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OfflineNumina
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Speed Racer] * 3
    #25178466 - 05/01/18 05:36 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Hi SpeedRacer,

I understand completely about the casing.  That was a big mystery to me too.  The casing in the above picture (No. 5) is badly overlaid and there is no way it would have fruited except for maybe at the sides of the tray. Its there because its the only casing picture I had.

In that last grow I did about 17 jars with each tray taking a bit over one jar, so I had plenty of trays to experiment with.  I used 50/50+ on all the trays.  There are plenty of approaches to casing on here and other places.  I tried for a casing thickness of <1cm on all the trays, very loose, no compression at all. 

At first I cased, replaced the foil, punched more holes and put the trays back into incubation for 2 to 3 days. I got serious overlay on all the trays I did like this. Although, on some, there was not very much visible mycellium on the surface, the casing was well consolidated and you could almost peel it off in one piece!  My intuition told me this was not good. I reduced the casing colonisation period to <24 hrs with some trays put straight into fruiting after casing.  I also tried to reduce the thickness so that the substrate was just covered. I feel this was much better. The trays with all the mushrooms growing in the pics above had almost no mycellium in the casing and a casing thickness closer to 0.5cm. 

Because I had so many trays to play with, I didn't mind losing a few so I tried different things.  Both David Barlow and Stamets refer to scratching up the casing if it overlays. Barlow also mentions thinning the casing.  I tried both of these things.  I tore up the casings with a probe (thick needle on a handle) and then scraped some of it off if I thought it was too thick .  As Stamets predicted, this set the trays back about a week compared with those that didn't need this treatment but they pinned very well after!  I did not expect that! 

I don't pretend to fully understand this part of the whole process, but based on my experimentation, next time I would make the casing thinner, to just cover the substrate (the issue with this is, the casing is much more likely to dry out under this scenario, so watch it carefully).  If it overlays, hack it up, you might need to use two implements to do this because the mycellium hangs on tenaciously. Be patient (i'm not, DOH!), many others have said the substrate will fruit when it is ready, I agree, I could not control this at all.

One last thing, The substrate shrunk from the sides of the trays a lot.  At first I would fill this gap with water and leave for some hours, overnight some times to rehydrate, later I stopped doing this and just used a very large syringe (60cc) and flooded (literally) the casing in between the pins and growing mushrooms.  I am convinced this is why they flushed over an over again.  Good luck. I'm happy to elaborate if needed.  I have another 8 jars half done ATM so I will be doing further experimentation to confirm some of my earlier theories.


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Numina]
    #25178518 - 05/01/18 05:55 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

FYI, Blue Helix mentions using a fork to scratch up the overlay, too. In the old threads,
it is mentioned that this is "outdated" information. But how someone would argue that against
Blue Helix's results is above my pay grade.


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OfflineNumina
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #25178691 - 05/01/18 07:15 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for that heads up Asura, makes me feel more confident about mentioning it.  I tried to read all of BlueHelix's post regardless of how old, but I must have missed that reference. 

I think i should add something for SpeedRacer, fine-tuning the casing wont help if your fruiting conditions are not right.  In my first failed attempt, I did everything exactly the same (except for scratching up the casing) but I was so obsessed with keeping the humidity up that I sealed my GH (just some plastic draped over a frame) tight as a drum.  Sure I got the RH up but I might as well have had the substrates still under the foil and in the incubation chamber.  No surprises that I got serious overlay and no fruit.  If using a GH, read RR's posts on cutting slits in the sides and read Violets tek on setting up a GH.  I tried a SGFC but I didn't fan enough and it only produced a couple of splindly little mushrooms.  Not the way to go for me.

I loved violet's write up on the essentials of FCs and I currently use her design with a 120mm computer fan sucking air out of the FC for 40sec every 40mins and a single disk ultrasonic driven by a smaller computer fan, piped into the FC and connected to a $38AUD humidity controller (switch) from china or hong kong or somewhere.  I had some trouble dialing in the setup at first. I originally had a 120mm fan blowing the ultrasonic output into the FC but it was too strong and mixed to much dry air with the mist and I could not get the RH up enough.  Had a lot of trouble keeping the casing from drying out.

Those humidity switches aren't that accurate at the upper humidities.  I set mine to come on at 90% and off at 92%, but I think 92% measured by the switch was more like 95% inside the FC.  Anyway, as long as the casing stays moist >90% should be fine IME.  Oh and I was very careful not to touch the substrate surface when scratching up the casing layer.


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OfflineNumina
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Numina]
    #25179045 - 05/01/18 10:59 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I’d just like to share my musings about the casing layer and the possible mechanism behind the scratching up thing.  I’m happy for any of the biologist or physicists among you (or anyone else) to critique as necessary.  Sorry to bore you, probably more for the insomniacs, read on if you have trouble sleeping.

BTW none of this is new or my original thought, its all been said before but I just  thought I’d re-phrase it.

I have thought a lot about the natural fruiting conditions of these little mushrooms and for the last three to four months I’ve read nothing but posts and books (Stamet’s TMC and GGAMM and others), watched videos blah blah blah blah blah!  My wife tells me I’m obsessed with mushrooms.

I read on here recently some poor exasperated cultivator who’d had such a gut full of his poorly performing casings that he threatened to plant grass seed in his substrates to try and reproduce natural fruiting conditions.  Not that far fetched and a good basis for outdoor beds as my discarded vegie patch substrates demonstrated to me.

I observed these little shit lovers in the wild and I found that while they also grew on exposed cow pats, the best specimens were hidden in tufts of grass that surrounded the shit cakes.

So here’s the story, after the shit comes out of the cow’s arse it is accelerated towards the ground at 9.8m/sec2 and SPLAT!, it hits the ground and is flattened out.  It sits there for months on end and is dried and drenched and dried and drenched ad infinitum.  Some of the nutrients are leached out into the surrounding soil providing a nitrogen spike and causing a growth spurt in the grass lucky enough to have been underneath it when it crash landed.

This grass is a lot taller than the surrounding grass and creates a micro environment around the pat.  Around every object within a fluid is what’s called a boundary layer, a layer of fluid that is sort of stuck to the object and flows much more slowing along its surface than the fluid further away from the object (creating a velocity gradient).  So the grass is sort of hanging on to the the air right next to it and causing all the air within the tuft to stay there longer.

At the same time, especially if its sunny, each blade of grass is pumping out gobs of water vapour (transpiration) trying to stay cool.  Any free water on the surface of the blades and the cow pat itself is also evaporating off into the surrounding air.  Now the air in the tuft is already trapped to some extend by the physical barrier of the grass to air flow and the individual boundary layers around each blade.  The humidity in this micro environment goes through the roof.  There is however ample fresh air exchange as regular wind gusts blast the micro environment which is simply re-established through the continuous transpiration and evaporation mechanism mentioned before.  Ladies and gentlemen Mother Nature has just applied her casing layer! Take a bow!  Wow, she’s good!
It is the casing layer that keeps the humidity at the substrate surface at near 100%.  The humidity in the FC only keeps the casing from drying out so it can keep doing this! ( I should reference everyone who has said this before me but I couldn’t be bothered). Later is stops the maturing fruits from drying out also but this discussion is about the casing.

I noticed when I scratched up an overlaid casing it was difficult to break it up as finely as when it was first applied because of all the mycellium holding it together.  It was much more lumpy.  This created a lot more (and larger) voids in the casing layer.  More voids, larger air pockets, boundary layers, better fresh air access to the substrate surface while still performing its function of “trapping” the air (in between FAEs) and keeping the RH high.  Casings on the trays which didn’t overlay had this physical structure already (more or less) and fruited profusely.  After re-creating it in the overlaid casings they also took off.  As mentioned before, all the other fruiting conditions must also exist, FAE being the biggie.

My 2c worth.


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Offline99.99
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Numina]
    #25179054 - 05/01/18 11:09 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I read on here recently some poor exasperated cultivator who’d had such a gut full of his poorly performing casings that he threatened to plant grass seed in his substrates to try and reproduce natural fruiting conditions. ... End quote

Lol  I bet that was me it's something that I said recently cause all my casing suck.....  They all turn green after my first harvest

Best one ive had and its just ok


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OfflineAdas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: 99.99]
    #25179211 - 05/02/18 03:38 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I wanted to plant grass seed into my Pan cinctulus casing :smile: But ended up just throwing the jar away... Too much of a hassle. The one pin that I got aborted anyway..


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Offlinehamloaf
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Numina]
    #25179267 - 05/02/18 04:48 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Numina said:
Hi SpeedRacer,

I understand completely about the casing.  That was a big mystery to me too.  The casing in the above picture (No. 5) is badly overlaid and there is no way it would have fruited except for maybe at the sides of the tray. Its there because its the only casing picture I had.

In that last grow I did about 17 jars with each tray taking a bit over one jar, so I had plenty of trays to experiment with.  I used 50/50+ on all the trays.  There are plenty of approaches to casing on here and other places.  I tried for a casing thickness of <1cm on all the trays, very loose, no compression at all. 

At first I cased, replaced the foil, punched more holes and put the trays back into incubation for 2 to 3 days. I got serious overlay on all the trays I did like this. Although, on some, there was not very much visible mycellium on the surface, the casing was well consolidated and you could almost peel it off in one piece!  My intuition told me this was not good. I reduced the casing colonisation period to <24 hrs with some trays put straight into fruiting after casing.  I also tried to reduce the thickness so that the substrate was just covered. I feel this was much better. The trays with all the mushrooms growing in the pics above had almost no mycellium in the casing and a casing thickness closer to 0.5cm. 

Because I had so many trays to play with, I didn't mind losing a few so I tried different things.  Both David Barlow and Stamets refer to scratching up the casing if it overlays. Barlow also mentions thinning the casing.  I tried both of these things.  I tore up the casings with a probe (thick needle on a handle) and then scraped some of it off if I thought it was too thick .  As Stamets predicted, this set the trays back about a week compared with those that didn't need this treatment but they pinned very well after!  I did not expect that! 

I don't pretend to fully understand this part of the whole process, but based on my experimentation, next time I would make the casing thinner, to just cover the substrate (the issue with this is, the casing is much more likely to dry out under this scenario, so watch it carefully).  If it overlays, hack it up, you might need to use two implements to do this because the mycellium hangs on tenaciously. Be patient (i'm not, DOH!), many others have said the substrate will fruit when it is ready, I agree, I could not control this at all.

One last thing, The substrate shrunk from the sides of the trays a lot.  At first I would fill this gap with water and leave for some hours, overnight some times to rehydrate, later I stopped doing this and just used a very large syringe (60cc) and flooded (literally) the casing in between the pins and growing mushrooms.  I am convinced this is why they flushed over an over again.  Good luck. I'm happy to elaborate if needed.  I have another 8 jars half done ATM so I will be doing further experimentation to confirm some of my earlier theories.



Did you notice any difference in the casings you introduced into fruiting right away between the casings you placed back into colonization for 24 hours. 

Nice posts, BTW.  I learned things on the dynamics of a casing layer, and how Copelandia utilizes it's microclimate/environment to fruit in nature.  Thanks for taking time out to post.


--------------------

   
How I Get Stuff done. - My Reference Guide. - My Grows.


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Invisiblemary fairchild
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Numina]
    #25179741 - 05/02/18 10:16 AM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for your detailed posts Numina,
Since you are right in the middle of your grow (I think you said you have more jars coming up). Have you considered casing with VERM ALONE on one of your trays- or even better, a tray that is half verm alone and half verm:peat as one of your conditions? It would be interesting to see how a "overlay happy mycelia" behaves on a straight verm case.


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OfflineSpeed Racer
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mary fairchild]
    #25180016 - 05/02/18 01:41 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks Numina, and all the others for the through explanations.

I have one of those Chinese electronic humidity meters/switches and another Temperature switch/meter. I have the sensors mounted to small piece of copper tubing with the wires running through it + three feet of cable so I can insert this probe into my monotubes. I don’t use the switch but randomly probe the four monotubs to monitor conditions. I was keeping the temp relatively constant at 81 F and the humify around 90% by misting into the tubs over the course of the day. I also had the Monos filled with maybe 1 inch of course vermiculite on the bottom rather thoroughly watered down. Using two or three shoeboxes in each mono on top of the verm.  I can maintain Temp very well Humidity not so much finding it hard to keep it above 90%.

I understand you running a computer fan with an ultrasonic fog maker. Have a similar setup in a tub using a stack to exhaust opposite corner from the fog in, using an aquarium pump to move the air. That tube went to shit after casing. Maybe not enough air movement.

I’m doing this in an Old Back Work Room with a plywood floor and the walls and ceiling covered in drywall and that old funky insullboard, nothing is painted. I am thinking this room has mold spores in the air and that is contaminating my grow when I put the spawned oat or wheat berries to the substrate and again when I open the monotubes to case them. 

I have a nice still air box where I put the spore syringe fluid on agar, do my agar work and then inoculate the quarts of grain with wedges of agar. That part is done in my rec. room and it goes well with no contamination.  My wife frown on the whole project and working with the substrate anywhere outside the back work-room has be a NO, at least to this point.
I scored some Cubes and they are marginal at best. I need to push on with this hobby. 

Glove box - gloves = Still Air Box.


Again thanks.


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InvisibleGerms
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Speed Racer] * 1
    #25180561 - 05/02/18 07:11 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)


Had some Pan Cambo I was almost positive had some white mold + bacteria meshed in... was such a small and light print I had been working with and after a few attempts I tried a hot pour on a couple promising plates and seem to have found some good and clean leading growth


Had some Pan Bi on LME and BRF and thought it was wispy but this almost looks like cobweb. This is grain water agar. Pretty uniform growth and speed of colonization for a panaeolus species though, so I’m making some transfers to dung agar


Some Pan Trop, also wispy but some nice sectoring
Think this one is ready for the next step


--------------------


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InvisibleJust_A_Noob
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Germs] * 3
    #25180655 - 05/02/18 08:07 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------

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Offlinehamloaf
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #25180662 - 05/02/18 08:11 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

:yess:


--------------------

   
How I Get Stuff done. - My Reference Guide. - My Grows.


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #25180689 - 05/02/18 08:26 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just_A_Noob said:





:congrats::rockon:


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: mushboy]
    #25180691 - 05/02/18 08:27 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Here's mine:sad:


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OfflineAsuraS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #25180695 - 05/02/18 08:29 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just_A_Noob said:





Behold!

:mustnotfap:


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InvisibleJust_A_Noob
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Asura]
    #25180702 - 05/02/18 08:33 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

I just hope they mature okay


--------------------

Wearing a mask is bad for my physical, emotional, and spiritual health.
Complying = Consent
Wide Mouth 1/2 Pint No-Pour TEK
TC Teks & Links


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InvisibleGerms
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #25180704 - 05/02/18 08:34 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Just_A_Noob said:
I just hope they mature okay



Lots of air... and don’t mist

Edited to add: temperatur is key as well for full fruit body maturation. 75-80s is desired


--------------------


Edited by Germs (05/02/18 08:35 PM)


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InvisibleJust_A_Noob
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Germs]
    #25180711 - 05/02/18 08:37 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

:thumbup:

It's been low 70 through the night and it will get upwards of 85 for awhile during the day


--------------------

Wearing a mask is bad for my physical, emotional, and spiritual health.
Complying = Consent
Wide Mouth 1/2 Pint No-Pour TEK
TC Teks & Links


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InvisibleMycolorado
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Just_A_Noob]
    #25180861 - 05/02/18 10:32 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Nice, JAN!


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25182215 - 05/03/18 04:07 PM (5 years, 8 months ago)

Tossed this bisporus sub in a mini last night.  Not much structure to the sub and straight up looked like mold in the bag...not sure if this is gonna do much but it did bounce back a tad...the tub pic is from today.  Prolly case it tonight.  Looking forward to working with some other pans as this myc just seems fragile.



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