
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space_shrooms

Registered: 05/04/17
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Poppy B]
#25434170 - 09/03/18 10:58 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poppy B said: Newbie cultivator question. Must the pan cyan spores, whether in a dry spore print form or in a syringe be germinated using agar method? I am doing my due diligence reading here on the boards, but mostly what I have studied on is basic Cubensis growing. My favorite wild foraged species has always been Pan Cyans, even long before I knew the scientific name for them. The micro scale cultivation seems more attractive to me than ever, since climbing over barbed wire or scurrying underneath electric fencing gets increasingly difficult each year lol. Not to mention my moral dilemma with tresspassing. So if any of the experts have quick links to streamlined tutorials I would surely appreciate it.
You can go straight to liquid culture or grain with spores but as with all species it is highly recommended that you germinate them on agar so that you can reduce the likelihood of contamination.
You’re posting in the main pan thread. I know there are over 300 pages here and it’s a lot to get through, but it is very worthwhile reading if you want to grow these mushrooms. This link here is also a great resource - https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13249652
Good luck
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mullugh
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Blue Helix]
#25434480 - 09/04/18 07:25 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
mullugh said: Just had to throw away shoebox number two out of the three I made. Trich.
Last one standing is looking promising so far being only a few days old. Starting to run. I'm praying it survives...not sure why the other two got sick as all my PE boxes are fine (got four and one tamp box).
Please send me your good vibes...
Sorry, you are seeing mold waste your time. I'd like to help, but the information you gave here is just not enough for me to do that, but here are some more questions that might give me some idea: how are you prepping the substrate? What is in it? How is what was in it being stored? How much do your prep at once? How are you inoculating it? With that info, I might be able to give you some feedback as to what is going on.
Thank you. I'm using m/v/c/g and a small amount of worm casting direct from wormery to bucket, mixed with other ingredients (not much coir) then pasturised. Not had any issues with my technique for cubes here...I oven bag and bake for about an hour at 75_90 degrees C. Little bit of guesswork due to my oven instruments. Manure is stored outside prior. The two I've thrown out due to truck were both popcorn, this might be a factor as the one remaining is rye. The popcorn colonised well, but maybe it's not ideal. I've just done another batch to test an LC on where I crumbled a handful of manure into the water when hydrating my rye. Hoping this will speed it up.
Inoculation of the popcorn and one remaining running one was agar...usually prep two shoe boxes at once (but have been mixing up with cubes for example, might do one cube one pan from a batch).
Hope this helps.
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TheMadHatter420
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: space_shrooms]
#25434507 - 09/04/18 07:52 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
aicaca said:
Quote:
Poppy B said: Newbie cultivator question. Must the pan cyan spores, whether in a dry spore print form or in a syringe be germinated using agar method? I am doing my due diligence reading here on the boards, but mostly what I have studied on is basic Cubensis growing. My favorite wild foraged species has always been Pan Cyans, even long before I knew the scientific name for them. The micro scale cultivation seems more attractive to me than ever, since climbing over barbed wire or scurrying underneath electric fencing gets increasingly difficult each year lol. Not to mention my moral dilemma with tresspassing. So if any of the experts have quick links to streamlined tutorials I would surely appreciate it.
You can go straight to liquid culture or grain with spores but as with all species it is highly recommended that you germinate them on agar so that you can reduce the likelihood of contamination.
You’re posting in the main pan thread. I know there are over 300 pages here and it’s a lot to get through, but it is very worthwhile reading if you want to grow these mushrooms. This link here is also a great resource - https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13249652
Good luck 
Pans carry an even higher risk of contam, when putting spores straight to grains or LC. This is because pans don't have the veil like cubes, so their gills are even more exposed to contamination than cubes.
Also since he mentions hunting wild shrooms, I should mention that IF he is using spores from wild fruits, they will be even worse and agar is almost required for spores from wild fruits.
-------------------- JOIN THE POW WOW
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Poppy B
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10 4 I appreciate the great info to each and every one who replied. I will try using a purchased print or LC first, then maybe in the future if this fungus growing thing becomes an obsession I will move on to cleaning up wild strains.
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mullugh
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
#25434605 - 09/04/18 09:06 AM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said:
Quote:
mullugh said: Just had to throw away shoebox number two out of the three I made. Trich.
Last one standing is looking promising so far being only a few days old. Starting to run. I'm praying it survives...not sure why the other two got sick as all my PE boxes are fine (got four and one tamp box).
Please send me your good vibes...
How are you prepping your sub?
Thank you also, answer above
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