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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake] 1
#27998905 - 10/14/22 03:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ghiajake said: All I am postulating is that when the metric system was created in the 18th Century their water filtration methods were crap, or nonexistent. Your claims about water temp are really irrelevant, seeing as when the system was created it was "A liter of water at a standard temperature weighed one kilogram". "Standard temperature" means room temp.
They didn't use room temperature for the "standard temperature" because 4 degrees C is when water has the maximum density. Less than or more than that, the density decreases.
Saying you've disproven 1 liter = 1 kg because a mason jar doesn't have perfectly accurate markings is like a fat person saying the scale can't be accurate because they couldn't possibly weight that much.
You literally proved the result by using the syringe. Since that was so accurate, 30 syringes full of 30 mLs should produce exactly 900 mLs in the flask.
Edited to add: So nobody had the ability to distill water in the 18th century? Sucked to be them.
Edited by ruawakeyet (10/14/22 03:27 PM)
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] 2
#27998917 - 10/14/22 03:35 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Pure water is 1kg per liter at it's maximum density. Air pressure is playing a role as well so we are talking @ sea level and temp @ about 4C. You don't think this would have been corrected by now if they were wrong back then, I mean its basic chemistry/physics. The error margin of consumer products will probably play a role in your observations.
If you want to get to the bottom of this then I would suggest to take this discussion to the chemistry forum.
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ghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27998933 - 10/14/22 03:45 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ruawakeyet said: I personally trust weight measurements, over volume measurements, especially on mass produced jars. Those markings were made on the original model, which made the molds used to form the jars, so those are anything but scientific. Look at how close the syringe was though. That has to be far more calibrated since it's a medical device, and that result was WELL within the margin of error for accuracy.
Let me throw something else out there: Our digital scales only measure the weight of an item. Weight is not necessarily the same as mass.
Mass doesn't change depending on the gravitational pull, but weight does. So we would weigh less on the moon, but our mass would remain the same. There is a slight gravitational difference from the equator to the poles, so weight can technically change a slight bit depending on where we are at on Earth.
In order to measure mass, balance beams have to be used instead of a scale. (Of course, I don't think the gravitational variable could change the results beyond 0.001%)
Last calculation I'm up for is this: 1,000 mLs of water at 130 degrees F should have a mass of 985.96 grams. If the average you were getting was around 960 grams, that's a difference of 24 grams, or roughly 24 mLs. That is only a 2.4% margin of error, so I could easily chock that up to the jar and/or flask manufacturer.
Since I helped take the discussion so far off of cultivating pans, let me try and get it back on topic. (No judgement on anyone, I like the discussion but I can sense someone is about to tell us to get back on track.) 
I failed one attempt at Pan Cyan Alabama, and basically two attempts at Peace River Florida Cyans, so I'm about to swab both of them to plates. I have armed myself with new knowledge about how to clean up cultures, specifically using water agar to help the myc outrun bacteria, and I'll try some grain water agar with black tea added to see if it inhibits bacterial growth or not. (Old info, so I'll test it.)
I'll be germinating on grain water agar, then transferring T1s to water agar or tea agar, then T2s back to nutrient agars. I hope that will get me past the dirty ass prints I'm working with.
You can trust a system that hasn't been updated since people started filtering water, or you can run the test yourself and show me the results. Ball jars are not made from the same molds as Erlenmeyer flasks, and flasks are made for chemistry so they have to be fairly accurate as well.
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake]
#27998945 - 10/14/22 03:57 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ghiajake said:You can trust a system that hasn't been updated since people started filtering water, or you can run the test yourself and show me the results. Ball jars are not made from the same molds as Erlenmeyer flasks, and flasks are made for chemistry so they have to be fairly accurate as well.
Take it to the chemistry forum, I'm not entertaining this dead-end discussion anymore. I never said mason jars are made from the same molds as flasks and I find it very questionable and dishonest to claim I did.
Back to pans...
I'm pretty sure Baba is the McGuyver of mycology. He could grow pans in the middle of the sahara desert!
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ghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27998987 - 10/14/22 04:21 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baba Yaga said: Pure water is 1kg per liter at it's maximum density. Air pressure is playing a role as well so we are talking @ sea level and temp @ about 4C. You don't think this would have been corrected by now if they were wrong back then, I mean its basic chemistry/physics. The error margin of consumer products will probably play a role in your observations.
If you want to get to the bottom of this then I would suggest to take this discussion to the chemistry forum.
What I'm saying is that when the metric system was created in the late 18th century, water filtration was relatively nonexistent. I'm also saying that refrigeration was not invented until after the metric system was, so unless the metric system was invented during the winter there is no way they would have set the "standard" below the average room temp. What science has had to change over the years (like measuring pure filtered water at it's maximum density) to compensate for the lack of extremely high levels of dissolved solids in the unfiltered water used to created the metric system, are of no concern to my argument. The fact of the matter is 1L of water at 16ppm weighs 981g at 38.5F, as I showed in my test.
Look, y'all can feel free to experiment yourself and disprove me. If I must I'll even run a test using syringes to fill my flask to see how far off the measurements are. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, but simply regurgitated what you've been told without questioning it is not going to change my mind. As is, I'm the only one here who's ran the experiment and posted results.
Edited by ghiajake (10/14/22 04:27 PM)
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ghiajake
Myco-Viking


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27998994 - 10/14/22 04:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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ruawakeyet said: Take it to the chemistry forum, I'm not entertaining this dead-end discussion anymore. I never said mason jars are made from the same molds as flasks and I find it very questionable and dishonest to claim I did.
I'm not taking the conversation somewhere else because you don't want to engage in it anymore. Just don't engage if you don't want to... This whole topic was brought up to answer a person's question about figuring out how much water to use when hydrating substrate. I brought up why I use weights instead of volume, and YOU were the one to ask for proof of my statement. Which I gave...
In case you need a reminder on how the conversation progressed....
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ghiajake said:
Quote:
PanMax said: How do you measure coir by volume? Stupid question, I'm sure, but if it comes in a brick, do you add water to it first and THEN measure by volume??
Thank you!
I just stopped measuring by volume.... I weigh both dry media and the water separately based on a standard 73-74% moisture level. But keep in mind that the gram weight and mL volume of modern filtered water do not match. A liter of my tap water weighs around 960g. whomever in the past said that 1L=1kg must have used muddy water...
Quote:
ruawakeyet said: Did you check it at 4 degrees C? The density of water changes with temperature, as well as dissolved solids. Now I have to look up if dissolved gases change the density of water... (Dissolved gases do not significantly change the density of water.)
(Edited 25 to 4 degrees C. I guess 4 degrees C, or 39.2 degrees F is the temperature that pure water is exactly 1 gram/mL.)
Edited by ghiajake (10/14/22 04:33 PM)
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SwabMarley
Twisted Metal Head



Registered: 12/07/20
Posts: 1,450
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 2
#27999012 - 10/14/22 04:32 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Hindsight said: I do the same, though I go to agar instead of grain to revive - just to ensure cleanliness but I'm probably going to stop doing that because I haven't had a single issue yet. I have created quite a library of clone cultures and it keeps growing.

Inspired me to buy the rack! Only had 3 or 4 cultures backed up with this method but had a bunch of cryovials laying around with some sterile water in that I PC’d a month or so ago. Decided to start getting everything backed up. Most of these are sterile distilled water with an agar wedge dropped in but a few are dry vials that I PC’d and dropped some dried grain into for revival at a later date!
In all, a great way to store cultures long term using minimal space!
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake] 1
#27999019 - 10/14/22 04:35 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Don't worry, I took my own advice and made a new post in Chemistry, linking the entire discussion up until these last two comments. The two units literally define each other.
You measured 981 mLs and are insisting it MUST be 1,000 mLs.
Your flask CLEARLY states: "APPROX." That is NOT exact, it's telling you as much. Your assertion that mason jars are the scientific standard for weights and measures is really amusing. Your belief that consumer products are scientifically accurate to 0.1 mL is also amusing.
I know all the laboratories I've seen don't have graduated cylinders lying around, they use mason jars for all of their super precise measurements.
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother attempting this experiment unless I had the proper equipment. A graduated cylinder is one, a triple beam balance is the other.
Edited: A little digression off topic is ok, but there's a limit to what people will tolerate. The reason Baba suggested to take it to the chemistry forum is because this has been off-topic for too long now. You've seen on average a 2% deviation, and at most a 4% deviation from standard, which is hardly enough to significantly throw off a substrate recipe. Pretending all of this is directly relative to the cultivation of Panaeolus mushrooms is a REALLY big stretch. +/- 2% - 4% volume of water is not going to make or break a grow, and how easy is it to simply adjust the amount of water next time?
Myc Hunt, you and hindsight are making me jelly with that organization! Since I just learned about this yesterday, I'm looking for any confirmation or rejection about using water agar leading up to transferring for storage. TIA!
Edited by ruawakeyet (10/14/22 04:52 PM)
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ghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27999043 - 10/14/22 04:49 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Baba Yaga said: Air pressure is playing a role as well so we are talking @ sea level and temp @ about 4C.
The elevation of Paris, where the metric system was invented, is 108' above sea-level. Granted, where I am in Indiana is 330' or so above that, but it is not enough to explain the different in weight.
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elpico
Stranger

Registered: 11/28/16
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] 2
#27999054 - 10/14/22 04:55 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Love the clean-looking vial racks. That one that Myc Hunt is showing looks stackable as well? Over the past few years I have amassed a disturbing number of cultures in vials. Many are clones but most are MS cultures from prints I germinated but didn't have time to grow out. My storage system is something like this:

@ruawakeyet - For reasons you mentioned, I first tried using water agar to grow out and isolate cultures for distilled water storage. I found the mycelial growth to be so fine and wispy that I was concerned I wouldn't have enough mycelium in the storage vial. I used standard MEA instead, but haven't noticed a problem with viability among the cultures I've revived(which is only a fraction of what I have stored).
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ghiajake
Myco-Viking


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27999058 - 10/14/22 04:58 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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ruawakeyet said: Don't worry, I took my own advice and made a new post in Chemistry, linking the entire discussion up until these last two comments. The two units literally define each other.
You measured 981 mLs and are insisting it MUST be 1,000 mLs.
Your flask CLEARLY states: "APPROX." That is NOT exact, it's telling you as much. Your assertion that mason jars are the scientific standard for weights and measures is really amusing. Your belief that consumer products are scientifically accurate to 0.1 mL is also amusing.
I know all the laboratories I've seen don't have graduated cylinders lying around, they use mason jars for all of their super precise measurements.
Honestly, I wouldn't even bother attempting this experiment unless I had the proper equipment. A graduated cylinder is one, a triple beam balance is the other.
Edited: A little digression off topic is ok, but there's a limit to what people will tolerate. The reason Baba suggested to take it to the chemistry forum is because this has been off-topic for too long now. You've seen on average a 2% deviation, and at most a 4% deviation from standard, which is hardly enough to significantly throw off a substrate recipe. Pretending all of this is directly relative to the cultivation of Panaeolus mushrooms is a REALLY big stretch. +/- 2% - 4% volume of water is not going to make or break a grow, and how easy is it to simply adjust the amount of water next time?
Myc Hunt, you and hindsight are making me jelly with that organization! Since I just learned about this yesterday, I'm looking for any confirmation or rejection about using water agar leading up to transferring for storage. TIA!
Ok smartass. Since you keep harping on the mason jar thing while ignoring that Erlenmeyer flasks ARE used in chemical labs... Here you go, since you put so much stock in graduated cylinders.
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake] 1
#27999071 - 10/14/22 05:01 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ghiajake said:
Quote:
Baba Yaga said: Air pressure is playing a role as well so we are talking @ sea level and temp @ about 4C.
The elevation of Paris, where the metric system was invented, is 108' above sea-level. Granted, where I am in Indiana is 330' or so above that, but it is not enough to explain the different in weight.
I disagree with Baba on the relevance of air pressure on water density. The effects are as negligible as dissolved gases are. None of us amateurs have sensitive enough equipment to measure the differences air pressure plays on water density.
Elpico, thanks for sharing your experience with water agar. I haven't made any yet, but I do have some black tea plates ready to go that I'll try first. I'm interested in the anti-bacterial properties at this time more than long term storage, because I'm already anticipating very bacterial germ plates based on past attempts from these prints. Long term storage will be my next goal once I isolated some winning cultures.
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ghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake]
#27999072 - 10/14/22 05:01 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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And if you're going to take my conversation somewhere else, post a link to it so I can make sure you're accurately representing my argument.
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27999083 - 10/14/22 05:07 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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It doesn't look like the meniscus is aligned with the 250 mL mark, and there's no temperature shown.
Which has more mass? 1,000 grams of water at 4 degrees C, or 1,000 grams of water at 30 degrees C? Which has more volume?
I literally linked to the direct comments. It's in the chemistry forum. I don't lie about what you say, unlike you. I love all of your projection.
Edit: That flask I'm sure is used in laboratories, but for mixing, not precise measuring. You keep ignoring that "APPROX." mark that is stamped on the flask, as if that doesn't mean anything.
Edited by ruawakeyet (10/14/22 05:11 PM)
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ghiajake
Myco-Viking


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27999092 - 10/14/22 05:14 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ruawakeyet said: It doesn't look like the meniscus is aligned with the 250 mL mark, and there's no temperature shown.
Which has more mass? 1,000 grams of water at 4 degrees C, or 1,000 grams of water at 30 degrees C? Which has more volume?
I literally linked to the direct comments. It's in the chemistry forum. I don't lie about what you say, unlike you. I love all of your projection.
Edit: That flask I'm sure is used in laboratories, but for mixing, not precise measuring. You keep ignoring that "APPROX." mark that is stamped on the flask, as if that doesn't mean anything.
You didn't link shit dude, and not once have I called you a liar. Talk about projection... Keep to the topic and save your ad hominin personal attacks for Fakebook. Link the fucking thread or take my words down from your posts. I did not give you permission to use them.
And I posted a pic of my graduated cylinder showing the weight was off by 4 grams. But you conveniently ignored that.
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ghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake]
#27999101 - 10/14/22 05:19 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Am I suppose to believe this shit isn't you making personal attacks against me because you disagree with my words?
Quote:
ruawakeyet said: A user questioned the old scientifically accepted standard that a liter of water weighs a kilogram. Of course I don't accept that, because they literally define each other.
Here's what followed, if any one cares to kill brain cells and "weigh" in on this matter:
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake]
#27999146 - 10/14/22 05:50 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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You claimed I said that mason jars are made from the same molds as flasks. I did not. You accused me of distorting your words, I never did. Do you know what linking means? I didn't even copy and paste your words, I linked to these comments above. Do I need your permission to link to your comments?
How did I ignore your sketchy ass results when I pointed out two flaws in your scientific process. Graduated cylinders have a certain way to be read, and it depends on lining up the meniscus with the graduation. I'm still trying to get you to understand that temperature affects water density, which affects the volume. There's no temperature reading, and I don't see condensation on the cylinder leading me to believe the water temperature is around room temperature or above. With 249 mLs of warm water, I would expect it to weigh around 246 grams. I also don't know if that spilled water was there when the scale was tared, there's simply too many variables not addressed.
This is still a cultivation thread, is it not? I tried to move the discussion to an appropriate forum, did I not?
I'm not even going to challenge you anymore. If you want to boast about debunking a core aspect of the metric system while ignoring every relevant scientific detail, go right ahead. I was only trying to save you some embarrassment. I honestly thought you would see it when I pointed out the flask says APPROX. on it, but that's when you hardened your defenses and started pulling out some artillery!
Go ahead and announce it to everyone here: If you are measuring your water using a scale, don't forget to subtract 2% to 4% to account for the inaccuracy of the metric system. Or you can just eyeball it since volume measurements are obviously the most precise method.
In other news, I just streaked some plates and have officially kicked off a new grow.
Edited by ruawakeyet (10/14/22 05:58 PM)
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LogicaL Chaos
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs




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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] 2
#27999160 - 10/14/22 05:57 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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If you are gonna put it in a PC, might wanna upgrade to clear "waterproof tape". A little spendy, buts its pretty thick and looks durable enough for a PC cycle.
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: LogicaL Chaos] 1
#27999173 - 10/14/22 06:03 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
LogicaL Chaos said: If you are gonna put it in a PC, might wanna upgrade to clear "waterproof tape". A little spendy, buts its pretty thick and looks durable enough for a PC cycle.
Good suggestion, but I'll just label stuff after the PCer. If you look at how I do a lot of things, you'll see I'm cheap as fuck! 
I have used autoclave tape. It's kind of like masking tape, but it is made to survive 15 psi steam no problem. It even has black bars that appear indicating the sterilization cycle took place. I bought a roll years ago, and I don't remember how much it was, nor how much it is now.
I just put clear tape over the labels on my agar plates! Thanks again for the suggestion!
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Sillypj
Temporal Being

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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
#27999339 - 10/14/22 07:25 PM (1 year, 3 months ago) |
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ruawakeyet said: The Jarthas, (JakeOnCid's version of a Martha Stewart Greenhouse) are fairly easy to keep dialed in, as long as you have good control of your ambient environment. Hindsight details this very well in his latest journal write-up, and speaks to the importance of it.
I think most growers will begin trying to dial in their tent setup with empty trays while their grain or sub colonizes. That way they are at least close after spending a few days running it and monitoring the surface conditions on the empty trays.
I hope you don't give up on the JCM FC yet. I've seen a lot of killer canopies come out of them. I think regardless of what kind of FC is used, ambient environment control is critical to the function of the FC.
I think your right.. Its time to focus on the ambient temp and give the tent another shot.. I have a couple tiny pins forming now, but at day 11 I am not sure how much more joy I should expect with the run. Here are a couple more photos from tonight, you can see the classic bluing on the myc now too.
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