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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624207 - 01/17/24 05:24 AM (10 days, 17 hours ago)

Hey Reishiman, that's not my reason for doing the poo jars but it is a benefit of it yeah.

My reason is because the cultures I've been working with so far are much slower on grain then other species I'm used to working with.  I did eventually get all my straight grain jars to colonize but it took about two months and several shakes.  I think grains by themselves might be *too* nutritious in a sense, like when you transfer to a high nutrient plate and the mycelium just sits in one spot?  That seemed to be my experience with jars I didn't supplement with poo or wood.  Shaking them seemed to encourage them to search for food.  Then they'd find new grains, colonize them, and go back to just chilling until I shook them again.

But, yes, my intention is to not pastuirize poo and mix the jars with a quart of coir.

I think your water agar plan is a good one for cleaning up a bacterial culture.  I've recently switched to only cloning on water agar after losing about 50% of my 1% lme clone plates to bacteria and finding that that almost all my water agar plates, which I had half-assed and been sloppy as shit with, were fine.

What's your pastuerization process like and what's your casing recipe?  Because from here it kinda sounds like it's either the casing or your poo.  Even if your spawn is a bit bacterial it doesn't really explain the mold showing up in the casing layer which should be pretty mold proof.  Granted, the bacteria could weaken the mycelium and make it vulnerable to parasites.  But if that was what was happening I'd expect trich to be the suspect in question rather than a gray mold.

edit:  The gray mold could be the mycelium on the casing layer.  It won't colonize it the same way it will the substrate but it will likely poke through and could look like mold.  My poo jars looked like mold more than cube mycelium up until last night.  And if I didn't know better I'd have suspected everything on the top of my poo jar to be mold.

Do you have pictures?


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/17/24 05:32 AM)


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: tree frog]
    #28624257 - 01/17/24 07:11 AM (10 days, 16 hours ago)

Thanks for the reply Treefrog. Interesting about the grain poo. Definitely something I'll keep in mind for future grows.
Sorry but this is the only picture I took of one of the trays. This one looked really good at first but then noticed this uncolonized area with some gray groes looking mycelium and as I watched unsure if it was in fact pan mycelium, it began to turn black. A few other trays had these little burs on the straw that I could see was definitely mold. And some other trays got the gray blackening mold on the surface after casing. The ones that lasted the longest got covered in yellow and clear jelly looking metabolites(possibly over misted or humidity) although my guess is it was already fighting bacteria. Also I cased 9 parts sifted peat moss 1 part calcium carbonate(powder from brew store) and 10 parts vermiculite.
  My bulk substrate consisted of straw, bagged cow manure, vermiculite, coir, and worm castings. This bulk substrate worked for cubes but I plan on simplifying it on the next grow. Plan on doing some trays of straw, manure, and vermiculite. And some trays of manure,coir,and vermiculite. (All substrates are measured by eye and feel but where I listed the ingredients I put them in order of greatest quantity to least if that makes sense.)

Also this is a picture I just took of one of the plates. After growing out I noticed almost all of them have some clear jelly like metabolites which are similar to the metabolites found on the trays I had that lasted the longest and which also gradually turned more yellow than clear. It very small and towards the middle of the plate. I at first took them for condensation but they haven't moved in over a week. My theory is that there's some kind of bacteria hitching a ride which is causing the metabolites because I'm pretty sure they shouldn't occur on clean agar cultures.

Edit: oh and my pasteurizing process is similar to a process I learned from a YouTube video from a member croncir I think is his name but not sure. It involves loading gallon ziplock bags with hydrated substrate mix and pasteurize in the pressure cooker with a thermometer and all that and putting the lid on(without weight on valve)for an hour. Only difference is that I make sure it stays between 140 and 170 for 2 hours and that it's between 160 and 170 for the second half of the 2 hours with the lid on but vent open. After the 2 hours is up I double check the temperature to make sure it's still above 160 but below 170 and then take out to cool on a shelf. At most some of my bags may have reached 175 but I tried to not go over 170.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


Edited by Reishiman (01/17/24 07:34 AM)


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman] * 1
    #28624265 - 01/17/24 07:25 AM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

I bet it's your casing.  It's where it started and I doubt your ph is high enough to stop molds from germinating.

I think most everyone is using calcium hydroxide.  Pickling lime.  My casing smells like wet cement and reminds me of working construction.  And I wear gloves and a mask when I'm working with it because lime can give you chemical burns.  So I don't want to breathe it or get it on my hands.

From Baba's Pans in monos thread.  I think it was also discussed a few pages back but I couldn't find it with a cursory thread search.

10 parts peat
10 parts vermiculite
1/4 part hydrated lime

Calcium carbonate is beneficial in jars though in several edible species according to studies I've read.  Not sure if Pans like it but it probably wouldn't hurt to use in jars and your substrate for calcium and ph balancing since you have it.



Second flush MS Bisporus gave me some beautiful thick clusters.  Fruiting temps in the water chamber are probably swinging from high sixties to low seventies.  Fruits took maybe three days to develop post pinning.

Going to clone a bunch of tissue to water agar and dry the two clusters separately for potency testing (bioassay).

Feeling excited!  The first flush fruits were way less dense both in fruit body thickness and size and clustering.  Also a lot of pinning near the edge (not quite sidespin but close).  I am running out some first flush fruits out next (in poo jars now), and they might do better in better conditions.

But these clusters are really putting the first flush to shame.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/17/24 07:30 AM)


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: tree frog]
    #28624277 - 01/17/24 07:45 AM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

Thanks. Just edited my last post to include my pasteurizing process.
I do have a bag of hi yield lime but was afraid to use it because I don't trust my ph tester. It seemed to go lower in ph when I added lime last time so the tester must have been broken. I'll have to do some trays with the 1/4 part hi yield lime to rule that out as well but I have used the calcium carbonate casing for cubes before so not sure if thats the issue. Btw I have hi yield lime brand. The one that's most common I think. Will 1/4 part of that brand be ok or do I definitely need a good ph tester? Hopefully I can find one either way but just in case.

Edit: congrats on the bisporus flushes btw. That are a very beautiful mushroom.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


Edited by Reishiman (01/17/24 07:48 AM)


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624287 - 01/17/24 08:03 AM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

Your pastuerization times might be a little short.  I haven't had to pastuerize poo but I do straw for 90 minutes or longer and I don't start the timer until the center of the mass hits 160 and I try to keep it under 180.

I *think* people are doing poo longer but because my grain spawn has stalled out and I'm now just doing poo in jars I've only ever had to pastuerize casing for actives.

A simple way to pastuerize if you're doing small amounts is in a dehydrator set at 160.  This is how I run my casing.  Because I can set it and forget it basically.  I put it in, go watch a show.  If I remember I check the center to see if it's hit temperature in an hour or two.  I come back and turn it off when I remember.  Because it never gets over 160 anyway I can pastuerize without any babysitting.  If you want to do a bit larger amounts you can snip a dehydrator tray and run enough to do several shoeboxes of poo pretty easily.

I think if I was in your position I'd suspect both my casing and my poo might be sources of contamination and I'd either try poo in jars or a longer pastuerization time.  Same for the casing probably, along with higher ph.  I don't use a ph tester.  I tried but I either suck at using them or they suck.  But using the recipes and the ratios shared here in this thread and the sclerotia thread, things seem to be working out.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: tree frog]
    #28624317 - 01/17/24 08:35 AM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Thank you Tree frog. It's definitely helpful to get some ideas trying to troubleshoot this. Going to try increasing my pasteurizing temperatures 180 max instead of 170 and probably just try to keep it between 160 and 180 for 2 hours. Just worried about killing all the benefiting organisms but I'm sure there's a lot of them in manure to begin with. I'm also trying some different sources for different ingredients but trying to keep it simple too.
    Also I've read about that method for pasteurizing casings and I actually already have a tray cut out so maybe I'll try that too kinda trying not to change too many things that I know worked for cubes too because well, they're adding variables. I'll get it though eventually I hope.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


Edited by Reishiman (01/17/24 08:38 AM)


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624326 - 01/17/24 08:41 AM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Reishiman, I've never pasteurized like that but the time and temps sound good to me.  Looking at that plate though, it seems really thick and matted down.  I test my luck with all types of looking plates, but I'd be trying to transfer that another time or 2.


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: stagger]
    #28624342 - 01/17/24 08:54 AM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Ok thanks for the advice.. I actually just transferred from a plate that looked identical to that one to water agar yesterday so hopefully I will get some good sectors to choose from to go back to regular agar and see how it looks then. Will post update when I do. Probably a week or two because it's a fast culture.
Edit: Also plan on dropping a few drops of spores on some plates today to try and find some other cultures to work with. Still got most of a pan cambo sandose syringe and have an unopened pan cambo Goliath syringe that maybe I'll break out



--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


Edited by Reishiman (01/17/24 09:16 AM)


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Offlinetree frog
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624359 - 01/17/24 09:11 AM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

I just googled poo pastuerization times and temps and they do run about ten degrees lower than straw.  Sorry to lead you astray, your poo times are fine as stagger said.

I'm also just learning pan mycelium and have mostly seen bisporus in person, so I didn't take a close look at your plate.  I do think water agar transfers are a great idea as you mentioned in one of your posts.  Water agar has been a life saver recently for me cloning these and tamps.


--------------------
Listen to the silence behind the engines' noise.  Jesus, Sweets, listen.  Hear it?  It's a love song.
For whom?
You are loved.
~ David Foster Wallace, Westward the Course of Empire Takes Its Way


Edited by tree frog (01/17/24 09:13 AM)


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: tree frog]
    #28624367 - 01/17/24 09:19 AM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Thanks Tree frog much appreciated. One thing I know about this hobby is nothing is set in stone and all knowledge can and should be modified to fits one circumstances.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624640 - 01/17/24 02:03 PM (10 days, 9 hours ago)

Hi all, sorry if this question has already been asked, ditto if it's a stupid one :blush:. I'm a novice at growing pans, i.e this is my first time... essentially I read the listing for the sub/grow bag wrong :confused: I thought it contained manure, but it didn't. I have a fully colonised brf/pf cake, what should I do with it? I'm assuming I can't just treat it like a regular grow bag and leave it? Will it fruit without manure? Is it too late to add some now?


--------------------
Mushroom growing newbie :grin::mushroom2:


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: AdderLadder]
    #28624660 - 01/17/24 02:37 PM (10 days, 8 hours ago)

I would say it's not too late to add some manure if you haven't spawned yet. But you will have to pasteurize it. You might want to read up on making your own bulk substrates too especially for pans because you won't want to have to order a grow bag every time you spawn to bulk. And then you can just keep the ingredients and play with different ratios and different ingredients.
  Granted I have not grown pans yet successfully. But I would say this advice would apply to all of mushroom cultivation.
  Maybe someone has grown pans on a non manure substrate but I haven't seen it. Not to say it isn't possible given the right genetics and conditions but most likely you will want to stick with what has been proven to work for others especially when just starting out like myself.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28624714 - 01/17/24 03:24 PM (10 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Reishiman said:
I would say it's not too late to add some manure if you haven't spawned yet. But you will have to pasteurize it. You might want to read up on making your own bulk substrates too especially for pans because you won't want to have to order a grow bag every time you spawn to bulk. And then you can just keep the ingredients and play with different ratios and different ingredients.
  Granted I have not grown pans yet successfully. But I would say this advice would apply to all of mushroom cultivation.
  Maybe someone has grown pans on a non manure substrate but I haven't seen it. Not to say it isn't possible given the right genetics and conditions but most likely you will want to stick with what has been proven to work for others especially when just starting out like myself.




You're right, I would have stuck to manure, I wrongly assumed this had some in it ☹️ there are no pins on it or anything it's just a white block, would you suggest I break the cake up and sprinkle some of the pasteurised manure on top of it or just sprinkle some on top the cake?


--------------------
Mushroom growing newbie :grin::mushroom2:


Edited by AdderLadder (01/17/24 03:28 PM)


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OfflineReishiman
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: AdderLadder]
    #28624759 - 01/17/24 03:56 PM (10 days, 7 hours ago)

Ok so you already spawned your brf cakes to the bulk substrate? Or maybe it was an all in one grow bag with grains mixed in and pre sterilized? Either way you could try experimenting with what you just said. Not sure if it would be better to mix it together or sprinkle it on top. Maybe you could try both with half the cake one way and half the other way. Just make sure you throw a casing on it after fully colonized (look up 50/50 casing) if you don't know about that. Casing is also usually considered a necessity for pans in addition to the manure.
    Also not to discourage but to prepare for the worst I would start doing some agar work for the next grow in case this one goes south. You're going to want to get started ASAP on another attempt. Hope for  the best, prepare for the worst and get another culture going would be my advice. Because either way agar work is inexpensive and fun. Also good for piece of mind knowing you got culture on back up.
Edit: pictures might help because I'm not sure what you got going on. You might be able to just spawn to a bulk substrate with manure included and pasturized. Especially if you just have brf colonized at the moment.


--------------------
Animals are something invented by plants to move seeds around. ... Terrence McKenna

A psychedelic point of view is one that values consciousness... Terrence McKenna


Edited by Reishiman (01/17/24 04:19 PM)


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InvisibleTheAtlanteanS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Reishiman]
    #28625322 - 01/17/24 09:18 PM (10 days, 1 hour ago)

What is the Bisporus trip/journey like? I swabbed a couple plates today.


--------------------

Meditation is passive learning. Tabernacling with the one infinite Creator is passive learning. It is the learning from listening to the voice one cannot hear which answers questions which one cannot ask. The process cannot be known and cannot come into consciousness in local sense, yet the learning is there. And the strength of spirit and will which comes from this learning is helpful.
.

:egyptian:www.templeofhermes.org:egyptian:


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InvisibleSwabMarleyS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheAtlantean] * 4
    #28625447 - 01/18/24 12:19 AM (9 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

TheAtlantean said:
What is the Bisporus trip/journey like? I swabbed a couple plates today.



Fuckin intense mate. I’ve dosed from 0.6 up to about 1.1 and they are always pretty intense. I’ve had one trip that was so so but the first ever time I tried them was a 0.6g tester and had ego death. Granted I think I might have picked the strongest few mushrooms from the batch but nonetheless these are the strongest mushrooms I’ve ever ingested and I’ve tried 4-5 pan varieties so far and it’s blown them all out the water.

I think I sent you those Bispos didn’t I? If so, buckle up
:shaqwiggle:


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InvisibleTheAtlanteanS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: SwabMarley]
    #28625454 - 01/18/24 12:59 AM (9 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

SwabMarley said:
Quote:

TheAtlantean said:
What is the Bisporus trip/journey like? I swabbed a couple plates today.



Fuckin intense mate. I’ve dosed from 0.6 up to about 1.1 and they are always pretty intense. I’ve had one trip that was so so but the first ever time I tried them was a 0.6g tester and had ego death. Granted I think I might have picked the strongest few mushrooms from the batch but nonetheless these are the strongest mushrooms I’ve ever ingested and I’ve tried 4-5 pan varieties so far and it’s blown them all out the water.

I think I sent you those Bispos didn’t I? If so, buckle up
:shaqwiggle:





This is what I'm talking about..
:coolcat:

What is the average harvest from a flush?


--------------------

Meditation is passive learning. Tabernacling with the one infinite Creator is passive learning. It is the learning from listening to the voice one cannot hear which answers questions which one cannot ask. The process cannot be known and cannot come into consciousness in local sense, yet the learning is there. And the strength of spirit and will which comes from this learning is helpful.
.

:egyptian:www.templeofhermes.org:egyptian:


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Invisibleekabpils
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheAtlantean] * 13
    #28625472 - 01/18/24 02:24 AM (9 days, 20 hours ago)

After many attempts it seems I will have something ) Mystery SA.



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OfflineGenome794
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheAtlantean]
    #28625493 - 01/18/24 03:42 AM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

Just refering back to the discussion between Reishiman and Tree Frog...

Pasteurisation
I found this Tek by FrankHorrigan to be the "last word" on pasteurisation.
Frank's Proper Pasteurization Tek 3.0
Assuming you don't have a Sous-whats-it.

In case you are not aware any sub that has grains in has the lowest chance of failure when sterilized.

The turning point in my Pan grows came from reading Stonesun's "As easy as Cubes" series. The feature in those grow-logs is that the trials were done in either monotubs or dubtubs AND with the same methods.

And if you haven't looked at Baba Yaga's on going 🍄🍄🍄 PANAEOLUS IN MONO TUBS 3.0 🍄🍄🍄... Get over there, a lot of good info.

YMMV
794


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: TheAtlantean] * 2
    #28625496 - 01/18/24 03:51 AM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

I’ve done about 5-6 boxes and if I remember correctly from 1qt spawn I was pulling maybe 90-150g first flush and then kind of 75% less on second then 50% on a successive flush and so forth. Some of my boxes went 6 flushes. In all I maybe pulled about 12 or so grams from each quart maybe which when you put it into cube terms. 0.5ish for an average trip would be 3g’s cubes so your talking 72g’s or just shy of 3oZ if they were cubes which is nay too shabby for an MS grow.

Thats the way I look at things anyways!


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