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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 3,958
Loc: Hyperspace Chicken Coop
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher]
#27621861 - 01/17/22 01:24 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
moonwatcher said: My first ever pan pin! However, I'm not sure he's gonna make it, grows a bit too slowly (I think) and is chubby + fuzzy. Will see. Experimenting with various substrates, this is potting soil (and the casing is potting soil too).

This should be a better pinset & not just 1 lonely pin, lots of knotting, which I'm not sure is very visible on a pic:

Having lots of trouble dialing in the humidity, I'm starting to think that primordia form most readily during a very dry phase but then the actual bodies start growing fast when the casing gets soggy. Makes sense when you consider how quickly some mushrooms emerge after a rain.
Congrat on the first pin(s) I think I see another one in the second picture.
How are you fruiting these? JMC-FC? Try keeping the casing as thin as possible as well as evenly thick and level surface.
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moonwatcher


Registered: 09/09/21
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27621876 - 01/17/22 02:05 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Thanks, I don't think there are any real pins on the second picture, unfortunately the discolored perlite in the soil creates a lot of potential for hallucinating pins haha, happens all the time as I inspect the trays first thing in the morning
I don't have any fruiting chambers, etc, and it's really cold right now in the winter (about 68 F), so I'm fruiting them in the oven which I never use for cooking. Keeping the light in the oven on keeps the temp around 78 F and also I put cardboard on the edge of the door to create a small crack for FAE. I have a humidity meter so I'm keeping the RH to around 85%, with the door fully closed it goes to 99% after misting. I sometimes turn the fan in the oven on to circulate air haha.
Will see how it goes, so far the whole thing is obviously too experimental for a first grow. Soon I'll get composted manure which I found in a nearby store, so my next jars will be spawned to something more proven than a potting soil. However I really don't want to bother with peat, verm and carbonate, but will if I have to. Since this is a hobby for me I don't really mind wasting time with experiments.
With this particular grow what I think I should have done differently is 1) cut the potting soil with coir and 2) include ca carbonate in the soil casing, I think it performs other functions apart from correcting the low pH of peat. At the very least it makes the casing more airy. But maybe also prevent oxalate crystals from forming on the myc and absorb CO2 (from what I've read about other species).
Edited by moonwatcher (01/17/22 02:09 AM)
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 3,958
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher] 1
#27621898 - 01/17/22 03:21 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Oh wow lol, would be cool if you pull this off. But it sounds and looks like conditions are too dry.
Composted manure will be an improvement to potting soil as substrate. Peat verm works great but your potting soil might be an alternative as well I mean you got pins in those conditions so the casing seems OK, I heard someone was using sand. Main thing is to apply it thin. I would give 50/50 casing a try though, just to see how other things influence the grow. If your room stays at 68F and doesn't get any colder then try a mono tub as well if you have one, 68F is borderline but I had pins popping up at that temp.
Please keep us updated, curious to see where this goes.
FYI: calcium carbonate doesn't adsorb CO2 it actually releases CO2 in acidic conditions. It won't be much though, CO2 is not really a concern IMO.
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angam
Ad astra per stercoris...

Registered: 10/01/19
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher] 9
#27621901 - 01/17/22 03:23 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Finally my first Florida Bunnell! The magic is to keep track of their growth.
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moonwatcher


Registered: 09/09/21
Posts: 41
Last seen: 5 days, 18 hours
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: angam]
#27621908 - 01/17/22 03:55 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
FYI: calcium carbonate doesn't adsorb CO2 it actually releases CO2 in acidic conditions. It won't be much though, CO2 is not really a concern IMO.
Yes it reacts with acids to release CO2, that's true, however when water is present it also absorbs CO2 to turn into calcium BIcarbonate, which only exists in water solution, so that's kind of interesting. Just like sodium carbonate absorbs CO2 to turn into baking soda. I dunno, I just find it strange that materials with very good mechanical properties (coir) are regarded as a poor casing choice for pans, which leads me to think there may be something to the calcium added (could just be the bacterial activity in peat as well I dunno).
BTW I browsed some old pan teks from 2001 and they often recommend compost, in fact one states that compost is best and manure is second best. Seems like you're one of the few people using compost(and you're obviously having good success with it). Those old teks also talk about casing with the same bulk sub, i.e wait for consolidation and case again with manure or compost, which I found really interesting and goes against the whole 'non-nutritious casing layer' thing. When you think about it, in nature pans mostly fruit straight from dung and there isn't a separate casing layer. Will report back the results of my experiments for sure.
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0t0lerance



Registered: 05/01/21
Posts: 962
Loc: The Netherlands
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: angam]
#27621974 - 01/17/22 06:48 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
angam said: Finally my first Florida Bunnell! The magic is to keep track of their growth.

Beautiful. Can't wait to also start growing pan cyan
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 3,958
Loc: Hyperspace Chicken Coop
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher] 1
#27622179 - 01/17/22 10:02 AM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
moonwatcher said:
Quote:
FYI: calcium carbonate doesn't adsorb CO2 it actually releases CO2 in acidic conditions. It won't be much though, CO2 is not really a concern IMO.
Yes it reacts with acids to release CO2, that's true, however when water is present it also absorbs CO2 to turn into calcium BIcarbonate, which only exists in water solution, so that's kind of interesting. Just like sodium carbonate absorbs CO2 to turn into baking soda. I dunno, I just find it strange that materials with very good mechanical properties (coir) are regarded as a poor casing choice for pans, which leads me to think there may be something to the calcium added (could just be the bacterial activity in peat as well I dunno).
BTW I browsed some old pan teks from 2001 and they often recommend compost, in fact one states that compost is best and manure is second best. Seems like you're one of the few people using compost(and you're obviously having good success with it). Those old teks also talk about casing with the same bulk sub, i.e wait for consolidation and case again with manure or compost, which I found really interesting and goes against the whole 'non-nutritious casing layer' thing. When you think about it, in nature pans mostly fruit straight from dung and there isn't a separate casing layer. Will report back the results of my experiments for sure.
Yes, thanks you are right, its a pH dependent balance reaction. Yeah not sure if calcium has that much of an effect but by all means do a few tests. I think other casing materials can work as well and are on the list of things to try for me once I got my tubs down.
At the moment I'm playing around with providing restricted FAE during colonization, so far it seems to work well and I have a feeling that with this method it will be not as important what casing material is used as pinning is not happening directly on the surface and the casing just acts to prevent the surface from drying out. I am thinking a lot about what triggers pinning out in nature, how the mycelium grows/reacts and what the conditions are inside of a horse turd lol.
Compost works nicely, the stuff I use has added chicken manure in it and so far it produced as well as h-manure based subs. All my next 9 tubs will be compost/coir. If this works OK then I will say goodby to h-manure and test some different types of compost.
What is your experience level with mushroom cultivation? Just remember that clean spawn is absolute the most important thing in this hobby, if you can't produce clean spawn then all the testing is for nothing.
blah, blah, blah 
Have you got links to those old TEKs you were talking about?
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moonwatcher


Registered: 09/09/21
Posts: 41
Last seen: 5 days, 18 hours
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga]
#27622379 - 01/17/22 12:25 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
Baba Yaga said:
Quote:
moonwatcher said:
Quote:
FYI: calcium carbonate doesn't adsorb CO2 it actually releases CO2 in acidic conditions. It won't be much though, CO2 is not really a concern IMO.
Yes it reacts with acids to release CO2, that's true, however when water is present it also absorbs CO2 to turn into calcium BIcarbonate, which only exists in water solution, so that's kind of interesting. Just like sodium carbonate absorbs CO2 to turn into baking soda. I dunno, I just find it strange that materials with very good mechanical properties (coir) are regarded as a poor casing choice for pans, which leads me to think there may be something to the calcium added (could just be the bacterial activity in peat as well I dunno).
BTW I browsed some old pan teks from 2001 and they often recommend compost, in fact one states that compost is best and manure is second best. Seems like you're one of the few people using compost(and you're obviously having good success with it). Those old teks also talk about casing with the same bulk sub, i.e wait for consolidation and case again with manure or compost, which I found really interesting and goes against the whole 'non-nutritious casing layer' thing. When you think about it, in nature pans mostly fruit straight from dung and there isn't a separate casing layer. Will report back the results of my experiments for sure.
Yes, thanks you are right, its a pH dependent balance reaction. Yeah not sure if calcium has that much of an effect but by all means do a few tests. I think other casing materials can work as well and are on the list of things to try for me once I got my tubs down.
At the moment I'm playing around with providing restricted FAE during colonization, so far it seems to work well and I have a feeling that with this method it will be not as important what casing material is used as pinning is not happening directly on the surface and the casing just acts to prevent the surface from drying out. I am thinking a lot about what triggers pinning out in nature, how the mycelium grows/reacts and what the conditions are inside of a horse turd lol.
Compost works nicely, the stuff I use has added chicken manure in it and so far it produced as well as h-manure based subs. All my next 9 tubs will be compost/coir. If this works OK then I will say goodby to h-manure and test some different types of compost.
What is your experience level with mushroom cultivation? Just remember that clean spawn is absolute the most important thing in this hobby, if you can't produce clean spawn then all the testing is for nothing.
blah, blah, blah 
Have you got links to those old TEKs you were talking about?
Yes I know the importance of clean spawn, this is a different rabbit hole I've been going down into, namely the inability of pans to 'store' or keep well in the fridge. With cubes I've kept spawn in the fridge for a year and once spawned to bulk it fruits just fine, seems like thats not the case with pans. I actually made a lot of pan LC, seems like it stores better, but will see.
As to the old teks, they are from a different forum (and archived) so I dunno if I am allowed to link to them, but I'll paste you a few excerpts (from 2001) you can easily find the original with a g search:
"The next step is to use that substrate as spawn to colonize either dung or compost. Compost is your best bet. Dung is the next choice. A lot of old books recommends straw, well straw also works but it contaminates much easier on straw then dung or compost.
Use a plastic tray…Mix all your spawn with zoodoo/compost or dung/compost. I use 8 jars to 5 pounds of that. If you use any store bought compost…strain out all the wood,…sticks..woodchips..etc. You can nuke your dung/compost in a microwave for 10 minutes. If you have obtained dung or compost from a garden…Pasteurize it.
Once you have done all this…cover your trays and let them sit for a couple days. Now…check out your trays….do you see mycelium growing? If so…what I do is…case them with a layer of the same dung/compost. Use about a ¼ inch only. Give them a GOOD misting and give them light."
As you can see, things haven't changed much in 20 years Well, it doesn't make sense that they would of course when you think about it
Edited by moonwatcher (01/17/22 12:33 PM)
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Baba Yaga
♥ coir grower

Registered: 09/13/20
Posts: 3,958
Loc: Hyperspace Chicken Coop
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: moonwatcher] 2
#27622497 - 01/17/22 01:49 PM (2 years, 12 days ago) |
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OK I read the TEK, the growing part sounds alright and I would say sure give it a go but the preparation side of this TEK is dodgy. I would never use spores directly to grain (same for LC) and would always pasteurize my substrate to make sure it is 100% OK to use, zapping it in the microwave is not a good prep.
Are you using agar?
If your outdoor temps are alright then you can have a go at the method below as well.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26424109#26424109
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ruawakeyet


Registered: 05/03/21
Posts: 1,862
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Baba Yaga] 1
#27623263 - 01/18/22 07:54 AM (2 years, 11 days ago) |
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I first started reading old teks for pans, and learned to ignore most of the archived information. There is a lot of outdated information in contradiction with the updated info, and trying to follow it doesn't make anything easier.
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coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: ruawakeyet] 2
#27623317 - 01/18/22 09:23 AM (2 years, 11 days ago) |
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Talking of teks and outdated info etc, I think I might periodically post this here for new comers to pans:
McMerdin's tek is a really awesome and simple way to have a go at pans for the first time. I first ran it thinking I would then move on to the bulk teks, but it grows me more than enough pans so am very please to stick with it.
It's basically the PF tek plus Hpoo. McMerdin even fruits in a SGFC, but it works great with more pantastic fruiting approaches.
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rockyfungus
dirty


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall]
#27623729 - 01/18/22 03:56 PM (2 years, 11 days ago) |
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Elric
Pennypincher



Registered: 06/13/21
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-------------------- ~Elric~
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Hindsight
Mad Scientist


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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Elric]
#27623805 - 01/18/22 05:03 PM (2 years, 11 days ago) |
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Solid flush!
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Elric
Pennypincher



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Hindsight] 1
#27623811 - 01/18/22 05:13 PM (2 years, 11 days ago) |
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First run with this one, will see what another few runs brings!
-------------------- ~Elric~
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coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Elric] 1
#27624123 - 01/19/22 02:38 AM (2 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Elric said:


berry nice! But come on, give us some details!
Variety? tek used?
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Adas
Lonely Dreamer



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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall]
#27624225 - 01/19/22 06:53 AM (2 years, 10 days ago) |
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Elric, those are gorgeous! The caps remind me of Bunnell Cyans!
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Elric
Pennypincher



Registered: 06/13/21
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall]
#27624237 - 01/19/22 07:07 AM (2 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
coversall said:
Quote:
Elric said:


berry nice! But come on, give us some details!
Variety? tek used?

Pan Cyan Texas - no fancy process, I just find goood cultures on Agar, throw into some millet jars, mix with 70 straw/30horse poo, normal pan casing. Throw in a jartha. I have migrated all my exotics fruiting to jarthas, they are def the best ime
-------------------- ~Elric~
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coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



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Posts: 2,749
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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: Elric]
#27624271 - 01/19/22 07:43 AM (2 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Elric said:
Quote:
coversall said:
Quote:
Elric said:


berry nice! But come on, give us some details!
Variety? tek used?

Pan Cyan Texas - no fancy process, I just find goood cultures on Agar, throw into some millet jars, mix with 70 straw/30horse poo, normal pan casing. Throw in a jartha. I have migrated all my exotics fruiting to jarthas, they are def the best ime
Texans are great, they've been consistent producers for me!
Nice job!
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angam
Ad astra per stercoris...

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Re: Official Copelandia/Panaeolus Thread [Re: coversall] 4
#27625593 - 01/20/22 10:10 AM (2 years, 9 days ago) |
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Edited by angam (01/20/22 10:11 AM)
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