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OfflineSillypj
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] * 4
    #27997487 - 10/13/22 07:59 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Zero pins.  The surface is moist, trays are decent weight.  Thanks for the welcome.  Like others I had amazing results out the gate about two years ago.  Lots of decent runs in between too. This is my first time using this type of chamber, so I wasn't sure if others have seen longer than normal pinset times.  The sub is about 1 1/2" thick, and looks darn healthy to me.  Nine days without a single pin just seems long.

Here's a pic for Lionheart, I ran this in a modified mono (computer fan and mister on timers) a couple months ago.  Lots of water seems to be the trick with that one..



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Edited by Sillypj (10/13/22 08:01 PM)


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Sillypj]
    #27997575 - 10/13/22 08:44 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sillypj said:
Here's a pic for Lionheart, I ran this in a modified mono (computer fan and mister on timers) a couple months ago.  Lots of water seems to be the trick with that one..






Those bispos are nice. It looks like you had a working system, did you just want to expand or try something different? Do you still have that same automated mono? If so, you could fire that back up and put those trays in it and see if they pin or not.

I know I'm just shooting in the dark, but I wonder if you're getting enough evaporation to induce pinning? That's the thing I always wondered about JCM FCs, the conditions are almost too stable, and it might just have too much humidity to allow for ample evap. Did you include the holes in the lid? IIRC, JCM stressed the importance of those holes.


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Offlineghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: PanMax]
    #27997733 - 10/13/22 09:55 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PanMax said:
How do you measure coir by volume?  Stupid question, I'm sure, but if it comes in a brick, do you add water to it first and THEN measure by volume??

Thank you!





I just stopped measuring by volume.... I weigh both dry media and the water separately based on a standard 73-74% moisture level. But keep in mind that the gram weight and mL volume of modern filtered water do not match. A liter of my tap water weighs around 960g. whomever in the past said that 1L=1kg must have used muddy water...


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake] * 1
    #27997766 - 10/13/22 10:19 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Did you check it at 4 degrees C? The density of water changes with temperature, as well as dissolved solids. Now I have to look up if dissolved gases change the density of water... (Dissolved gases do not significantly change the density of water.)

(Edited 25 to 4 degrees C. I guess 4 degrees C, or 39.2 degrees F is the temperature that pure water is exactly 1 gram/mL.)


Edited by ruawakeyet (10/13/22 10:25 PM)


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Offlineghiajake
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27997812 - 10/13/22 11:01 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ruawakeyet said:
Did you check it at 4 degrees C? The density of water changes with temperature, as well as dissolved solids. Now I have to look up if dissolved gases change the density of water... (Dissolved gases do not significantly change the density of water.)

(Edited 25 to 4 degrees C. I guess 4 degrees C, or 39.2 degrees F is the temperature that pure water is exactly 1 gram/mL.)




I have not, but since I love experimentation we shall see. I currently have water from my dehumidifier with 14ppm dissolved solids chilling to 38F in my fridge.


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ghiajake]
    #27997847 - 10/13/22 11:29 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

That's awesome!

If I had a graduated beaker I would join you in testing.


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Invisibleekabpils
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Registered: 10/20/21
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] * 11
    #27997914 - 10/14/22 12:27 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Two different isolated NecD cultures taken from the same print:



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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ekabpils]
    #27997938 - 10/14/22 12:46 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Dang, ekabpils! You're killing it, AND showing a great example of variety between different cultures. The PHV I've played around with showed the same kind of variance depending on what culture it was.

I wonder if Jake's forced hybrids are exhibiting more genetic variety than non-crossed species. Hindsight had that NEC D culture that looked all white. One of my PHV cultures were all mutants, it makes me think some genetic freaks should be expected to pop up here and there.

A particularly large fruit producing culture, and/or a particularly potent fruit producing culture could be found by accident any day now. Imagine SuperPans! Jake might have to cross NEC D with PHV, for science!


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Invisibleekabpils
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] * 1
    #27998078 - 10/14/22 05:47 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ruawakeyet said:
Dang, ekabpils! You're killing it, AND showing a great example of variety between different cultures. The PHV I've played around with showed the same kind of variance depending on what culture it was.

I wonder if Jake's forced hybrids are exhibiting more genetic variety than non-crossed species. Hindsight had that NEC D culture that looked all white. One of my PHV cultures were all mutants, it makes me think some genetic freaks should be expected to pop up here and there.

A particularly large fruit producing culture, and/or a particularly potent fruit producing culture could be found by accident any day now. Imagine SuperPans! Jake might have to cross NEC D with PHV, for science!




Even on agar they look different. Left - thin, right thick:



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OfflineSillypj
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Registered: 09/19/22
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] * 2
    #27998098 - 10/14/22 06:08 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I've run a few chambers with similar designs, however my successful projects required me to constantly change settings to keep things moving along.  The smaller the setup, the more fine tuning seems to be needed. I was hoping the bubbler technique would make things easier (I think my problem with it is the change in temps outside the tub, my house fluctuates from 71-76 degrees, so with a 80deg setting around the clock the humidity fluctuates quite a bit) I do have the shotgun holes on 2" grid in the lid.

Early on I actually set up a large martha tent, but was too early at the game to properly dial it in and ended up dismantling it.

Over the past three years I have made lots of attempts to get smaller chambers dialed in, and although there are lots of people that have good results, I just think I am missing the target environmental conditions. 

My current thinking based on all my observations may still be incorrect.

What I am thinking is that the mister needs to be strong enough to decently dampen the surface of the cake in a set time, followed by a period where that moisture then evaporated with the mist off.  That cycle needs to be repeated over and over again in a oxygen rich environment that is made possible by removing the CO2 from the environment almost constantly with a fan or vacuum setup. 

I guess the thought of course, is to recreate the environment of a cow pasture.  I have seen Pans in the wild.  They grow in deep grass (1 foot tall) that is wet almost always from dew.  Those areas are usually a bit shady, but not dark. The breeze can reach the surface of the fruiting area on a regular basis, providing a nice constant air flow.  In the wild they often look like half golf balls floating in the air, so that is certainly their "happy place".


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ekabpils] * 1
    #27998118 - 10/14/22 06:33 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ekabpils said:
Two different isolated NecD cultures taken from the same print:






Beautiful trays! Those are some thick stipes!


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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Sillypj]
    #27998372 - 10/14/22 09:51 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sillypj said:
The smaller the setup, the more fine tuning seems to be needed. I was hoping the bubbler technique would make things easier (I think my problem with it is the change in temps outside the tub, my house fluctuates from 71-76 degrees, so with a 80deg setting around the clock the humidity fluctuates quite a bit) I do have the shotgun holes on 2" grid in the lid.

My current thinking based on all my observations may still be incorrect.

What I am thinking is that the mister needs to be strong enough to decently dampen the surface of the cake in a set time, followed by a period where that moisture then evaporated with the mist off.  That cycle needs to be repeated over and over again in a oxygen rich environment that is made possible by removing the CO2 from the environment almost constantly with a fan or vacuum setup.




I think you're right about the smaller the fruiting chamber (FC) is, the harder it is to dial it in.

As I recall, JCM recommended keeping the room air temperature within a few degrees of the FC, so if it's set to 80, the room shouldn't dip below around 77. He and others talked about the excess condensation that occurs with larger temperature deltas.

Have you read JOC Tek yet? JakeOnCid really pioneered the fog/evap cycling for pans. I know cycling is used by commercial edible growers, but pans run different cycles compared to most other mushrooms. Reading that is what gave me a good understanding of what surface conditions pans want. (If you do enough reading, you might have dreams of successfully growing pans like I did. That's when I knew I was going to succeed!)

As far as terms go, there are humidifiers (wicking; warm mist; or ultrasonic), a mister to me is a hand-held sprayer, and a fogger is what is used by many for automated pan grows. Foggers use ultrasonic discs that create an ultra fine mist, and this is the preferred way to hydrate the casing layer and pan fruits.

There's a website that most go to, as they make some of the best ultrasonic foggers. I don't think I can name it here, but it's initials are HOH. You shouldn't have any problem finding it. They have a bunch of videos, tutorials, and FAQs. I currently only own a single disc fogger, which almost supplied enough fog for 10 trays in a flat plane, with a central fog distribution. You can view my posts and see the setup I used to have.

I really need to buy at least one more single disc fogger to feed what I want to do, but I should have purchased the 3 disc fogger to begin with. I'm not sure what direction I will go, but it'll depend on what I can afford.

In terms of air exchange, fresh air is all that is needed. Once I rebuild my fruiting room, I will have an exhaust to push the really humid, spore-laden air directly outside the house. (Thanks to Hindsight for pointing out the importance of the exhaust! I suggest reading his Fruiting Tent write-up in his journal.)

Whenever it runs, that will pull fresh air from outside into the house, then eventually into the fruiting room. I do have an indoor vegetable garden that should help supply additional oxygen, but that is mainly to produce some food, the added O2 is just a bonus. I wouldn't consider sourcing an oxygen concentrator or bottle, no CO2 scrubbers or anything like that.

Of course, getting back to trying to get those trays to pin. Do you have an electric heater you could heat one room with? If you can raise the temperature of your room, and keep it from fluctuating as much, you might get more evaporation...


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OfflineAdas
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Lionheart1212]
    #27998380 - 10/14/22 09:56 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lionheart1212 said:
Growing some Pan Bis. Any tips? Just knocked up some Millet today from LC.
have a martha style tent set up with humid and fan on timers.




You just have to have it dialed in right, and it should pin within a week or a bit more. I have never messed with automated systems, you can grow Bisporus with my "broke boi Bisporus" TEK - in my signature.


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OfflineSillypj
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet]
    #27998513 - 10/14/22 11:47 AM (1 year, 3 months ago)

There may actually be a couple tiny pins in the middle of that larger cake.  I will get better look when I get home today.  Temp stabilization will likely be a good way to better conditions for sure. That swing makes the humidity level change in the bubbler setup for sure.

For those of you using the JOK Tek or Martha Type setups, do you find it fairly easy to dial in and keep dialed in?  My work up to the fruiting stage is solid, its the chamber that keeps killing my progress.  My first attempt at a Martha setup relied on a simple room humidifier that wasn't adequate to supply the moisture needed for sure.  I gave up too easy..


--------------------



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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Sillypj]
    #27998547 - 10/14/22 12:09 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

The Jarthas, (JakeOnCid's version of a Martha Stewart Greenhouse) are fairly easy to keep dialed in, as long as you have good control of your ambient environment. Hindsight details this very well in his latest journal write-up, and speaks to the importance of it.

I think most growers will begin trying to dial in their tent setup with empty trays while their grain or sub colonizes. That way they are at least close after spending a few days running it and monitoring the surface conditions on the empty trays.

I hope you don't give up on the JCM FC yet. I've seen a lot of killer canopies come out of them. I think regardless of what kind of FC is used, ambient environment control is critical to the function of the FC.


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Invisibleelpico
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Sillypj] * 4
    #27998556 - 10/14/22 12:11 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Thought I'd share a little method I've worked out for long-term storage/revival of pan cultures(and other species as well).  I put colonized agar wedges in 2 ml vials with dH2O and store at room temperature.  This is a pan BVI MS culture that was about  a year and a half in storage.  I shook the vial up well, and in front of a hood I pipetted 100-200uL of liquid into a small 4 oz jar of WBS.  Took a bit to wake up, but now I have clean colonized grain ready to go. Because I transferred only a very small volume of LI, the 2 ml vial can continue to function as a storage vial.



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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: elpico] * 5
    #27998571 - 10/14/22 12:18 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I do the same, though I go to agar instead of grain to revive - just to ensure cleanliness but I'm probably going to stop doing that because I haven't had a single issue yet. I have created quite a library of clone cultures and it keeps growing.



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Invisibleruawakeyet
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: elpico] * 1
    #27998586 - 10/14/22 12:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I love it!!!! Had I known this last year, I could have kept my giant producing PHV culture. (I guess I'll just have to isolate another winning culture at some point.)

I just read about water agar last night, and is the only thing I can add to this long term storage method. My understanding is that you want to eliminate any and all nutrition sources, so it basically goes into hibernation. (There are probably correct terms for all of this...)

Water agar is a great step to get clean mycelium on nutrient-free agar, then use those transfers for the long term storage in the distilled water.

(Another use for water agar is to let the myc outrun bacteria before transferring back to nutrient agar before taking it to grain.)

Hindsight, that library is awesome as fuck!


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InvisibleSwabMarleyS
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight]
    #27998587 - 10/14/22 12:24 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hindsight said:
I do the same, though I go to agar instead of grain to revive - just to ensure cleanliness but I'm probably going to stop doing that because I haven't had a single issue yet. I have created quite a library of clone cultures and it keeps growing.





Loving the addition of the Label Maker for identification! Need to dig mine out…


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OfflineHindsight
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: SwabMarley] * 1
    #27998594 - 10/14/22 12:28 PM (1 year, 3 months ago)

I use it for everything - every plate, vial, jar, tub.... all use it. Very handy.


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